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Thread: Duchies of Medieval Germany

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    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Duchies of Medieval Germany

    Stammesherzogtümer - or as they're known in English, German stem duchies.

    In essence, my question relates to how these duchies operated in early, high and even late middle ages. The Holy Roman Empire was a very powerful kingdom (Empire?), but it was made up of all these stem duchies controlled by powerful dukes and barons who supplied both the manpower and the economic wealth that kept the Empire together and allowed the Habsburg Empire to thrive.

    Below is a detailed map of the HRE in the year 1400.



    How did this whole complex arrangement work?

    The map contains at least 40 different duchies, dukedoms, margraviates and small (Italian) republics.

    It's fascinatingly remarkable that the HRE was a unified and powerful empire right from Otto the Ist and up to the Napoleonic Wars.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by edyzmedieval; 05-04-2015 at 19:47.
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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post

    It's fascinatingly remarkable that the HRE was a unified and powerful empire right from Otto the Ist and up to the Napoleonic Wars.

    Thoughts?
    AFAIK it was a long way from being a unified and powerful empire by the Napoleonic War era. By then, the crown was sold by a handful of nobles to the highest bidder, and was purely for prestige. It conferred no power. Of course the emperor would be someone powerful, such as the Archduke of Austria, but that was only because you had to be rich and powerful to buy the crown.

    I don't really know much about the empire's history, but my guess is that the real question in the middle ages wasn't how powerful is the empire, but how powerful is the emperor? An emperor with enough power and prestige to keep his unruly nobles in line would be a power to reckon with. An emperor who had trouble doing so would not be much of a problem. Not that different from other medieval monarchs, in that way.
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    The leader of that ... thing was actually someone with two powers - first of all he was King of the Germans and only if he made it to Rome, he became the Holy Roman Emperor.

    The HRE wasn't unified and it was only as powerful as the current king was within his own lands (Saxony for Otto and his sons, or Austria for the Habsburgs). Most of the times they quarreled among each other over territories or rights or whatever.

    Usually they went for the strongest duke within the realm when a new king had to be elected. Usually this strongest king made the princes swear loyalty to his son so that some sort of succession existed. Usually one or more princes didn't give a s**t about that oath when the old king died, hence that lovely tradition of anti-kings (Gegenkönig), and - after each election - of having to subdue one or more princes with other designs.

    When one dynasty died out, things got problematic, because usually - as Brandy Blue said - the strongest prince bought/bribed/threatened the electors to vote for him. But that didn't always work, resulting in a deadlock. In that case, sometimes the electors voted for someone weak and unproblematic. The german word would be "Verlegenheitskandidat". I don't know an english equivalent to this.
    Rudolf I. von Habsburg was such a guy. Not running for office at all, moderately wealthy, not too strong militarily, why not take him? Shouldn't be too much of a problem to handle, right? :-D

    Imperial power as such was a wobbly thing. Theoretically, the King/Emperor could summon the imperial host, i.e. contingents from all imperial princes for a limited time. Otto I. did so against the Hungarians, Barbarossa did so for his campaign in Italy. That institution lived on until the 7yrs war, where the Austrians actually led some sort of imperial, not only austrian army against Prussia. Although I doubt anyone noticed.

    What's my point? HRE was before all an idea, that could be strong in the early and high middle ages but became nothing more than a dear tradition towards the end. Politically nothing much changed for anyone when the HRE was disbanded in 1806. Well, apart from all the major changes of that era. But these were brought about by Napoleon, not the disbandment of the HRE.

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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    I don't know German, but after a bit of messing on the internet, I think Verlegenheitskandidat means something like "A candidate who is so inadequate [in terms of rank, wealth and power] that its an embarrassment."

    Is that about right, I of the Storm?
    Last edited by Brandy Blue; 05-06-2015 at 03:49.
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    Not quite. The contextual meaning is usually "Well, we have candidates A and B, and neither will get a majority, therefore the election is stuck, which is embarrassing and nobody has a good idea how to get out of the deadlock. Hey, there's C, let's all vote for C, he seems so hapless, we should be able to control him until he dies and we can have a fresh go with proper candidates."
    Which can turn out to be an embarrassment in itself if C is far less hapless than he is perceived.
    Last edited by I of the Storm; 05-06-2015 at 08:46.

