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Thread: "Free" Trade

  1. #1

    Default "Free" Trade

    It seems that arguments in favor of protectionism have been made from all across the political spectrum, from right-wing, "free-market" types, to libertarians, to pro-labor old-school leftists, with examples from each on this very forum.

    All of these arguments are individually surprising, in that they invariably force those who make them into inconsistency with their own fundamental precepts.

    I think I finally understand why this particular issue provokes so much schizodoxy, and this understanding can be summarized with reference to the parable of the blind men and the elephant.

    This post, then, will not be concerned with individually drawing out the inconsistencies associated with protectionist rhetorics, but in the deeper question of how they have come about in the first place, across such a broad ideological spectrum.

    I'll keep it really simple:


    PART 1: WHAT HAS COME BEFORE

    Contemporary "free trade" has been a specific policy instrument toward two ends:
    a. State capitalism
    b. Geopolitical stabilization

    "State capitalism", as Clyde Wilson defines it: "a regime of highly concentrated private ownership, subsidized and protected by government."

    State capitalism is best epitomized by the United States Republican Party, in that it, for almost its entire existence, has been focused on diverting the energies of the federal/national government from specific policy issues of concern to the general population, to supporting a "court" system that links professional political agents with professional corporate-economic agents in such a way as to allow both to abet one another's profit at the expense of the larger national state and its inhabitants. The other major US party, the Democrats, have assimilated to this mode of governance in order to survive as a political body.

    In this aspect of "globalized" free trade, China and the USA have been both the most eager parties to initiate the necessary policies, as their leadership over time has stood to gain the most from these policies. Indeed, the Chinese population at-large, as well as the aggregate populations of similar developing countries such as India and Mexico, have gained considerably from foreign investment and the collateral rise in incomes and construction of infrastructure. The benefits to the developed partners in the free-trade relationship were mostly concentrated in the short-term. They were there, but the returns have rapidly diminished in the medium-term.

    "Geopolitical stabilization" is used in the sense that much of international relations since WW2, especially between neighboring countries and global powers, has been a means of creating economic, political, and social interconnections such that the burdens of modern international relations are reduced, particularly in regard to national defense. For example, it is not at all innovative to comment that the project of Europeanization on the Old Continent has had as its guiding principle the pacification of the Germanic world. However, even the relationships of the USA, Japan, and China to each other could be viewed from this perspective.

    Thus, one way to narrate post-war free-trade policy would be as indirect subsidies exchanged between sovereign states. However, from the state-capitalistic ideology, this is ultimately only a secondary consideration to the quasi-feudal dividends, what many might call institutionalized corruption of the highest order. Globalization of general human activity since the beginning of the Industrial Era is the crucial factor here, driving the transition of state capitalism from an inward-looking, and thus protectionistic enterprise to one that broadly supports the policy of free trade. The dilemma is just that, insofar as corporations have become "multi-national", they are simply "non-national", and thus have come to embody the Medieval stereotype of the cosmopolitan-yet-parochial itinerant Jew. It is no surprise that large banks especially are subject to criticism here. Economic actors formerly subordinated to one state and embedded within a relatively-homogeneous population in which they had incentive to invest through networks of patronage are now well into the process of becoming discrete extra-state and extra-national political units. Multinational corporations are in this way entities specialized in extracting and juggling state resources for the benefit of a professional and self-perpetuating class of non-national individuals...

    Protectionism is essentially coming back into vogue, especially as a populist issue, because the balance between state and corporate benefit has begun to shift too far in the latter's favor, resulting in corporate actors that are on paper - and in fact - more powerful than the majority of de jure state actors. Associated with this shift is mounting inequality between the professional non-national corporatists (and their direct beneficiaries) and the vast majority of national subjects. If in the decades following WW2 the world reached a level of (in)equality not seen since the transition of societies from hunting-gathering to agriculturalism, then in the decades since (c.f. the Conservative Ascendancy of the 1980s) inequality has come closer to early-modern levels that spurred widespread popular unrest across the (contemporary) developed world.



    PART 2: WHAT MAY COME (or, Free Trade is Indispensable)


    Even more succinctly than the first part:

    1. There is simply no way to maintain the world at its current level (or, for that matter, a higher level) of development without breaking down most (and soon enough all) trade barriers between traditional political entities.

