Got EU Milk?

[Sarmatian]

Reminds me of that 'Walking the Nile' series that was on recently. The guy met a tribe of pastoralists in Sudan who lived mainly off of milk, and these guys were massive, really freakishly tall. I think they might have been overdoing it though because their teeth were shooting out of their mouth at wild angles. Its certainly true that milk makes your bones/teeth grow.

It's the calcium, and it's not like you can't get it somewhere else.

Anyway, thinking about history, civilizations that used a lot of milk in their diet, like Mongols, Tatars, Turks... tended to be slightly shorter IIRC.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Really? Well this is going to make you eat your own face:

http://foodbabe.com/

I hate you for making me aware of this.

[Gilrandir]

When my parents and their extended families came to the United States from the Soviet Union in '89-90, they were quite shocked to see the fruits and vegetables for sale in groceries and supermarkets. At first, they didn't even attempt to purchase them, and instead asked around for the locations of the "real" produce. They had mistaken the actual produce for display models.

Why? Because, unlike in the Soviet Union (apparently), the produce in America (New York) was not coated with dung and dirt.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I can share a different story:
About 20 years ago I was interpreting for Americans who came to Ukraine to some Christian summer camp. There was a guy among them later nicknamed Shithole Tod (once visiting... er ...um ... outdoor sanitary facilities, which are still in abundance in what I call "hard core" Ukrainian villages, he dropped his camera (what can he have been doing with it in there, I wonder) down the said hole and had to climb down to get it) who was very much surprised when he saw that fruit and especially berries grew on trees and bushes. So most of his spare time he spent in the gooseberry patch doing the unthinkable - eating berries off the bush.

I speak not of the appearence, but of the taste of the products in the USA, that is of the abscence of it.

On a second thought, it is both the appearance and the taste that matter.
When I was in America I saw only two kinds (I can't call them sorts) of apples - big green ones and big red ones. And locals were surprised when I asked what sort they were. They didn't realize that they can be of different colors (from palest green, almost white - those that ripen the soonest, at the end of July - through yellow-red and red ones - to green which ripen the latest and stay juicy through the whole winter), shapes and sorts - I can name a dozen off the top of my head. For Americans it is just "apples" which can't be different.
The same with mushrooms - they knew only champignons and never heard of wild mushrooms which are extremely diverse in shape, taste and ways of cooking.
The same about strawberries, pears, tomatoes, potatoes ...
The only honey I saw there was the yellow viscous scentless liquid always of the same thickness. People don't realize that it can be gathered from different flowers thus can differ in color (from almost transluscent acacia honey to dark-beer colored buckwheat honey), scent and taste. Moreover, natural honey CAN'T STAY LIQUID ALL THE YEAR ROUND (except when some rare flowers donated their pollen into it). It usually gets crystallized as late as October and some kinds do it sooner (the soonest to crystallize is sunflower honey).
Well, I guess I shoudn't have posted hungry.

[Montmorency]

I have my doubts that urban Ukrainian children and young adults have some kind of special mystical botanical knowledge that they absorb through communing with Nature for all their lives.

Everyone knows that's the Finns.

[Papewaio]

I used to drink about 1.5L of milk a day in Perth.

Rather easy when you have wheat bix for breakfast a couple of coffees (6-9) and one or two 600mL flavoured milk as well.

Back in New Zealand my parents had goats that they milked. We then heated it up on the stove to kill the bacteria, used it in breakfast (wheat bix, oat porridge), coffee and made our own yoghurt too.

[Gilrandir]

I have my doubts that urban Ukrainian children and young adults have some kind of special mystical botanical knowledge that they absorb through communing with Nature for all their lives.

Ukrainians are historically an argicultural civilization, land tillers, and these roots surface now, sometimes in most unlikely situations.
http://zak-kor.net/ukraina-ta-svt/59...to-dalshe.html
The linked article informs of Ukrainian soldiers from Transcarpathia in the ATO zone, who grow onions between the trenches, extract birchtree sap and plan to get some hogs.
Very many Ukrainian families have parents and/or relatives in villages (like my wife's parents, my aunt's family and my late grandparents). Others have a summer house (aka dacha). It is a tradition that on weekends or on holidays families go out of town - to enjoy the back-breaking work in the vegetable garden and orchard. Some kids spend as much as 3 summer months in the country.
On balance I would claim that average Ukrainians are well aware of at least most common plants grown in the sticks. My daughter, for instance, at the age of five knew by sight half a dozen different horticultural plants as soon as they sprouted.
Those adults who are lucky to avoid regular weekly "saltmines" are market frequenters where they can choose from a variety of produce grown in the abovementioned sticks - both for immediate consumption and for canning.

