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Thread: POTUS Election thread

  1. #1291
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    This is a little dramatized but the main points are there https://youtu.be/YY-CiPVo_NQ
    Thank you, that's very interesting. IMO Bernie Sanders was the reasonable vote of that sort and Trump the crazy one. I guess when the democrats decided to "play it safe", a lot of people really did go to the Trump camp. I'm getting more and more curious how that will turn out.
    And whether "the system" will allow his ideas to work if he actually implements them. Take the point with the 35% import tax, that only works in some areas I'd guess, in other fields one may end up with a 35% price hike because the wages and working conditions are higher/better when something is produced in the US.
    I could be miscalculating, but as I said, that's the part where I'm curious how/whether it will work out. And before anyone says it's easy to watch an experiment on other people from a distance, remember that I was not quite in a position to decide the outcome and didn't exactly encourage this one either.


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  2. #1292

    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Well, uh, Kage here's an interesting article on why Finland only cooperates with NATO rather than joining it.

    As for the election, looking now I can't help but notice that, despite any loss at all of Pennslyvania-Wisconsin-Michigan being more than just embarrassing for a Democrat candidate, the losses were narrow, around 1%, even 0.3% in Michigan. This might insulate the upper echelons from the urge to reform, if they can rationalize based on the absolute fact of narrow margin there.

    For a D candidate it was nearly a bad showing everywhere, even inspiring more NYC metro citizens to vote R - over a million - than since Reagan's time.
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  3. #1293
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Well, uh, Kage here's an interesting article on why Finland only cooperates with NATO rather than joining it.
    Monty how is that relevant to the issue? Finland´s lack of NATO membership can be explained rather more easily. There is no popular majority support for NATO membership in Finland as the "working man" still believes that it is more harm rather then positive thing. Thats democracy once again. Not that yours truly might agree with that assessment. Personally and i think ive expressed that many times before, Finland and Sweden should be in NATO.

    The thing is, if NATO is to loose its "muscle" by US withdrawing. In such case the whole security situation in Europe would change drastically. Even more so with British Brexit happening already.
    Last edited by Kagemusha; 11-09-2016 at 20:28.
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  4. #1294

    Default Re: POTUS thread

    It was a way of recalling and building your confidence in self-reliance and Scandinavian cooperation - just like in old times!

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  5. #1295
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    My analysis was wrong. In fact, my early on prediction of a narrow Trump popular vote win coupled to a significant electoral college defeat was more or less exactly the reverse of what has occurred.

    There is a segment of the USA that gets misty-eyed when they hear "Proud to Be an American" that has been sneered at too much and they found in Trump a standard bearer for their anger. The working "class" (a much less sweeping term here than in Europe) was frustrated and angered with an anemic GDP growth rate and regulations etc. that marginalized whole industries and/or assisted growth overseas more than at home -- they want to work and get paid, not be retrained and safety-netted and they found in Trump a standard bearer for that anger. They deeply resented a government which refused to enforce its own laws on immigration and which made efforts to protect the human rights of illegal aliens more thoroughly than that government protected the rights of its own citizens and they found in Trump a standard bearer for that anger.

    Familiar names from proud political pedigrees -- the establishment -- were the target of this anger. Those supporting Trump chose a person who used the loopholes in the law to his own advantage over a person who set aside or arguably broke the law for her own convenience and enrichment.

    That anger at the collective establishment -- and those who "felt the burn" were fellow travelers in this -- was the...pardon me...Trump card for this entire election season.
    Last edited by Seamus Fermanagh; 11-09-2016 at 20:50.
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  6. #1296

    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Interesting comments:

    "Germany and America are bound together by values - democracy, freedom, respecting the rule of law, people's dignity regardless of their origin, the colour of their skin, religion, gender, sexual orientation or political views… On the basis of these values, I am offering to work closely with the future President of the United States Donald Trump."

    - German Chancellor Angela Merkel
    Striking choice of words.

    "Their world is collapsing. Ours is being built."

    - French National Front Vice President Florian Philippot
    I don't like the sound of that!

    "We wish your excellency success in your mission to achieve security and stability in the Middle East and worldwide."

    - Saudi King Salman
    Is this more or less opaque than it sounds?
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  7. #1297
    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    What i am afraid of is that Trump wants to make state level deals and appeal to his voting base, he will indeed pull US out of Europe. In a way that is rather self deserving for Europe, for relying to US for so long.