    2. Free trade is not intrinsically detrimental in the long-term to national subjects - quite the opposite, in fact.

    It is the second point on which I would like to elaborate, though it is closely-related to the first. Free trade, I argue, is only harmful inasmuch as we allow it to be directed by non-national actors who parasitically thrive off the energies of national actors. My perspective is essentially a statist one, and so should only profoundly offend the most ardent libertarians and anarcho-syndicalists (though the whole edifice of modernism is their foe, so there is no helping them). If state-level actors could collaborate to form truly-effective global bounds on economic activity, and so present a sort of "unified front" towards existing multinational actors, then these would simply dissolve into the basic units of organized economic activity that compose them, with their efficiency provided for and guaranteed purely by the coordinated activity of sovereign states. In other words, state capitalism would be disestablished, and without even the need for pernicious and unwieldy levels of oversight that distress those who prefer small government, and international markets would naturally reorganize in such a way that efficient distribution of of goods and commodities would be maximized according to the principle of comparative advantage.

    The challenge is to frame debates around the world along the lines presented above, overcome national tensions per se, and, of course, overwhelm the tenacious and immanent political influence of non-national corporate actors in the governments of the great powers.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  2. #2
    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Whenever I read words such as "schizodoxy" in the first few lines, I just assume the writer is either a poser or have Aspergers... And then kind of move on to reading more interesting things...

    If you would step away from that high horse of yours, and present your case in international english, and not quite as long winded, I would be all ears though, as it sounds interesting...

    But the way you present it, GHAAA!!

  3. #3
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Very well written Montmorency.

    I've been saying most of it for a while, if perhaps less succinctly.
    The multinational corporations are walking all over nation states because they can accumulate too much power and can play the political actors against each other. Some see this as some kind of "market" where the political actors should compete by lowering corporate taxes more and more, but that would not benefit anyone but the corporations themselves and undermines the point that corporations should benefit the people and not make them more miserable by undermining the funding that is necessary to have a functioning society.

    This has even led to the establishment of parasite nations as I like to call them, which thrive on the idea of undercutting their neighbors and making up for it by keeping all the negatives of globalization out. Think of nations such as Ireland, Luxembourg or Switzerland. Ireland and Luxembourg undercut the taxes of neighboring countries but profit from the larger markets that their neghbors willingly provide to all the corporations that pay their taxes in Ireland or Luxembourg. Meanwhile the large countries next to Luxembourg cannot afford to lower their tax rates without completely abandoning large parts of their populations, parts (poor people) that countries like Luxembourg usually try not to let in by inflating all prices or curbing immigration (where possible) so that only the rich can afford to stay there. In other words they manipulate the "free trade" by shoving all the responsibilities off to their neighbors while they pick and attract the profitable parts.

    It should not come as a surprise that only smaller countries can thrive with this model, though that's not to say that all small nations can and do profit in this way. Russia also has relatively low flat taxes and their road network is legendary for how well it is maintained while we probably all agree that it has found just the right balance between wealth and poverty.

    Switzerland on the other hand will gladly profit from the money that torturers and oppressors bunker there. Yes, there are some benefits for Swiss citizens, it may even be a great country for its own citizens but part of that is pretty much literally built on the blood of Africans who work as slaves in diamond mines, on the blood of North Koreans who suffer away in gulags and probably a lot of South Americans who were killed for holding the "wrong" political views. Not to forget that they offered a safe haven for rich people who weren't satisfied with paying lower taxes in Luxembourg and Monaco and would rather pay no taxes to anyone, thereby increasing the tax burden on those of their "fewllow citizens" who could not afford to bunker money outside the country. Which also brings us back to the "non-national" individuals who just exploit the so-called "free trade" for their own means.

    I'm usually in favor of a more open world, I'm just a bit "annoyed" that it seems like the wealthy profit from it a lot more than everyone else does at the moment, which is partially because they can play the individual nations against eachother.

    If anyone wants video evidence, we have John Oliver on Tobacco companies:


    The Young Turks on Argentina's default and predatory hedge funds:


    John Oliver also tackled that one, not sure I should link it since it seems to be from the parts of the show not officially released and cannot be found on youtube anymore.

