[Official Testing] Updated EDU with all the "unofficial" fixes and many others

[GRANTO]

works now....good work QS. splendid!

[QuintusSertorius]

What do people think of the newer, lower cavalry speed boosts (particularly for lights)?

[GRANTO]

What do people think of the newer, lower cavalry speed boosts (particularly for lights)?

its very good ...the battles are much better and i can now concentrate on the BAI now ...great job so far .

[Saigrin]

At least I was able to play the mod, with your new EDU. It was fantastic! I've just started a new campaign with Makedonia, and the cavalry charges looked awesome, great work!

[QuintusSertorius]

At least I was able to play the mod, with your new EDU. It was fantastic! I've just started a new campaign with Makedonia, and the cavalry charges looked awesome, great work!

Great stuff! Bear in mind that phalangites are by no means complete, you'll find the different variants of wildly different capability.

[GRANTO]

Great stuff! Bear in mind that phalangites are by no means complete, you'll find the different variants of wildly different capability.

youv done wonders though QS .

[QuintusSertorius]

Now people have had some time to play with these changes, what's the view of light cavalry speeds?

They were definitely much too fast in the first couple of versions, but I think they're about right now. They should be notably faster than heavies, but not so fast they're like lightning around the battlefield. They should be able to outpace heavier cavalry, but not look like it's easy.

[Saigrin]

I've been playing with the AS, Carthage and Makedonia, none of them very rich in cavalry, but for the cases I've experienced, it seems ok for me.
I have one question about the phalanxes: I've noted they have been reworked, but the mercenaries have very different stats, as if untouched. Is it intended to have weak mercenary phalanxes, or is it a little mistake?

[QuintusSertorius]

I've been playing with the AS, Carthage and Makedonia, none of them very rich in cavalry, but for the cases I've experienced, it seems ok for me.
I have one question about the phalanxes: I've noted they have been reworked, but the mercenaries have very different stats, as if untouched. Is it intended to have weak mercenary phalanxes, or is it a little mistake?

All the phalangites are a work in progress - they've all got different stats trying out different things. So yes, it's not functional, but that's intentional.

[Saigrin]

Well, I don't know if this has been told yet, I'm talking again about my experience with the AS:

The Ioudaioi recruits are using the model from the Thureoporoi, and the pantodapoi phalanx are way more efficient than their pehzetaroi comrades, for the only reason they do not switch weapons. In most battles, when facing an homogeneous army, as for example the Nabateans, when resisting a frontal charge against the same troops, the pantodapoi phalanx suffers notably less casualties than their greek friends. It's great to see the troop switch weapons, but I feel they do it too soon, and the entire unit suffers from having the formation broken.

I only want to give some help, it's not a criticism.

I hope to see more news from you soon, team, keep on fighting! :D

[QuintusSertorius]

Well, I don't know if this has been told yet, I'm talking again about my experience with the AS:

The Ioudaioi recruits are using the model from the Thureoporoi, and the pantodapoi phalanx are way more efficient than their pehzetaroi comrades, for the only reason they do not switch weapons. In most battles, when facing an homogeneous army, as for example the Nabateans, when resisting a frontal charge against the same troops, the pantodapoi phalanx suffers notably less casualties than their greek friends. It's great to see the troop switch weapons, but I feel they do it too soon, and the entire unit suffers from having the formation broken.

I only want to give some help, it's not a criticism.

I hope to see more news from you soon, team, keep on fighting! :D

Observations, and even criticism are welcome - as I said it's all a work in progress. The Ioudaioi using Thureophoroi models is intended as a temporary measure, they'll have their own proper ones later.

Stats for the Pantodapoi Phalangitai are different to the Pezhetairoi (indeed only the mercenary Pezhetairoi still have the same stats), so they will had different performance. We haven't yet found a workable solution to the secondary weapons issue with pikemen, but all this feedback is useful, so keep it coming.

[Lizardo]

hi when I download its coming up as a .php file? what do I open with?
EDIT: problem rectified had to download with firefox instead IE downloads the files as attachment.php

[QuintusSertorius]

Could people post their specific observations with phalangitai (identifying which units you are talking about) in this thread, please? e're after details on their behaviour - do they use their pikes (or switch to swords too quickly), do they hold their formation, can they hold their ground and so on. Again, it needs to be with reference to specific units, they all have different stats.

[QuintusSertorius]

Not in a position to make another release of the EDU yet, but I've given the Numidian Bodyguard cavalry their javelins back and slowed down phalangitai a little (though not as slow as they were originally). Still trying to find solutions to the sword-switching issue.

Does anyone have any details of phalanxes/pikemen in other mods? There doesn't seem to be a middle ground between either too weak from the front or too strong on the flanks/rear.

[QuintusSertorius]

I think we've had a breakthrough on phalanx behaviour (courtesy of some work from another mod), I'm hoping to have another release soon with an improvement to them. We'll also be looking at infantry speeds generally, but that will be a subsequent release of this mod. I think the potential phalanx fix is significant enough in its own right to merit a release.

[QuintusSertorius]

I've uploaded a new EDU into the original post - phalanxes have been reverted to no secondary weapon and tweaked in some important ways and so should now (hopefully) perform the way they are supposed to. The differences between the types are mostly in their armour and morale, but the two "professional" types (Phalangitai and Misthophoroi Phalangitai) also have a slightly higher mass. Pantodapoi Phalangitai also have a slightly lower attack value. They're all slightly slower, at 0.65 compared to the 0.8 they had in the last edit.

As always, I'd appreciate feedback on how well (or not!) these changes work and specific observations on the behaviour of specific units.