    The thing is that once US will be out Euros are going to understand that Russia has become a real threat more so with Brexit. I think at that point the "elite" politicians will have to make room for the more patriotic and populist candidates as well in countries like France and Germany in order to proper issue the threats that are looming. At that point maybe we will all be ready yet again at another round of World War. I sincerely hope not, but remains to be seen.
    The people I talked to today about this election all said the very same thing you are saying here.

    We have been relying too much on the US to protect us for way too long.

    But I doubt the current bunch of idiots running the show here in Europe will understand this in time.
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  8. #1298
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

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    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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  9. #1299
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    You did the same thing in the Brexit thread. Your opinions are effete, salon room abstractions that only serve to stroke the egos of those in your circle. You offer nothing, other than a pithy meme and your own smug sense of superiority.

    This is a little dramatized but the main points are there https://youtu.be/YY-CiPVo_NQ

    The working class was willing to look past the henious things he said and did because they have been lied to for so long. Pride cometh before the fall.
    I have always tried to vote for candidates who I find convincing, because they support their views with sound arguments and data. Generally those are candidates which are part of the "elite" that people like Trump like to whine about.

    If that counts as saloon room abstractions, so be it. I am not ashamed about it and I won't apologize for it. Screw the "working class" in that case.

    FYI, I'm a low income worker. Most of my collegues wouldn't vote for a guy like Trump either. "Working class" in a context like this is just a euphenism for intellectually lazy people who get their political beliefs from their gut. And I don't mean lowly educated- there's a difference.

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  10. #1300
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    You did the same thing in the Brexit thread. Your opinions are effete, salon room abstractions that only serve to stroke the egos of those in your circle. You offer nothing, other than a pithy meme and your own smug sense of superiority.

    This is a little dramatized but the main points are there https://youtu.be/YY-CiPVo_NQ

    The working class was willing to look past the henious things he said and did because they have been lied to for so long. Pride cometh before the fall.
    After watvhing that I want to vote for Trump.

    But, yeah, I get it. He's saying he's going to use the government to punish capitalists for taking advantage of globalisation.

    As in, he's saying he'll use the government FOR the people,not just try to balance the government ledger.
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  11. #1301

    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Something something Mackinder hilltops and valleys
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  12. #1302
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Monty, there seems to be lot to read between the lines of those quotes. Apparently so many want so much from US, compared how little some of the US people want to have anything to do with any of those wishes. I think it was Yoda who said something about power and about great responsibility that comes with great power....

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    The people I talked to today about this election all said the very same thing you are saying here.

    We have been relying too much on the US to protect us for way too long.

    But I doubt the current bunch of idiots running the show here in Europe will understand this in time.
    Maybe we Euros ought to stop derailing this thread and instead start our own thread concerning what all this might do to Europe?
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  13. #1303

    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Yoda who said something about power and about great responsibility that comes with great power....
    That's more Spiderman.

    Anyway, the Mackinder reference:

    Democracy implies rule by consent of the average citizen, who does not view things from the hill-tops, for he must be at his work in the fertile plains. There is no good in railing at the characteristics of popular government, for they are its qualities and no mere defects.
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  14. #1304
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    I have always tried to vote for candidates who I find convincing, because they support their views with sound arguments and data. Generally those are candidates which are part of the "elite" that people like Trump like to whine about.

    If that counts as saloon room abstractions, so be it. I am not ashamed about it and I won't apologize for it. Screw the "working class" in that case.

    FYI, I'm a low income worker. Most of my collegues wouldn't vote for a guy like Trump either. "Working class" in a context like this is just a euphenism for intellectually lazy people who get their political beliefs from their gut. And I don't mean lowly educated- there's a difference.
    When has Hillary ever supported anything soundly? Maybe the early 90s when she was on about healthcare? They tried to shove her down our throats because, and I quote, "it's her turn". What the hell kind of message is that to the electorate? For 30 years she said she would help the middle class and for 30 years they have been dying on the vine.

    These elites have sold middle America a bag of lies. They've gutted unions, destroyed heath care, taken away jobs, left the infrastructure to rot, and spent American blood on forigen misadventures. Trump is shifty snake oil salesman with no real convictions, but he isn't them and that's what matters.

