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Thread: Clarkson gone!

  1. #151
    Forum Lurker Member Sir Moody's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clarkson gone!

    none of those articles are calling for a ban on games - they are (in a very hamfisted way) saying is that the gaming identity (i.e. the community) has a problem - that problem being harassment.

    These articles date back to the beginning of Gamersgate (these articles actually gave it its name) - basically the whole Quinnsipricary nonsense led to attacks on the Gaming press (under the now proven wrong accusation she slept with reporters to get good reviews) - in a typical response the gaming press circled the wagons and responded with the articles above - basically a knee jerk attack at those they saw turning on them - this of course blew up in their faces and turned into what we know as Gamersgate today.

    Not one article talked about censoring games - a lot bemoaned the "death" of the gamer identity (basically they were nostalgically longing for the 90's when the gaming community was FAR more niche and not as openly hostile to each other) but that isn't a call for censorship

  2. #152
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clarkson gone!

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    It might sound right to you, but being desensitized to fictional violence does not translate to being desensitized to real life violence, when Jack Thompson attempted to prove otherwise to the american courts it was dismissed as baseless. He tried again and failed again, doing it so many times so many times that he was disbarred.

    The sexism argument works on the same logic, as samaritan exhibits, so why would it be any more legitimate?
    As Moody explained, I didn't call for a ban on games. I pointed out to examples where games influenced behavior and findings of some respectable associations of experts claiming there is a causal link. You rejected it out of hand, without any logical explanation. "It was an attack on games and I like games" is not valid argument if you're older than three. It's not valid even then, but you can be forgiven.

    If you read the first post I wrote in the thread, my point is that sticking your head in the sand just because you are a gamer is wrong. Gaming community tends to act like you, refusing to even allow a discussion to be had.

    You're not even reading what was written. Instead, you are equating any criticism of status quo with an extreme criticism. What is next? If I say I like some communist ideals, you're gonna equate me with Pol Pot? And be happy how smart you are because you proved I'm a violent, murdering dictator?

    If you are interested in a serious discussion instead of juvenile exercise in self-aggrandizement, get back to me. Until then, so long.

  3. #153
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clarkson gone!

    Been busy and the thread has moved a lot since then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    The guy who has been supporting you with thanks and snide comments has just gone full Jack Thompson.

    I cant believe my bait actually worked, holy crap.
    Age 8, 14, 16. On games with age restriction 15. And you could see the reason for the age restrictions. It's a few steps below Jack Thompson.


    I got the feeling we should move on to that sexism in video games (and other forms of media) can have an influence on adult people? It seems to have moved in that direction and since you reject that notion and a lot of the debate is based on that it does have an influence...

    Does media exposure have any influence at all? Of course not, that's why all commercials are only informative and quite rare and not a major business. Are still busy, so digging through the research papers are going to take a while.