[Montmorency]

John Steinbeck's America was relatively close to the Ukraine you describe. Even the urban poor, mainly being immigrants from rural Europe, maintained some of their horticultural heritage for a time.

Contemporary Ukraine is markedly-less urban than even the post-war US. After WW2, American urbanization became all about 'upgrading' from the sticks. But even for most of the Industrial Era, many Americans were fascinated (or infatuated) with the idea of cities as microcosms of Civilization set apart from uncultivated surroundings.

There have of course been many benefits associated with this culture; on the other hand, we got suburbs, hippies and assorted other 'Greenies' - and the naive urban/suburban youth you describe.

In the coming decades, don't be surprised if you find your urban youth moving more towards an American sort of mindset and experience, and keep in mind that if this shift doesn't occur, it probably will correlate with a lack of investment and development in the country and region. You really do need to build urban and transport infrastructure as your population shrinks.

[Vuk]

Milk is my life-blood. I would die without a ready supply.

[Gilrandir]

In the coming decades, don't be surprised if you find your urban youth moving more towards an American sort of mindset and experience, and keep in mind that if this shift doesn't occur, it probably will correlate with a lack of investment and development in the country and region. You really do need to build urban and transport infrastructure as your population shrinks.

I'm witnessing the movement that you refer to, yet finacial problems now and in the nearest future are unlikely to motivate people (even the young ones) to totally abandon their connection with agricultural practices. Anyway, the latter may also be viewed as a kind of invigorating exercise inner city people don't get in their routine life.

[Papewaio]

Well half the world's population is now in cities and that percentage is growing.

The more developed a country is the higher it's city percentages are. Modern economics relies on specialisation so as farms become more business then just self sufficient the surplus farm labourers who are replaced by tractors, motorcycles, pumps, solenoid valves, computers etc have to move to the city.

Cities themselves are very efficient in moving supplies around so the net effect is food surpluses with less farmers required. However that means less people understand how to grow and recognise food. The rise of foodies has offset some of this trend at least at the consumption side of the food pipeline... they can at least recognise food in artesian jars now...

[a completely inoffensive name]

I will be necroing this thread in six months to ask if your milk prices have gone higher.

[Husar]

I will be necroing this thread in six months to ask if your milk prices have gone higher.

Wait a few years until the monopoly/cartel has been firmly established by the best capitalists, the only milk they offer anymore has 20% sugar and 10% salt to taste better and has never seen the inside of a cow.

[Gilrandir]

Cities themselves are very efficient in moving supplies around so the net effect is food surpluses with less farmers required. However that means less people understand how to grow and recognise food. The rise of foodies has offset some of this trend at least at the consumption side of the food pipeline... they can at least recognise food in artesian jars now...

In my view, it is not about increasing efficiency in agriculture and logistics, but about total unification of food production which results in narrowing gamut of products on sale and tastes to offer (and consequently to experience).

[Papewaio]

In my view, it is not about increasing efficiency in agriculture and logistics, but about total unification of food production which results in narrowing gamut of products on sale and tastes to offer (and consequently to experience).

It isn't a difference it is action and consequence. Efficiency in food production has a default in creating monocultures in foodstuffs. Doesn't have to be so, but it is a problem when any food producers get a monopoly and the marketing to cement it ie Angus beef in Australia.

Hopefully with education and bravery people will widen not only how they cook the end produce but increase the variety of foods they choose.

[Gilrandir]

Efficiency in food production has a default in creating monocultures in foodstuffs.

I don't see the connection. I don't understand why efficiently produced foodstuffs must be of only one kind. If I were an agricultural producer, I would be interested in expanding the gamut of produce (and consequently increasing profit and conquering new markets and strata of consumers). Having introduced one and having gotten it successfully sold a producer (using the acquired reputation) could promote related products of different kind.
To my mind, the problem lies in standardization imposed (don't know by who) upon the products. For example, all the apples must be of a certain (=equal) size, shape, color... I heard some years ago there was a to-do in some European country about bananas that were not of required curve radius or something, so they were withdrawn from supermarkets.

[Papewaio]

Specialisation and location.

A good place for being a dairy farm isn't often adjacent to a great place for a wheat field.

Add in farmer training and time.

Expensive specialist machinery that gets more cost effective the more it is used with the herd or field and there is a natural tendency for herds and crops to get larger.

Add in marketing so the consumers keep going back to the same products which drives demand for variety down not up.

[Gilrandir]

A good place for being a dairy farm isn't often adjacent to a great place for a wheat field.

And?
You have a farm and produce milk. But you don't sell only milk. There are at least dozen dairy products which can be produced from milk. I mean at least in Ukraine there is a dozen. Extend the produce variety.
The same with friut and vegetables. If you have a garden, why grow only one sort of apples?
The problem might be that chain supermarkets will refuse to take anything except one sort (product).