    And here's an article that I will draw selected, biased quotes from:
    http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles...reedom-fighter

    How does a New Yorker help tip over the second-largest economy in South America a few weeks before his 70th birthday? By being stubborn, self-righteous, clever, and willing to take his decade-long fight against the country to a Las Vegas court, a Ghanaian seaport, weapons warehouses in Maryland, and at least two rocket launches.
    [...]
    “He finds a country in distress, he buys its debt, he demands full payment, and he doesn’t care about the economics, the poverty, the circumstances of the country,” says Mark Cymrot, who represented Peru and is head of BakerHostetler’s international disputes group. “From his point of view, he would say, ‘What’s wrong with it?’ And you’d have to say he’s right. But I wouldn’t want to earn money that way myself.”
    This may be a long and confusing post to basically say that I agree with the OP, but that's what I'm trying to say.
    And I added a bit about countries that take advantage of this.


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  4. #4
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    First of all, “free” market is protected. Protected by layers and layers of laws and protected by armed forces when needed.

    For example, it is not at all innovative to comment that the project of Europeanization on the Old Continent has had as its guiding principle the pacification of the Germanic world.” This could have been achieved with a more ancient way of dealing with aggressive countries.
    What you describe as Europeanization of the Old Continent was the pursuit of what was started after the WW1 and research of political solutions to European Countries. In the aftermath of WW2, Germany could not deny having being defeated, and this time the Allies were much more harsher than the 1st time: Occupation forces, Military parades in Berlin, complete eradication of German administration, taking over of economy, printing money and all Sovereign States powers, no negotiations, and legal procedures against former leaders, parts of the former state organisation declared illegal and criminal. After this, it was possible to try a new way to deal with Germany, and it was not from equal to equal like after the WW1. Germany had no say in it.
    The second aspect was from leaders of some European countries the will to do so. The idea was roughly to avoid a 4th war between France and Germany, 2 of them ending to be World War. And this was a political move to create a common market, starting by European Coal and Steel Community based on the Paris Treaty (1951) to “make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible”.

    as a populist issue” Define populist, please, before I start to answer this, as populism is nowadays use by media and politician celebrating pain and suffering imposed on population against the ones who think there are other ways than to make the rich richer. And probably more efficient as you really see the result of the ones actually implemented.

    There is simply no way to maintain the world at its current level” Do you mean by this the actual level is satisfying enough to ignore the deadly threat it poses to the most vulnerable (and the vast majority) of the world populations (in other words, to kill Brazilian farmers in order to take their lands in order to feed as)? Or to buy the food for the ones who produce it as we can pay more than the locals, making it more profitable for the small capitalists landowners to sell to us than to feed their own?

    long-term” Define long term: 7 years of austerity and Free market rules have produce only 7 years of misery and huge unemployment for Greece. So what is your length of time for “long term”?

    In other words, state capitalism would be disestablished, and without even the need for pernicious and unwieldy levels of oversight that distress those who prefer small government, and international markets would naturally reorganize in such a way that efficient distribution of goods and commodities would be maximized according to the principle of comparative advantage.” So, in term of debate, you narrow it to “let’s agree I am right” principle. Fair enough…
    The problem with it is that reality shows and showed that “free” market is not working without huge amount of military persuasion. So the “natural” reorganisation is not THAT natural.
    And the "market" de facto goes for short term profit. Investments are actually lesser than dividends, and market ignores completely the balance in exploiting resources, naturals or humans, as shown in ecological disasters and in level of living in the vast majority of World Countries.
    Last edited by Brenus; 04-12-2015 at 15:53.
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  5. #5
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    You read that with a completely different slant than I did, Brenus. The way I understood Montmorency, he is saying that the laws that regulate the markets worldwide need to be more unified and that we need to find a way to prevent politicans from catering to corporations because those corporations wield more power than the politicians in some cases and can turn the politicians into "helpers" for their [the corporations'] cause, i.e. what Monty calls state-capitalism. I don't really see the argument for a completely "free" market where corporations can do what they want. Quite contrary to that, the last sentence seems to make it clear that government should be decoupled from corporate interests, assumingly in order to make government oversight over the market effective again and in turn make the market more fair for all who partake. Maybe Monty can clarify whether I understood that correctly?