    You people still can't see past your nose.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  15. #1305
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    You are getting lost in the minutiae and the abstractions. Monty may be the smartest man I have never met but something tells me he would be a poor executive. Policy wonks tend to make poor elected leaders.

    You don't have to agree with these people. You do have to understand their pain. You have to be able to look them in the eyes and understand why they feel the way that they do in a way that numbers and political maxims can't.

    is it really that hard to see?
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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  16. #1306
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    You are getting lost in the minutiae and the abstractions. Monty may be the smartest man I have never met but something tells me he would be a poor executive. Policy wonks tend to make poor elected leaders.

    You don't have to agree with these people. You do have to understand their pain. You have to be able to look them in the eyes and understand why they feel the way that they do in a way that numbers and political maxims can't.

    is it really that hard to see?
    Thus endeth the lesson.
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  17. #1307
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    After watvhing that I want to vote for Trump.

    But, yeah, I get it. He's saying he's going to use the government to punish capitalists for taking advantage of globalisation.

    As in, he's saying he'll use the government FOR the people,not just try to balance the government ledger.
    Not in a million years would I vote for someone like Trump. But the Americans have every right to elect whoever they wish, whatever Euros and (since we're going to be separate) Anglos think. It's up to our governments to find a way of making this work together.

  18. #1308

    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Monty may be the smartest man I have never met but something tells me he would be a poor executive.
    Praise, but I'm pretty much a more self-conscious, less driven Trump in my character. We'll see.
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  19. #1309
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    You are getting lost in the minutiae and the abstractions. Monty may be the smartest man I have never met but something tells me he would be a poor executive. Policy wonks tend to make poor elected leaders.

    You don't have to agree with these people. You do have to understand their pain. You have to be able to look them in the eyes and understand why they feel the way that they do in a way that numbers and political maxims can't.

    is it really that hard to see?
    At the end of the day, this is why Bill won and why Hillary cannot.
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  20. #1310
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    When has Hillary ever supported anything soundly? Maybe the early 90s when she was on about healthcare? They tried to shove her down our throats because, and I quote, "it's her turn". What the hell kind of message is that to the electorate? For 30 years she said she would help the middle class and for 30 years they have been dying on the vine.
    You have every right to disagree with me about HRC. Especially because you're an American and I'm not, and know more about your own politics than I do. But I do recognize some of the sentiments in US political discussions, like the frustrations you mentioned. There are snake oil salesmen here too, who claim that they'll fix what the elite have broken, and that you're selling yourself short if you're not voting for them.

    You don't have to agree with these people. You do have to understand their pain. You have to be able to look them in the eyes and understand why they feel the way that they do in a way that numbers and political maxims can't.
    That makes it sound like everybody who voted for Trump came out of a John Steinbeck novel. I can, and I do, feel sorry for people who have a hard life. I just don't appreciate it when these people are used against me as a prop, to make me feel guilty about voting for "the elite".

    Trump Tower was built on the backs of illegal Polish workers who were scammed out of their wages after the fact. As for "deleting e-mails", Trump's companies have on multiple occasions deliberately destroyed business records (including e-mails) when it became apparent that the opposing party in lawsuits would try to gain acces to them by requesting discovery.
    Trump has never been a politician before, and even so there's a mountain of evidence of his contempt for the law, for poor people and basic human decency. That people are trying to paint him as a champion of the downtrodden is downright laughable.

    So, again: I feel sorry for people who are faced with economic hardships. I think it's presumptuous to assume that they would naturally vote for Trump, and in my opinion they would be wrong to do so. Quite frankly, if these people vote for Trump for no other reason than feeling short-changed and wanting to kick the "elite" in the nuts, I would put that down under stupidity.
    Last edited by Kralizec; 11-09-2016 at 23:32.

  21. #1311
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    ...Trump Tower was built on the backs of illegal Polish workers who were scammed out of their wages after the fact. As for "deleting e-mails", Trump's companies have on multiple occasions deliberately destroyed business records (including e-mails) when it became apparent that the opposing party in lawsuits would try to gain acces to them by requesting discovery.
    Trump has never been a politician before, and even so there's a mountain of evidence of his contempt for the law, for poor people and basic human decency. That people are trying to paint him as a champion of the downtrodden is downright laughable.
    ....
    That is why I used the phrase "standard bearer for their anger." I was never claiming he embodied their values -- he may or may not and probably both as people are complex -- only that he tapped into them and became their representative. He "felt their pain" as Strike suggests. They rewarded him for it.