[Fragony]

Just had a chat with the manager of the local supermarket, there is an absolute goldmine here. Chinese people do not trust Chinese milkpowder because some kids died because of poluted product. They can only buy one can, that explains why they are there every day. They even fight eachother for milk-powder. Getting into this, feel free to use the info there is more than enough for all of us to make a profit. Each day there are dozends buying that stuff. If there are dozends they will also buy dozends. With regulations lifted milk is white gold, think fast.

[Sigurd]

And?
You have a farm and produce milk. But you don't sell only milk. There are at least dozen dairy products which can be produced from milk. I mean at least in Ukraine there is a dozen. Extend the produce variety.
The same with friut and vegetables. If you have a garden, why grow only one sort of apples?
The problem might be that chain supermarkets will refuse to take anything except one sort (product).

Usually the milk farmer sell the milk to a dairy company who produces butter, cheese pasteurized milk etc. From my own experience living on a dairy farm while studying for my BIT. The farmer was into meat production as well as not all bovine offspring can be hooked up to a milking station He had several large fields where he grew the winter food and other fields where they grassed. The milk truck came every day to empty the tanks.

Milk Farm = a variety of tasks. Looking after the cows and oxen, delivering calves, growing grass and harvesting, making silage (baling grass), spraying the fields with slurry from the manure cellar (nothing like the smell of ammonia in the morning). Luckily for me he kept a fully equipped garage were I could have a field day with my 240 Turbo. Also, he had a contract with a local brewery who delivered beer grut (sic). Apparently the cows loved the stuff.

[Gilrandir]

Usually the milk farmer sell the milk to a dairy company who produces butter, cheese pasteurized milk etc.

In Ukraine, some farmers produce both milk (well, I mean the cows, in fact ) AND dairy produce. Others choose to sell the milk to large dairy companies.

Milk Farm = a variety of tasks. Looking after the cows and oxen, delivering calves, growing grass and harvesting, making silage (baling grass), spraying the fields with slurry from the manure cellar (nothing like the smell of ammonia in the morning). Luckily for me he kept a fully equipped garage were I could have a field day with my 240 Turbo. Also, he had a contract with a local brewery who delivered beer grut (sic). Apparently the cows loved the stuff.

I am aware of that. Yet all these tasks have the ultimate purpose - selling milk. If a farm has some specialization, then the gamut of tasks is narrow. If it is a multi-purpose farm (for example, pig-breeding, poultry-breeding and vegetable production) the variety of tasks grows.
Yet your story didn't explain why farmers (or processing companies) should limit their activities to producing one kind of goods.

[Husar]

Yet your story didn't explain why farmers (or processing companies) should limit their activities to producing one kind of goods.

That is usually done because it allows the company to be more efficient, therefore offer lower prices for the same quality and naturally outperform the non-specialized companies on the market. I'm sure you can find counter-examples but there is plenty of research showing that specialization generally wins out, which might explain why this is also taught in business studies at universities. Combined with trade you can still have everything if there is enough demand for all of it.

[Gilrandir]

That is usually done because it allows the company to be more efficient, therefore offer lower prices for the same quality and naturally outperform the non-specialized companies on the market.

Probably, it is neccessary to define "non-specialized" and "specialized". If you produce, say, one kind (brand) of cheese only, you are specialized. If you produce several kinds/brands, does it make you non-specialized? If it doesn't, what if you produce several kinds of cheese plus a yoghurt? If "specialized" has a broader sense of "producing only related products" (milk, kefir, yoghurt, cream, butter), then I don't see why one can't increase the variety of the said products.

[Husar]

Probably, it is neccessary to define "non-specialized" and "specialized". If you produce, say, one kind (brand) of cheese only, you are specialized. If you produce several kinds/brands, does it make you non-specialized? If it doesn't, what if you produce several kinds of cheese plus a yoghurt? If "specialized" has a broader sense of "producing only related products" (milk, kefir, yoghurt, cream, butter), then I don't see why one can't increase the variety of the said products.

Why does it have to be clearly defined? The market defines what a good specialization is. Apparently producing cows, milk cheese and all kinds of other dairy products is not such a great specialization so farmers usually concentrate on the cows and milk while a dairy company deals with the dairy products. In some cases the farmers also own a dairy company collectively because that way the dairy company can operate more efficiently because the milk of all farmers is pooled and the employees at the dairy plant can specialize on creating dairy products from all the milk. If a single farmer does it, he has to take care of the cows, the milk production and the dairy production and the amount of milk he produces may not allow for a continuous and efficient dairy produce production, especially if he has to get an extra machine to produce a certain kind of cheese that costs a whole lot and the amount of milk only allows him to produce only 5 pieces of cheese a year. The dairy company may get the milk of 300 farmers, be able to produce 1500 pieces of cheese and therefore spread the costs of the machine among those 300 pieces of cheese, enabling them to offer the cheese much cheaper.If they also do market research it's much easier for them to align their production to the market demand than it is for all 300 farmers who all have to do their own market research. In this case the farmers only need to bother with selling their milk to the dairy company and can otherwise focus on torturing their cows to produce more and cheaper milk.