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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by I of the Storm View Post
    Not quite. The contextual meaning is usually "Well, we have candidates A and B, and neither will get a majority, therefore the election is stuck, which is embarrassing and nobody has a good idea how to get out of the deadlock. Hey, there's C, let's all vote for C, he seems so hapless, we should be able to control him until he dies and we can have a fresh go with proper candidates."
    Which can turn out to be an embarrassment in itself if C is far less hapless than he is perceived.
    Interesting. We Americans don't have that particular political problem. Instead we get the problems that go with a winner takes all election system combined with a checks and balances aka gridlock system.

    In the British system they do sometimes have trouble "forming a government." I think they usually deal with it by setting up a power sharing arrangement. Perhaps they should call it a Verlegenheitsregierung? :)
    Last edited by Brandy Blue; 05-06-2015 at 23:58.
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandy Blue View Post
    ...Perhaps they should call it a Verlegenheitsregierung? :)
    That's it, essentially. Here in Germany you have the Conservatives and the Social Democrats going at each other before the election. When that doesn't turn out to be decisive, they have to form a coalition (else: no government). That is embarrassing.

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    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    Thank you for that, I of the Storm, that was quite informative.

    Given that they often elected Emperors who had no significant power, how come the duchies kept their allegiance towards him, and not many (if any) princes became independent? The strongest duchy around that I could think of was Burgundy in the Late Middle Ages, and it wasn't even part of the HRE properly, but other than that, the HRE was still going on strong.
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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    Hm, basically there are (imo) 3 things playing a major role here.

    1. Despite the fact that all the duchies, counties and whatnot were more or less independent feudal entities, there was - since the times of Charlemagnes grandsons - some very vague sort of cultural identity (that has transformed nowadays into the "we are german" identity). So, the thought of leaving the nest and probably falling prey to someone NOT sharing these cultural ties was probably not very appealing.

    2. (Apologies for the scholarly language that follows...) A specific medieval train of thought that culminates in an eschatological/political theory called "translatio imperii". Since Charlemagne, the western emperors of the middle ages saw themselves in direct succession of the Western Roman Emperors (that actually ended with Romulus Augustulus 476). This exaltation gave increased legitimacy and authority, especially during the dark ages, when it was formulated. This is visible in high medieval chronicles that - expressis verbis - count the medieval emperors as "the 76th since Octavian" or smth like that. The second pillar - and my memory isn't what it used to be here - of that theory is the book of Daniel, namely the part where he is asked by Nabuchodonosor to explain the dream about the colossus to him. He dreamt of a colossus with a head of gold, a breast of silver, belly and loins of bronze, legs of iron, and feet partially of iron and of clay. The babylonian king was puzzled and asked the jew, who was said to be wise, what that meant. Daniel explained, that this was a vision of things to come: There is but one empire (worldly power) upon earth. The babylonian empire (at that time the most powerful) is the golden head. After that another one will take the empire (silver, persian empire), and another one (bronze, Alexanders empire) and finally a split empire (Roman empire, west and east, partially iron (hard) and clay (brittle)). The colossus then gets destroyed (=end of the world, beginning of the apocalypse). Since nobody was particularly keen to see the end of the world begin, there was a certain interest in keeping both empires alive, therefore a succession of current emperors to the western roman ones was desireable.
    The above holds true until the 15th century, but by then, ecclesiastical teachings had lost much of their value, which brings us to

    3. the thing that should never be underestimated: "Hey, let's just keep things as they always were". Tradition, plus the fact that the german princes didn't want to be ruled by, say, the french or the swedish or anyone else for that matter. Better by one of their one who could be controlled.

    Sounds difficult at first but once you wrap your head around no.2, it's quite simple. Elementary, my dear edyzmedieval.

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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    I of the Storm really seems to know about this stuff.

