Planecrash in France, developing story

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Gets even worse, Lufthansa knew that he had serious psychological problems, and should have shared that information by law.

Perhaps that decision boils down to a simple scarcity issue.

[Husar]

Perhaps that decision boils down to a simple scarcity issue.

Luckily we have already developed drones...

[Fragony]

Perhaps that decision boils down to a simple scarcity issue.

oh ouch, that's going to hurt. If that was a consideration Lufthansa is in trouble.

[Husar]

Heh, I saw an article in German that said some pilot came out and said only the Lufthansa still pays a relatively decent wage, all pilots are under stress due to cost cutting measures with the heavy competition and that he doesn't know of one colleague who hasn't fallen asleep for a few minutes in the cockpit at least once. He also said the wages are so bad that some pilots live in the cheaper countryside and have to drive several hours to get to their plane, which just adds to their being tired. The point was apparently that the situation with pilots is far worse than one would think and it's mainly due to capitalism.

Apparently the problem isn't all new though:
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jan...er17-2010jan17

The Pinnacle pilot says he has seen his co-workers take short naps or have trouble staying awake while in the cockpit. A 2008 study by NASA found that about 80% of regional pilots said they had nodded off during a flight.

[Kadagar_AV]

Isn't that why we have 2 pilots though?

I mean... I honestly don't care if one nods off, as long as the other one is awake...

But yeah, price dumping has really left aviation in shambles... We should seriously start to take another look on it, like we do with farming where people are willing to pay more for a more humane environment...

[Beskar]

Being honest though, taking turns power-napping sounds like a good solution.

[Husar]

Well, I assume that:

a) part of the point is that it didn't turn out well when one pilot left the cockpit to pee (can also be replaced with nap I guess)

b) it doesn't help a lot if both pilots pretty much arrive tired for their shift

c) power naps do not replace actual sleep and some pilots also thought of that, it's mentioned in the article

d) part of the problem are regional flights were the pilots probably can't power nap in the short time they are in the air and probably have other things to do between flight, like checking the airplane, filling out forms, coordinating with staff and so on, the article says international flights over longer distances are less problematic and less stressful, especially since the number of takeoffs and landings is lower there, which put the pilots through a lot of stress since they are the most dangerous parts even for experienced pilots.

How about we ban flights under a certain distance and start to research really fast trains for those distances instead? Imagine the resources one could save by not propelling people 10km into the air only to come down again 20 mins later. The pilots who lose their jobs will apparently earn more as train drivers as well, possibly because of the lower fuel prices.

[Fragony]

High speep trains are cool, it only takes a few hours to get just about everywhere. No need to check in, almost never any delays. I never fly because I am scared of hights, my personal philosophy is that if something is higher than a tree I really don't ought to be there.

[Kadagar_AV]

Underneath of here is a pilots take on this...

Funny, a part of it very much mimic MY thoughts on the subject...

See, I AM a ski instructor. I haven't worked as it for years now, except teaching the odd friend and family... But part of me will always be a ski instructor, no matter what career I have.

I take people up mountains, and bring them down safely. That is my creed, that is my honour.

AND THIS IS WHAT I CAN'T GET ABOUT THIS PILOT!!!

If you want to take your own life, by all means... Who am I to judge all in all...

If you want to do it in an airplane... Again, by all means, just rent a plane and go fly yourself...

But how the **** can someone bring down an airplane with 150+ people on it, because HE wants to die?

I have tried to wrap my head around this, but I still don't get it. Terrorists blowing themselves up I can GET, not agree with of course, but GET on some level... But this just... I have no words.

I can only view it from my own perspective... It would be like ME wanting to kill myself... And how I do it is by taking a skiing group who trust my ability to an extreme risk avalanche area...

I just... I have no words. The thought is so far beyond me that I don't even know how to handle the thought... How can someone hate himself so much that he kills not just himself, but his HONOUR, his creed? This is a hatred or bitterness that goes to levels I may not be built to understand.

Not in my wildest nightmares would I even have been able to conceive the idea of me willingly risking other people's lives, people who trust me, people who I have made into a large part of my life to serve...

I. just. don't. get. it.


https://disciplesofflight.com/letter...wings-tragedy/

[Rhyfelwyr]

@Kad: Didn't the pilot's girlfriend say he made made comments about wanting his name to be remembered and him generally being a bit of a narcissist? Maybe he just wanted his 15 minutes.

[Greyblades]

Well the backroom is talking about his dumb ass instead of the 47 treasonous senators, so I'd say he succeeded.

[Husar]

It's not necessarily just a hatred of oneself, it might be combined with a hatred for the entire world/society at large etc.
Or he went into such an internal rage that he simply "forgot" about all the other passengers for a while. Although he must have thought about the pilot at least in order to intentionally lock him out.

[Fragony]

@Kad: Didn't the pilot's girlfriend say he made made comments about wanting his name to be remembered and him generally being a bit of a narcissist? Maybe he just wanted his 15 minutes.

Was over for a while as I understand, might, might not. I am not trying to upset you Hax before you think I am being mean, but there is a particular thing I consider.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Isn't that why we have 2 pilots though?

I mean... I honestly don't care if one nods off, as long as the other one is awake...

But yeah, price dumping has really left aviation in shambles... We should seriously start to take another look on it, like we do with farming where people are willing to pay more for a more humane environment...

US Policy on this is for one of the flight attendants to replace the pilot who is heading off for a piss so that there is never a one-person-in-the-cockpit solo situation.