    For a starter: Huge quote incoming from "Keeping Abreast of Hypersexuality: A Video Game Character Content Analysis", since it's behind a paywall unless you have access.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Typically, children spend an hour per day playing, with girls devoting an average of 53 min and boys 68 min (KFF 2002). Another nationwide KFF survey (Roberts et al. 1999) found that 8- to 18-year-olds play video games 27 min a day, with boys spending considerably more time gaming than girls (41 min vs. 12 min, respectively). Thus, children may likely be exposed to many sexualized portrayals very early in their socio-emotional development.
    If video game content were sexualized in nature, what type of impact would portrayals of sexuality in video games have on youth? The growing body of literature on the influence of television on sexual socialization and stereotyping can give us some idea. Studies have shown that children begin to develop attitudes toward body types between the ages of six and seven years and as children get older these attitudes become stronger (Spitzer et al. 1999). Differences between female body sizes in the media and actual body sizes have been linked to eating disorders (Field et al. 1999), low self-esteem (Polce-Lynch et al. 2001), body dissatisfaction (Harrison and Cantor 1997), feelings of objectification (Frederickson and Roberts 1997), and to the attitude that women’s bodies are projects that need to be worked on (Brumberg 1997, c.f. Murnen et al. 2003). With effects such as these it should come as no surprise that one study noticed an inverse relationship between playing video/computer games and girls’ self-esteem scores (Funk and Buchman 1996).
    Females are not the only ones affected by unrealistic body images in the media. Portrayals of muscle-bound men may also set standards for male gamers. Such depictions may contribute to body dissatisfaction among some men, as well as such risky behaviors as steroid use (Labre 2002). Sexualized portrayals of women in the media have been linked to objectification, leading some males to view women and their bodies as possessions (Frederickson and Roberts 1997). Adolescent males’ learning to objectify women from media may lead to negative social, legal, and relational damage.
    Because hypersexualized video game characters may encourage or reinforce these negative effects, it is necessary to understand how this may occur. Social cognitive theory (Bandura 2002) provides a theoretical framework to understand how children and adolescents can learn attitudes and beliefs from exposure to video game characters. Bandura (2002) proposed that attention, retention, production, and motivation are processes that govern our ability to learn through observation.
    Attentional processes are those that determine which information and observed actions are extracted from a modeled, learning environment. Attractiveness is one variable that affects attentional processing. If a game character is perceived as attractive, observers may be more likely to find them socially acceptable and influential (Bandura 2002). A recent quote from a game reviewer suggests: “There’s no arguing that sex sells. And with the typical gamer a young adult male, you can’t really blame the industry for catering to their target audience” (Morris 2002, n.p.). Overtly sexual, provocatively dressed, or partially naked male or female characters may be very attractive, attention-getting attributes of video game play.
    Getting a gamer’s attention is not enough to invoke learning. Without the ability to symbolically code and retain information, Bandura argues (2002, p. 127) observational learning would not be possible. Retention processes involve restructuring modeled events into rules for memory (Bandura 2002). In video games, a player has the ability to witness how characters present themselves and interact with other characters over and over again. Recalling that 8- to 18-year-old males typically play video games for 41 min per day (Kaiser Family Foundation 2002), repeated exposure through extended play should make it very easy for a video game player to create, rehearse, and strengthen symbolic representations of events. Gender schema theory suggests (Calvert and Huston 1987) and subsequent research reveals that exposure to stereotyped, sexual interactions on television can provoke schema that categorize women as sexual, submissive, and less intelligent than their male counterparts (Thompson and Pleck 1986). As such, repeated exposure to attractive, scantly clad female characters may be problematic for young, male gamers’ sexual and relational development.
    Production processes “guide the construction and execution of behavior patterns” (Bandura 2002, p.129) which can then be compared to the symbolic representations stored in memory. In using a symbolic representation of a modeled act, a person can adapt it for use in a variety of different situations. Gamers could learn attitudes and beliefs about sex roles and gender stereotyping and apply them to real world situations they find themselves in each day. For example, if a game player notices that males in video games are active, problem-solving heroes and women are incapable and always needing help from men, sex-based stereotypes may manifest themselves in the home, school, or in other social circles.
    Motivational processes (Bandura 2002, pp. 129–130) revolve around a person’s ability to create, change, and modify his or her behavior within a social structure. If attitudes are shared by a peer group or reinforced the schemata are likely to be strengthened. Studies generally support this rationale in the violence domain. Children and adults who are exposed to models that are rewarded or not punished for violent actions are more likely to be aggressive immediately after viewing (Bandura 1965; Lando and Donnerstein 1978; Paik and Comstock 1994). Video games certainly contain reward mechanisms. Increases in scores, extra lives, or access to passwords or codes can serve as agents of reinforcement. In the game BMX XXX, players who successfully accomplish the missions are rewarded with codes to view real video clips of exotic dancers performing a strip-tease.
    To summarize, video game players, through repeated exposure to attractive, overtly sexualized characters, may begin to develop scripts about gender stereotypes. When sex is used as a reward, players may assume that this type of activity is reinforced and sanctioned by society. Because of this, it is important to examine sexuality in video games.