    Before modern times leaders were conservative. You don't change things without a good reason because 1: tradition is the way things are supposed to be and you find any other way of doing things shocking 2: your own authority is based on pretty much the same traditions that your overlord's authority is based on, so you can't knock him off his pedestal without rocking your own pedestal. Besides, traitor and oath breaker are such ugly words, and can bring both the church and secular society down on your head. So getting official independence would seem like too much bother when they were pretty nearly independent anyway. That's how it looks to me.
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

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    Misanthropos Member I of the Storm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    I worked this soil until I harvested a PhD, so ... yeah.

    I prefer to not show this off too much, but the political thinking of the middle ages is quite the fascinating subject. It's so alien from today's...

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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    Well, I'm definitely glad I asked the question of these duchies.

    Thank you for that, I of the Storm, the academical theory is quite intriguing. I studied medieval military history extensively, and hence why I asked the question of political unity around those places. From this perspective, the unity made little sense, given how much the local princes, barons, dukes and margraves loved to fight, build huge castles and quarrel even for a spot of land.

    And if you have any more info bits that seems fascinating / out of the ordinary, please do share. I'd love to read about it!
    Last edited by edyzmedieval; 05-08-2015 at 13:19.
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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    Will do.

    A small remark on the map you posted: the way I read it, it seems to be some sort of dynasty map. Look at the light green blob to the east. It says the colour represents the Luxemburg dynasty, branching out and extending over multiple territories (Sort of a CKII-dynasty map :-) ). So, it actually is much worse regarding the splintered state than your map makes visible.

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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    That map above is a map I found with regards to the stem duchies, it's relatively appropriate because it gives enough detail to make you understand all of the intricacies that the duchies presented.

    On that note, when the Holy Roman Emperor went to war, all of his vassals (dukes, margraves, electors...) were required to join, or was it a different sort of feudal arrangement?
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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    I don't think that was codified much during the middle ages. Standard feudal law (non-written, customary) required the vassal to raise troops for 40 days, with the possibility to send money instead. Sometimes it was in the interest of the vassal to not join with the liege. While that was a breach of custom, any sanctions that the liege was theoretically entitled to would have to be enforced, which would be rather difficult against a strong vassal (see below no. 2).

    I remember two occasions where there was a mention. 1) Otto I., the Hungarian incursions and the battle of the Lech (955). Here, the chroniclers specifically mention Otto's Saxons and detachments from other german duchies fighting together (Bavarians, Franks, Swabians, Bohemians). One of the rare occasions where the secular powers of the Empire actually cooperated against an external enemy.

    2) Barbarossas war against Lombardy 1176. A testimony of the failure and of the success of the system. Barbarossa waged war against the northern italian cities who defied his rule. Henry the Lion, duke of Saxony (the strongest man in the empire, with own designs upon the throne) refused to follow the emperor and to supply troops. The result was that Barbarossa lost and that consequently the duke of Saxony found himself a couple of years later on the receiving end of the imperial ban, lost his holdings and had to emigrate to England.

    In the later middle ages, the feudal duty to support troops was usually not fulfilled, instead money was given to pay for mercenaries which became dominant more and more.

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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by I of the Storm View Post
    The leader of that ... thing was actually someone with two powers - first of all he was King of the Germans and only if he made it to Rome, he became the Holy Roman Emperor.

    The HRE wasn't unified and it was only as powerful as the current king was within his own lands (Saxony for Otto and his sons, or Austria for the Habsburgs). Most of the times they quarreled among each other over territories or rights or whatever.

    Usually they went for the strongest duke within the realm when a new king had to be elected. Usually this strongest king made the princes swear loyalty to his son so that some sort of succession existed. Usually one or more princes didn't give a s**t about that oath when the old king died, hence that lovely tradition of anti-kings (Gegenkönig), and - after each election - of having to subdue one or more princes with other designs.

    When one dynasty died out, things got problematic, because usually - as Brandy Blue said - the strongest prince bought/bribed/threatened the electors to vote for him. But that didn't always work, resulting in a deadlock. In that case, sometimes the electors voted for someone weak and unproblematic. The german word would be "Verlegenheitskandidat". I don't know an english equivalent to this.
    Rudolf I. von Habsburg was such a guy. Not running for office at all, moderately wealthy, not too strong militarily, why not take him? Shouldn't be too much of a problem to handle, right? :-D

    Imperial power as such was a wobbly thing. Theoretically, the King/Emperor could summon the imperial host, i.e. contingents from all imperial princes for a limited time. Otto I. did so against the Hungarians, Barbarossa did so for his campaign in Italy. That institution lived on until the 7yrs war, where the Austrians actually led some sort of imperial, not only austrian army against Prussia. Although I doubt anyone noticed.