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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Hmm. I though of it. However, it seems to be a contradiction in terms with free market and regulated market, as the laws are of course all made by States with different agendas and interests.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  7. #7

    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    You have to understand, there can be no market without states and laws. "Free" market is ultimately just a bit of rhetoric, as all markets are inherently regulated markets unless everyone lives in traveling caravans or something. In the paradigm I describe, free trade is the breakdown of international boundaries to the movement of people and goods, except without the disproportional empowerment of corporate non-nationals. The fact that contemporary free trade is engineered for the primary benefit of these just indicates that the non-nationals are the problem, not the idea of free trade itself. As I pointed out, before the Industrial Revolution the predecessors to modern multinational corporations and banks were strongly in favor of protectionism - because back in those days trade and communication networks were at a stage of development where that particular position most benefited those corporations.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Free trade with trans-national corporate actors also encourages:

    race to the bottom as corps shop for favorable labor legislation

    race to the bottom as corps shop for favorable environmental legislation

    race to the bottom as corps shop for favorable oversight environments

    The state switches from vendor of public goods like a clean environment, safe working conditions and re-balancing of benefits, to a "partner of the firm" seeking to maximize profit to their client.
    How does one reign in the Beast?
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  9. #9

    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    How does one reign in the Beast?
    Now, bear with me. I'm just one guy, and I certainly don't have much knowledge or interest in this particularly. I have my own 'research venue'...

    As Strike might say, I'm just dealing in "meaningless abstractions" here.

    I'm providing a guiding perspective to stimulate discussion. The best I can hope for is that someone takes interest who is more focused on issues of transnational governance and economics, and can flesh out the framework in a more practical direction.

    And yes, even there my broad proposal must be acknowledged as coherent only in the context of a transition towards One World Government.

    But what else am I supposed to do here besides engage our ever-diminishing group in productive bull-sessions, throwing crap on the wall to see what sticks?
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  10. #10
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny View Post
    How does one reign in the Beast?
    By internationalizing the policies to reign in corporations IMO.
    There's either the way Europe goes by integrating the EU further, this is why I think we need more political integration at that level.
    And if that is not an option, treaties for example, where the partners agree e.g. on a certain minimum tax for corporations so that you can't have Luxembourg host Steam's EU HQ at a 5%* corporate tax rate while they sell 80%* of their products in France, Britain, Spain and Germany where the tax rate would be higher but isn't applied because they somehow make all their revenue in Luxembourg.
    If the EU introduced a 20%* minimum corporate tax for example then Luxembourg could either leave the EU and wouldn't be suitable as an HQ to sell to the EU or could adjust the tax rate. Now corporations might raise prices or it might hurt smaller local businesses who got some tax exemptions, but that would be easy to resolve by applying the minimum rate only to corporations that operate in more than one country and/or exceed a certain revenue. You only want to reign in the big players since Joe's kiosk will probably not buy a lot of national politicians for his cause or try to outsource his kiosk to China.

    This is just a sort of early idea, but there is no law that says countries have to compete for the favor of corporations, if it goes too far they can unite and set a universal standard, that's the basic idea.

    *all numbers are made up, I don't have the time to check them or all countries' tax codes


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  11. #11
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Actually, just as an update, Husar.
    According to the new European Union Directive 2008/8/EC as of January 1st 2015, all electronic services will always be taxed in the country of customer’s residence.
    For example if you live in Germany the VAT on ANY electronic service provided to you must be with 19% VAT.

    Retailers are obligated to monitor what locations the customers come from and apply a proper VAT rate.
    http://www.kinguin.net/eu-vat-changes-2015
    http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs...d/index_en.htm

    So your Steam example is not valid when it comes to VAT, which was something which didn't get paid at times.

    As for taxation, Starbucks UK buying coffee 5x times retail price from its Switzerland branch so it doesn't make a 'profit' to get taxed is one of many schemes corporations do to get around the rules.
    Last edited by Beskar; 04-13-2015 at 01:04.
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  12. #12
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Actually, just as an update, Husar.

    http://www.kinguin.net/eu-vat-changes-2015
    http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs...d/index_en.htm

    So your Steam example is not valid when it comes to VAT, which was something which didn't get paid at times.
    That's why I was not talking about VAT but corporate tax since I had no idea about these VAT regulations it wouldn't make much sense to make an example with them.
    But I mainly didn't use VAT because corporations usually let the consumers/customers pay the full amount of VAT, it's an indirect corporate tax at best since it only reduces their overall sales. Corporate tax is the one on revenue that companys like Apple somehow make entirely on some island somewhere in an ocean where the 5 inhabitants are perfectly happy with receiving just half a percent of the billions or so that apple somehow makes in their country. I'm not an expert on such tax evasion but it should be common knowledge that it does happen.


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  13. #13
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    I think I need to add multinational companies tax avoidance to my growing list of things worse than terrorism such as police states.