As an incidental fix, I've also given Numidian bodyguard cavalry their javelins back, no idea why they'd been removed in the first place, but they're back again.

[MIKE GOLF]

Will test it out when I get back home.

[QuintusSertorius]

Infantry speeds more generally are the next issue I'm dealing with now phalanxes are in a stable and workable state. After that I'll look at elephants and finally chariots.

If anyone is interested in an update on what's in the official build, the cavalry speeds we were trialling earlier are now official. Cavalry shields are due to be revised soon (to be less effective against missiles).

[King Of Europe]

hi, will this amazing updated EDU be in the next "official" download for eb 2.01? I haven't tried it out but ive been following the thread and will defo instal the finished EDU, sounds amazing,

[QuintusSertorius]

hi, will this amazing updated EDU be in the next "official" download for eb 2.01? I haven't tried it out but ive been following the thread and will defo instal the finished EDU, sounds amazing,

Yes; cavalry speeds from this mod are now in the "trunk" build that will be in the next release. Essentially, things we're testing here that work are going to be adopted. We're currently looking at phalanxes and shortly infantry speeds.

You may be waiting a little while for the finished product - I'd recommend trying out the current one in custom battles to see what you think, if you don't want to hazard a campaign.

[QuintusSertorius]

New updated EDU - I've done a big clean-up of mount_effect bonuses. Javelin and archer cavalry had a bonus against other cavalry - upshot was they were performing far better than they should in melee (since the bonus works with all attacks). Same goes foot archers with cavalry and javelineers with elephants (reduced from +6 to +2). That should alter the balance in play quite a bit. It also explains why Illyrioi Hippeis were so awesome against even much better cavalry.

EDIT: @MIKE GOLF (or anyone else) Help! I've done something wrong again, I should have tested before issuing (rather than after), I get this error:

23:22:18.305 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/EBII/data/export_descr_unit.txt, at line 2497, column 1
Missing attributes field for unit type 'getic cavalry hippotoxotai'.

That's the "officer" line, not sure what's happened with things being moved around.

[Ibrahim]

New updated EDU - I've done a big clean-up of mount_effect bonuses. Javelin and archer cavalry had a bonus against other cavalry - upshot was they were performing far better than they should in melee (since the bonus works with all attacks). Same goes foot archers with cavalry and javelineers with elephants (reduced from +6 to +2). That should alter the balance in play quite a bit. It also explains why Illyrioi Hippeis were so awesome against even much better cavalry.

EDIT: @MIKE GOLF (or anyone else) Help! I've done something wrong again, I should have tested before issuing (rather than after), I get this error:



That's the "officer" line, not sure what's happened with things being moved around.

maybe the game is reading separate lines as a single one for some weird reason.

[QuintusSertorius]

Updated the EDU in the first post (thanks @Ibrahim), that should now be working for everyone to try. Anyone who downloaded EDIT4 from a couple of days ago should probably re-download, I don't think that one worked.

[Ozonius Tomicus]

I had tried the version a couple of days ago and at start-up logged the same error you did.

I downloaded and installed today's update and am happy to report that EBII is loading fine and am going to start a new game to try out the changes. Thanks!

[Ibrahim]

I had tried the version a couple of days ago and at start-up logged the same error you did.

I downloaded and installed today's update and am happy to report that EBII is loading fine and am going to start a new game to try out the changes. Thanks!

you bet!

yeah, it was as I suspected: a common bug with using notepad++; luckily it is easy to fix.

[QuintusSertorius]

Does anyone have feedback on the latest EDU? Phalanxes should be stable now, archers and javelineers (foot and cavalry) should no longer be unbalanced.

[Vermin]

My common or garden Epirot phalanxes seem to work well and my hippakontistai now get beaten by hellenic light lancers so I think it is much better balanced. I still have problems with foot skirmishers being caught by heavy foot - this seems to be caused by a few laggards not running quickly enough and the formation becoming stretched out as they evade. That is a relatively minor issue however.
Regards
Vermin

[QuintusSertorius]

My common or garden Epirot phalanxes seem to work well and my hippakontistai now get beaten by hellenic light lancers so I think it is much better balanced. I still have problems with foot skirmishers being caught by heavy foot - this seems to be caused by a few laggards not running quickly enough and the formation becoming stretched out as they evade. That is a relatively minor issue however.
Regards
Vermin

Infantry speeds are being revised, so hopefully this will be resolved. Not sure about the cohesion aspect, though.

[Ibrahim]

My common or garden Epirot phalanxes seem to work well and my hippakontistai now get beaten by hellenic light lancers so I think it is much better balanced. I still have problems with foot skirmishers being caught by heavy foot - this seems to be caused by a few laggards not running quickly enough and the formation becoming stretched out as they evade. That is a relatively minor issue however.
Regards
Vermin

all it took was changing cavalry speeds and formations only--the attack, defense, and armor were left as before. This is excellent news!

Anyways, as Quintus said, we're now working on infantry skirmisher speed: we have a base speed for all non-skirmishers, but need one for skirmishers. As to cohesion proper: there's relatively little we can do using the EDU itself, beyond the obvious balancing of speeds.

if all goes to plan, only other skirmishers and light (or at least fast) cavalry will be a serious problem to skirmishers

[QuintusSertorius]

all it took was changing cavalry speeds and formations only--the attack, defense, and armor were left as before. This is excellent news!

Also removing the mount_effect bonus that cavalry skirmishers (javelineers and archers) had against other cavalry. That was why Illyrioi Hippeis were so disproportionately good before I amended that.