    What's my point? HRE was before all an idea, that could be strong in the early and high middle ages but became nothing more than a dear tradition towards the end. Politically nothing much changed for anyone when the HRE was disbanded in 1806. Well, apart from all the major changes of that era. But these were brought about by Napoleon, not the disbandment of the HRE.
    I think the title used before formal coronation was "King of the Romans". Initially they had to travel to Rome for formal coronation as Emperor, but they often ruled for years before doing so because making the journey was impractical for a ruler. In fact, quite a few never managed to make the journey at all. I'm not sure when, but the requirement was eventually dropped entirely.

    I don't know about bribes or threats during the selection, allthough it wouldn't suprise me at all. I do know that the Habsburgs were severely hampered whenever they tried to implement legal reforms* across the empire, because many Electors demanded exceptions to these policies in exchange for voting for the next Habsburg heir.

    (* If I recall correctly, decades before the ABGB was actually introduced, the Austrains envisioned a Codex that would apply to all the lands of the HRE. Before long they realized they'd have to limit the application to hereditary Habsburg lands.)
    Last edited by Kralizec; 05-11-2015 at 20:04.

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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    ... Initially they had to travel to Rome for formal coronation as Emperor, but they often ruled for years before doing so because making the journey was impractical for a ruler. In fact, quite a few never managed to make the journey at all. I'm not sure when, but the requirement was eventually dropped entirely....
    That would be around 1500, I think by the time of Maximilian I.

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    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    Kralizec raises a good point about the elections, one which I considered as well when I asked the question.

    Given that the later Emperors were pretty much elected, didn't any Emperor attempt to build his own power base? Or the Electors/Margraves were too powerful?
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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    The Habsburgs did at least, but most of the territory they acquired (if that's what you mean) were non-german lands outside the HRE: modern day Czech republic, Slovakia, Hungary and parts of Poland.

    In the end this actually had the effect of excluding Austria from the formation of Germany. Austria favoured a "grossdeutsche losung" ("greater germany solution") but some of the other German states felt that, in such a case, Austria would have to abandon its non-German holdings, which it wasn't prepared to do.
    After Austria was reduced to being only Austria, the prospect of joining Germany was increasingly popular...but we all know how that played out.

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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    Kralizec raises a good point about the elections, one which I considered as well when I asked the question.

    Given that the later Emperors were pretty much elected, didn't any Emperor attempt to build his own power base? Or the Electors/Margraves were too powerful?
    I'm thinking that there was not enough incentive to build a power base that would remain attached to the title Emperor. Even if you had your son elected as heir, there was no guarantee that he would be the next emperor after you die. You might be building up a power base for one of your competitors. No doubt the emperor, whether he was King of Spain, Duke of Austria, or whatever, would try to expand or at least maintain his hereditary power base.
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    I'm not sure I understand edyzmedieval's question. Maybe you could rephrase it?
    Concerning a powerbase attached to the emperor: No such thing existed to my knowledge, for the very reasons Brandy Blue points out - you might be strengthening a rival in the long run and, by strengthening the power base of your house you'd be increasing the chances of election. So, tying anything to the imperial crown was done very reluctantly. AFAIK, only the imperial cities (basically the larger ones) were such a case. They were "reichsunmittelbar" - immediately imperial (?) - and more often than not difficult to handle. Edit: Several monasteries (who could and did hold vast territories as a matter of fact) enjoyed the same status. At the same time, those were "exempt", i.e. excluded from normal ecclesiastical jurisdiction and subject only to the pope. So, they only reported to the emperor and the pope - and how those two got along most of the time is known.
    Also, good point Kralizec. Austria(Hungary/Bohemia/Balcan) had become decidedly ungerman by the end of 19th century.
    Re: the titles of the Emperor - the terminology used is simply put a mess. Nothing fixed here. The more I read up on it, the more desperate I become.
    Last edited by I of the Storm; 05-13-2015 at 00:26.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by I of the Storm View Post
    "reichsunmittelbar" - immediately imperial (?)
    If wiki is right, then the English translation is "Imperial Immediacy." Anyone with this status didn't answer to a feudal overlord, but directly to the emperor. I get the impression that usually this was an advantage because the emperor didn't (or couldn't?) demand as much as an overlord would, and there might be other advantages, such as tax or toll collecting rights, the right to mint coins, etc.