[Gilrandir]

Why does it have to be clearly defined? The market defines what a good specialization is. Apparently producing cows, milk cheese and all kinds of other dairy products is not such a great specialization so farmers usually concentrate on the cows and milk while a dairy company deals with the dairy products. In some cases the farmers also own a dairy company collectively because that way the dairy company can operate more efficiently because the milk of all farmers is pooled and the employees at the dairy plant can specialize on creating dairy products from all the milk. If a single farmer does it, he has to take care of the cows, the milk production and the dairy production and the amount of milk he produces may not allow for a continuous and efficient dairy produce production, especially if he has to get an extra machine to produce a certain kind of cheese that costs a whole lot and the amount of milk only allows him to produce only 5 pieces of cheese a year. The dairy company may get the milk of 300 farmers, be able to produce 1500 pieces of cheese and therefore spread the costs of the machine among those 300 pieces of cheese, enabling them to offer the cheese much cheaper.If they also do market research it's much easier for them to align their production to the market demand than it is for all 300 farmers who all have to do their own market research. In this case the farmers only need to bother with selling their milk to the dairy company and can otherwise focus on torturing their cows to produce more and cheaper milk.

Still I don't see how this prevents dairy producers from variegating their line of products. Still less farmers from growing different sorts of apples or bee-keepers from producing different kinds of honey.

[Husar]

Still I don't see how this prevents dairy producers from variegating their line of products. Still less farmers from growing different sorts of apples or bee-keepers from producing different kinds of honey.

Who said that there is only one kind of each product on the market and where is that?
Do you mean my comment about a monopoly? That contained a lot of hyperbole if that wasn't obvious.

[Gilrandir]

Who said that there is only one kind of each product on the market and where is that?

I said it about American foostuffs exemplifying my statement by only two kinds of apples that there are on sale in the supermarkets of the USA. Read the above messages in the thread.

[Husar]

I said it about American foostuffs exemplifying my statement by only two kinds of apples that there are on sale in the supermarkets of the USA. Read the above messages in the thread.

That may be because some supermarkets do not have the shelf space to offer a larger variety, but a reliable source (person who lives in the USA) just told me that there are also specialty shops such as Whole Foods and Trader Joe's where they have a larger variety.

Here is a website where they present a variety of apples: https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/blo...are-here-again
I count 11 types of apples that are presented to an American audience there. The blogger even claims that there is more variety on offer than she can try each year.

[Graphic]

For extensive apple variety you can also visit the Big Apple

https://youtu.be/Pj2WKny3eZE?t=28s

[Gilrandir]

That may be because some supermarkets do not have the shelf space to offer a larger variety

ALL people who I spoke to didn't realize there was a variety of apples (as well as strawberries, potatoes, honey...). Well, perhaps, my focus group was not representative.

Here is a website where they present a variety of apples: https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/blo...are-here-again
I count 11 types of apples that are presented to an American audience there. The blogger even claims that there is more variety on offer than she can try each year.

See, this is the problem - one gotta do something to get something different. If one goes to regular supermarkets (and he is too lazy to change his route) he will not get any variety.

[Husar]

ALL people who I spoke to didn't realize there was a variety of apples (as well as strawberries, potatoes, honey...). Well, perhaps, my focus group was not representative.

See, this is the problem - one gotta do something to get something different. If one goes to regular supermarkets (and he is too lazy to change his route) he will not get any variety.

I think you're trying to shift the problem now.
You were seemingly making the argument that the USA do not offer the same variety of apples and some other products as Ukraine does, where farmers seem to produce everything they can. I showed you that there is indeed variety in the USA as well and now you complain that it's not shoved into peoples' faces.

It could simply be that the majority of people prefer one or two types of apples and therefore it is not preferable for most supermarkets to offer them all. But there are obviously specialized stores in most areas where one can get a much larger variety if one wants it. I'm aware that this can be a problem if certain things disappear entirely or one has to drive a little while to get to a store with certain items on offer, but that's how the market and capitalism work. If every supermarket had all types of apples on offer and they'd throw away several thousand tons of apples a year and would need to subsidize farmers (even more) to allow them to offer all these apples noone buys, people would complain as well. I'm sure it works out in Ukraine somehow, but Ukraine is not the USA, maybe one has to sacrifice on some apple variety to get the GDP per capita of the USA.