[HopAlongBunny]

It is possible that he just didn't think of anyone else.
Thoughts of self-destruction => intensely internal focus => today is a good day to die => oh, hey! I'm all alone in here!!! => success

[Fragony]

It is possible that he just didn't think of anyone else.
Thoughts of self-destruction => intensely internal focus => today is a good day to die => oh, hey! I'm all alone in here!!! => success

pretty likely probably

[Husar]

It is possible that he just didn't think of anyone else.
Thoughts of self-destruction => intensely internal focus => today is a good day to die => oh, hey! I'm all alone in here!!! => success

As I already said, he must have locked the pilot out intentionally, surely he kind of thought about at least one other person at the time.

pretty likely probably

I'm not so sure.

[Papewaio]

US Policy on this is for one of the flight attendants to replace the pilot who is heading off for a piss so that there is never a one-person-in-the-cockpit solo situation.

I'm sure a few extra long toilet breaks were arranged for in the past...

[Fragony]

I'm not so sure.

Me neither, but they found nothing in his house that suggests that it wasn't an impulsive act. I imagine that if he really wanted to make a point out of doing this he wanted to ensure everyone knows that he did it on purpose. As I understand the relation with the girl who claimed that he wanted his name to be known to everybody was already over way before this happened. That in itselve isn't such a weird thing to say, a gifted musician or painter could say the same.

Take that Breivik, also a mass-murderer with narcistic tendencies, he wrote a manifest of hundrerds of pages.

[Husar]

Me neither, but they found nothing in his house that suggests that it wasn't an impulsive act. I imagine that if he really wanted to make a point out of doing this he wanted to ensure everyone knows that he did it on purpose. As I understand the relation with the girl who claimed that he wanted his name to be known to everybody was already over way before this happened. That in itselve isn't such a weird thing to say, a gifted musician or painter could say the same.

Take that Breivik, also a mass-murderer with narcistic tendencies, he wrote a manifest of hundrerds of pages.

I meant that if he just thought of himself and forgot everything around him, the other pilot would have come into the cockpit.
But when the cockpit door alarm started he must have consciously locked "the other people" out of the cockpit, which usually entails thinking about them in some way or another. One might even say he actively denied them the right to live in that moment/decided to kill them too.

[Fragony]

I meant that if he just thought of himself and forgot everything around him, the other pilot would have come into the cockpit.
But when the cockpit door alarm started he must have consciously locked "the other people" out of the cockpit, which usually entails thinking about them in some way or another. One might even say he actively denied them the right to live in that moment/decided to kill them too.

Probably. I don't think things like this will ever be foolproof. I doubt he never considered the people on board but just wanted to drag them down with him. But there is still way too much unknown to us, there will probably be formed a commision that will look very precise at everything. Just a wild thought, the plane had six hours delay because of maintenance, the front-hatch could have opened dragging the plane down, a problem guys who make airbus-planes warned abouf, he speeded up before the crash, that could also mean that he did that to gain hight. That he breathed steadily also doesn't have to mean anything, he could have come to peace with his life being over. Maybe he didn't do this on purpose, you never know. I think he did but I can't know. Easy on any conclusions by now is probably best, but it looks bad in any case. There is also the convert thingie, hate to say it but that's also a consideration, should be.

[Husar]

Probably. I don't think things like this will ever be foolproof. I doubt he never considered the people on board but just wanted to drag them down with him. But there is still way too much unknown to us, there will probably be formed a commision that will look very precise at everything. Just a wild thought, the plane had six hours delay because of maintenance, the front-hatch could have opened dragging the plane down, a problem guys who make airbus-planes warned abouf, he speeded up before the crash, that could also mean that he did that to gain hight. That he breathed steadily also doesn't have to mean anything, he could have come to peace with his life being over. Maybe he didn't do this on purpose, you never know. I think he did but I can't know. Easy on any conclusions by now is probably best, but it looks bad in any case. There is also the convert thingie, hate to say it but that's also a consideration, should be.

Again, he had to turn a switch into a position that one can safely assume is rarely used for this switch. If he did not turn the switch into that position on purpose, the other pilot could have entered the cockpit with the safety code. Given that the other pilot very obviously tried to get into the cockpit for quite a while, it would be safe to assume that the co-pilot locked him out on purpose, he certainly didn't open the door to let the other pilot in in order to recover the airplane together.

There are only two scenarios where he didn't lock someone out consciously:
a) the switch became conscious and moved itself (it seems to be safeguarded against accidental movement by having to be pulled out first)
b) the other pilot was just banging on the door for fun and noone noticed that there is no door opening alarm while they were listening to the audio recordings, the pilot basically faked wanting back into the cockpit

You can probably tell me how likely these scenarios are.
I'm not sure how to judge what he did but that this was all an unfortunate accident seems very unlikely. You'd think if he was dealing with a technical problem, he'd open the door for the pilot to get back in. If he used a technical problem to commit suicide on purpose and take everyone with him it doesn't really change a lot. Even if the problem was hard to recover from, why did he not let the pilot in to help him do that?

[Fragony]

No idea, it is VERY likely that it wasn't an accident, but I want to know more before I besmear his name. It can still just be an electronic fairrue, unlikely but possible. I am just not making any conclusions yet. It looks absolutily bad, depression, possible psychosis, convert to islam, but it hasn't HAVE to be any of that. I find my take on why he speeded up at least pleasible if there was a problem with the hatch, it could make sense in the scenario I gave, which I don't believe myselve by the way.