    Mont... Are we in anyway reviewing your homework or providing dialogue for an assessment?
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  14. #14

    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Basically Monty is advocating for one world government that runs elections solely off of public funding to prevent the influence of private/corporate contributions.

    Both are essential because without the former you have no leverage against the non-national actors, without the latter you see what we currently see from the John Oliver clip, e.g. Big Tobacco is actually using international law in their favor against Australia, et al. (if I remember the clip correctly).

    Only the latter of these is actually viable for the near future. More likely, the race to the bottom will continue to ravage the environment of China and the economy of the developed West before moving onto ravaging Africa for the next great wave of cheap labor. This will all end when economics overwhelms the human worker with cheap, versatile robotics and intuitive computer interfaces for common service jobs. Capitalism itself will probably undergo massive changes to prevent total social upheaval and the system as Monty describes will be no more, a victim of its own unrelenting efficiency and disregard for the actors that support it.

    Ahhhhhh, **** did I just become a Marxist?

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  15. #15
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    I think I need to add multinational companies tax avoidance to my growing list of things worse than terrorism such as police states.
    I am pretty sure that the cost cutting measures of certain companies are more likely to kill you than Al Queda or the Taliban.
    Thousands of people die here every year due to infections in hospitals. Thousands of these would not have to die if certain known measures were implemented, but that would cut into the profits of the hospitals. The amount of people terrorism kills in the same timeframe can be counted on one hand or even no hand at all.
    As for the tax avoidance specifically, didn't a bridge in the US collapse a while ago with traffic on it because they just can't get around to spend any taxes on infrastructure repairs? Otherwise it's more a symptom rather than the basic problem though.

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Ahhhhhh, **** did I just become a Marxist?
    Can it be wrong to appreciate some german philosophy?


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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Russia also has relatively low flat taxes and their road network is legendary for how well it is maintained

    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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  17. #17
    Forum Lurker Member Sir Moody's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    As for the tax avoidance specifically, didn't a bridge in the US collapse a while ago with traffic on it because they just can't get around to spend any taxes on infrastructure repairs?
    actually this one is less Tax avoidance and more Politicians pandering to their voter base.

    US Infrastructure repair is funded via a tax on Fuel - this tax used to grow with Inflation but since Mr Clinton's administration no such rises have occurred which means for 3 presidential administrations the Tax has effectively been cut every year - all to keep the price of fuel low...

    John Oliver did a piece on this a few months ago

  18. #18
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Moody View Post
    actually this one is less Tax avoidance and more Politicians pandering to their voter base.

    US Infrastructure repair is funded via a tax on Fuel - this tax used to grow with Inflation but since Mr Clinton's administration no such rises have occurred which means for 3 presidential administrations the Tax has effectively been cut every year - all to keep the price of fuel low...

    John Oliver did a piece on this a few months ago
    Well, it could also be funded by corporate taxes (or income tax) if certain corporations actually paid any, unless the constitution somehow locks the spending to the fuel tax. Of course preferences and flexibility are a factor. And then you have corporations which probably won't like higher fuel prices and lobby to keep them low.

    I also watch all of John Oliver's pieces.


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  19. #19

    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Ahhhhhh, **** did I just become a Marxist?
    Maybe not, but I think you should change your user tag back to "Gutmensch" just to be sure.
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  20. #20
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    I always disliked the term 'Free Trade'. especially with how US Liberals describe it. The most accurate summary for my views would be 'Fair Trade'.
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  21. #21

    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
    Only the latter of these is actually viable for the near future. More likely, the race to the bottom will continue to ravage the environment of China and the economy of the developed West before moving onto ravaging Africa for the next great wave of cheap labor. This will all end when economics overwhelms the human worker with cheap, versatile robotics and intuitive computer interfaces for common service jobs. Capitalism itself will probably undergo massive changes to prevent total social upheaval and the system as Monty describes will be no more, a victim of its own unrelenting efficiency and disregard for the actors that support it.
    Some have actually noted that in places like the US or Europe with relatively-good infrastructure, declining populations actually both propel the transformation into post-capitalist society as well as soften its impact. Increasing services while decreasing population allows for some job stability despite roboticization, or whatever. In the best-case scenario, at least.

    The problem is that almost everyone acts as though tomorrow is just another yesterday. In terms of policy-setting - myself, I just do me: this.
    Vitiate Man.