    Bolded part is how sexism differs from violence. When was the last time you got punished for say male gazing? And while most of the article talks about youth, notice the children and adults part.

    Frederickson and Roberts 1997 "Objectification theory: toward understanding women’s lived experiences and mental health risks" is apparently the starting article talking about objectification of women. It's free but also 36 pages so.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

    Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7
    Activity Recorded M.Y. 2302.22467
    TERMINATION OF SPECIMEN ADVISED

  4. #154
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clarkson gone!

    On a side note, Clarkson is actually working on a car show, but AFAIK no details yet.
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

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  5. #155
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clarkson gone!

    Hurrah

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Moody View Post
    none of those articles are calling for a ban on games - they are (in a very hamfisted way) saying is that the gaming identity (i.e. the community) has a problem - that problem being harassment.

    These articles date back to the beginning of Gamersgate (these articles actually gave it its name) - basically the whole Quinnsipricary nonsense led to attacks on the Gaming press (under the now proven wrong accusation she slept with reporters to get good reviews) - in a typical response the gaming press circled the wagons and responded with the articles above - basically a knee jerk attack at those they saw turning on them - this of course blew up in their faces and turned into what we know as Gamersgate today.

    Not one article talked about censoring games - a lot bemoaned the "death" of the gamer identity (basically they were nostalgically longing for the 90's when the gaming community was FAR more niche and not as openly hostile to each other) but that isn't a call for censorship
    I must say you are better informed that I thought, however:

    1. Technically Alan Baldwin coined the term the day before.

    2. The quinspiracy was internet drama, Gamergate was started from the fallout of it. During the drama Nathan grayson revealed was in a relationship with zoe quinn before or during the writing of this article among others and hadnt revealed it.

    This was in breach of journalistic ethics (as this guy explains) this wasn't an egreigeously biased article but the lack of response from his employers, be it discipline or even acknowledgement, gained attention and with digging several other breaches were found like:
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Ben kuchera was paying ms quinn's patreon before writing this about her, Patrica Hernandez was found inviting zoe quinn to a meeting a year before writing this and this. Soon there were cases found that didnt include zoe quinn; patricia hernandez giving favourable coverage to her roomate Anna Anthropy, Lauren WainWright penning a number of articles on her own employer square-enix without confiding the information on the page.
    Questions were asked and in response the gaming press indeed "circled the wagons and responded with the articles above" which touched off a consumer revolt long in the making, the highlight being these articles, linking a large swath of gaming journalists together in one mailing list.

    3. The articles expressed a false implication; that the harrassment were inherent to the gamers themselves. Harrassment is an internet wide problem, one that plagues everywhere from MLP fandoms to Stormfront. Without consequences the GIFT reigns and to imply it as a problem with gamer culture specifically is highly disingenuous and, as you probably already noticed, a dodge to avoid a real issue.

    Why do I believe that this is censorship?
    Well, you dont need government action to censor if you control the media.

    During the quinnspiracy it was shown through that mailing list that miss quinn had enough influence that journalists were being kept from reporting on it negatively, I believe that is censorship in itself.

    In the sarkeesian issue, all those articles pointed to the harassers while none even acknowledged the existance of legitimate critics of sarkeesian. I feel it is enough to convince me that these two people, two women who cry about the toxicity of masculinity, have (or had) influence over gaming journalism and I do believe they were using it to push an effort to keep thier critics out of the limelight.

    Then we have all these journalists trying to redefine the term gamer as another variant of undesirable; telling the creators they dont need to be the audience, insisting they are being left behind, declaring gamers are over.

    Combined it's enough to make me think there was and still is an attempt to push the idea that liking juvinile materiel makes you sexist and the media was being used to silence anyone who dissented.

    But that's my opinion and as ms sarkeesian has shown, an opinion does not have to be based in reality.



    Sorry, Ironside, but I'm trying to limit myself to one long post a day and this seemed more urgent. I'll answer you on saturday.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 05-08-2015 at 02:01.
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