    Heck, at the rallies following the Billy Bush "Open Mike" reveal by Access Hollywood, some women were sporting this tee shirt...
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    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  22. #1312

    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency
    Is this more or less opaque than it sounds?
    Basically, whatever changes to the DoD contracts Trump has in mind, he'll gladly pay like a good little king. Under the table stuff included.

  23. #1313
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Personally, I think it is a sign of a greater political movement occurring in multiple countries. So it is more a "sign of the times" rather than some completely out of the blue occurrence. The far-right have been gaining momentum across the world, and it appeals to the same common base as it did back in the 1930s-40s after the Great Depression. These are people affected the worse, and look towards a strongman/desperate solution to the problems, the one who promises them the world, at the expense of the world. It led to the growth of UKIP, National Front, Party for Freedom, Golden Dawn, etc. It led to Brexit, and now the US election. There is a serious possibility that the National Front in power within France is next.
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  24. #1314

    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec
    if these people vote for Trump for no other reason than feeling short-changed and wanting to kick the "elite" in the nuts, I would put that down under stupidity.
    Who else would they vote for? Clinton's entire campaign studiously ignored those whom Trump spoke to as political actors, perhaps thinking they just wouldn't count for much. This is a fundamental political mistake that should haunt her base, even those who would go so far as to want to extirpate all non-Democrats from the country.
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  25. #1315
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Listening to your voters, making sure you hear their pleas and their grievances and acting on their disappointment and resentment should always be the way forward. No exception. Listen to your voters, listen to their problems and subsequently act on it if you get elected into office.

    But not done in this way. Not with this election circus. Not with all of the horrific statements said on TV.

    Not like this.
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  26. #1316
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Personally, I think it is a sign of a greater political movement occurring in multiple countries. So it is more a "sign of the times" rather than some completely out of the blue occurrence. The far-right have been gaining momentum across the world, and it appeals to the same common base as it did back in the 1930s-40s after the Great Depression. These are people affected the worse, and look towards a strongman/desperate solution to the problems, the one who promises them the world, at the expense of the world. It led to the growth of UKIP, National Front, Party for Freedom, Golden Dawn, etc. It led to Brexit, and now the US election. There is a serious possibility that the National Front in power within France is next.
    In the UK the movement has led to greater influence both for the far right, in UKIP, and the far left, in Corbyn. Some people even manage to combine the two.

  27. #1317
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    In the UK the movement has led to greater influence both for the far right, in UKIP, and the far left, in Corbyn. Some people even manage to combine the two.
    I think you are hinting at the SNP there. Almost included them in the list I gave, but it would muddy my point a little too much. Socialists also increased in popularity too post Great Depression.
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  28. #1318

    Default Re: POTUS thread

    A bad list, but at least it's an easy reference checklist (the 100-day plan).

    I'll pick just one item to snark on:

    Reforms will also include cutting the red tape at the FDA: there are
    over 4,000 drugs awaiting approval, and we especially want
    to speed the approval of life-saving medications.
    Any red tape effect is largely a product of lack of funding and personnel. Assign the FDA more funding and personnel to speed the process. As it is, the FDA does the bare minimum it is legally required to as it lacks time and resources.
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  29. #1319
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Expanding the FDA would be a good idea if Trump also didnt propose a hiring freeze for all federal employees so yeah. But I suppose he wouldnt have much of an issue with pushing through drugs that arent fully tested.
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  30. #1320
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    I've been reading/listening to a good bit of discussion about this election and one thing that jumped out at me was the case the Obama completely gutted the Democratic party.

    He was a personally likable/popular president that kept shoving unpopular policies. He didn't feel much pain from it due to his personal popularity, but his party suffered significant damage. I forget the exact numbers, but over 1000 local, state and federal Democrat office-holders have lost their seats since Obama came into office. He had a majority in both houses of Congress and lost both. The majority of state legislatures and overwhelming majority of state governors are GOP controlled. It was an interesting angle I hadn't really thought much about.

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