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  22. #22

    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Some have actually noted that in places like the US or Europe with relatively-good infrastructure, declining populations actually both propel the transformation into post-capitalist society as well as soften its impact. Increasing services while decreasing population allows for some job stability despite roboticization, or whatever. In the best-case scenario, at least.
    In that case, Japan will be a paradise in 50 years.


  23. #23

    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Ok, so far we seem agreed that corporations are doing exactly what they are modeled to do: maximize profit and externalize cost.
    One world government might be a solution (perhaps impossible) but might a lesser goal be achievable?
    Say perhaps a New World Order Corporate Governing Administration; where market access is dependent upon membership and as a trans national body it would collect fees, fines and costs directly.
    The amount of money sloshing through the institution would require it to be staffed by saints, of which the world has no lack!
    Forward to a brave new future!
    Ja-mata TosaInu

  24. #24
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny View Post
    Ok, so far we seem agreed that corporations are doing exactly what they are modeled to do: maximize profit and externalize cost.
    One world government might be a solution (perhaps impossible) but might a lesser goal be achievable?
    Say perhaps a New World Order Corporate Governing Administration; where market access is dependent upon membership and as a trans national body it would collect fees, fines and costs directly.
    The amount of money sloshing through the institution would require it to be staffed by saints, of which the world has no lack!
    Forward to a brave new future!
    I thought I already mentioned that countries could make treaties on minimum taxes and corporations operating from outside the treaty zone would have to pay the tax if they want to operate on markets inside the treaty zone. Of course that may only work if the treaty zone covers a large enough market so that companies wouldn't want to just avoid it.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  25. #25

    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Yes, and I was trying to sum and paraphrase the general gist of the topic so far.
    The idea of countries separately making treaties to establish a "zone of trade" amounts to much the same thing; I propose an overseer in the form of a trans national body to administer the zone.
    In any case, whatever oversight mechanism is in place itself needs some form of oversight to prevent the entire edifice from simply being captured by the very corporations the body oversees; if that had an easy solution we would already see it in national agencies charged with the same task.
    Ja-mata TosaInu

  26. #26

    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    If a single body were to collect all corporate tax, OWG or no, would it make sense to distribute the money to governments on the basis of absolute direct sales by large corporations within each state-unit...

    But then you have to get around conversion rates...

    OWG it is, then!
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  27. #27
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny View Post
    Yes, and I was trying to sum and paraphrase the general gist of the topic so far.
    The idea of countries separately making treaties to establish a "zone of trade" amounts to much the same thing
    You mean they would transfer their profits outside of the zone? You could just tax such transfers at the corporate tax rate so that they either operate fully within your zone and pay the taxes there or they pay the taxes for shuffling the money around. That might stifle ionternational trade a bit, which would in turn be an incentive to join/enlarge these zones until the entire planet has the same tax on corporate profits.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  28. #28

    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    OWG it is, then!
    It isn't a bad idea but it does suffer from certain problems of uniting diverse claims and hostility from multiple sources.
    The history One Big Union might serve as a model for the rise and fall of OWG ;)

    Small snapshot of present practices needing attention:

    https://youtu.be/ZBe0zXV5M2Q
    Ja-mata TosaInu

  29. #29

    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Continuing to beat the dead horse
    Another aspect of not collecting taxes, and at the same time maintaining wages and bargaining environments beneficial to business is the increasing cost to social programs.
    So governments are asked to hand over authority and oversight and subsidize the recipients into the bargain.
    Any studies of the "all in" cost of corporate welfare?

    http://america.aljazeera.com/article...-families.html
    Ja-mata TosaInu

  30. #30

    Default Re: "Free" Trade

    Check this out:

    If you zoom out and consider both states and corporate businesses as large organizations, and then as complex adaptive systems, you come to realize that their primary objectives and activities are self-perpetuation and growth.

    That is the real essence of complex adaptive systems, including the human brain and the very universe.

    What are the consequences of this approach? Well, it forces (pro-)corporatists into a very awkward position. After all, providing goods in an efficient manner is ultimately tangential to both states and corporations alike. If that is so, then:

    How could one argue that corporations are inherently better-suited to the efficient provision and oversight of most economic activity and services than governments are?

    The most salient differences between the two are just:

    1. There are more (large) corporations than governments (as of now).
    2. Corporations have very few even-nominal obligations towards the bulk of the human population.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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