    As far as I can figure out, tenant in chief is the nearest term in English. It meant someone who held his land directly from the king. That would mean a high ranking noble or church official. I'm not at all sure that it means exactly the same thing, though.
    Last edited by Brandy Blue; 05-13-2015 at 01:27.
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

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    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by I of the Storm View Post
    I'm not sure I understand edyzmedieval's question. Maybe you could rephrase it?
    I was asking pretty much about the power the emperors had.

    For example, let's look at Frederick I Barbarossa, the most important emperor from the Hohenstaufen dynasty. He might not be the best example, because even by contemporary accounts he was considered a formidable emperor, but it's worth noting that Frederick had his own power base because he came from two distinguished families and he had his own personal power. The army was loyal to him, he became Holy Roman Emperor with an official coronation and apart from Henry the Lion (who was his own cousin), nobody really opposed him, not even the prince-electors. Furthermore, gathering almost 100.000 men for a Crusade was something out of the ordinary, since nobody else managed to do it.

    Yes, Frederick was a very capable administrator, commander and politically capable as well. But the only real problems he had were with the rebellious neighbours like the Milanese and the Norman kingdom in Sicily.

    So, essentially, Frederick had his own power. He had some before he came HRE, but it was because of his family.

    Brandy Blue makes a good point - that it might not be worth it. But sitting idly on the throne and taking orders from the prince-electors wouldn't have been exactly the most ideal sort of job you wanted as the emperor of pretty much a considerable part of Europe.

    Did other emperors attempt to do the same, to have their own personal power, or were they at the hands of the Prince-Electors?


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec
    The Habsburgs did at least...
    Exactly. They managed to do it, but they did it essentially by holding lands that were outside the Germanic area of stem duchies.
    Last edited by edyzmedieval; 05-13-2015 at 09:51.
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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    This thread is great, thanks for everyone for contributing

    Quote Originally Posted by I of the Storm View Post
    Also, good point Kralizec. Austria(Hungary/Bohemia/Balcan) had become decidedly ungerman by the end of 19th century.
    Re: the titles of the Emperor - the terminology used is simply put a mess. Nothing fixed here. The more I read up on it, the more desperate I become.

    Were those lands predominately Germanic at some point? I know very little about the period between the great migrations and the mid/late middle ages.

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    State of Mind Member z3n's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandy Blue View Post
    If wiki is right, then the English translation is "Imperial Immediacy." Anyone with this status didn't answer to a feudal overlord, but directly to the emperor. I get the impression that usually this was an advantage because the emperor didn't (or couldn't?) demand as much as an overlord would, and there might be other advantages, such as tax or toll collecting rights, the right to mint coins, etc.

    As far as I can figure out, tenant in chief is the nearest term in English. It meant someone who held his land directly from the king. That would mean a high ranking noble or church official. I'm not at all sure that it means exactly the same thing, though.

    Right, a Reichsgraf would enjoy imperial immediacy which could also be granted by writ of the emperor. There were also imperial knights too (although I forget the actual name), as I only looked into Reichsgrafen for personal reasons.

    And from what I read, those who had imperial immediacy would often be close to the emperor and have his interests in mind and or enjoy the emperors favor. Of course not having a duke to lord it over you but the emperor themselves conferred social standing as well. You'd also have a vote at the Reichstag along with the ability to attain a high post like overall generalship of a select part of the army. Which is something the vast majority of normal counts wouldn't be able to do, because a Reichsgraf would be a Hochadel or high nobility. (on a level of grand dukes/princes etc)

    By the way- fun fact. Even one who could only claim say, a barony and as such is not a Hochadel, if they're an Uradel (old nobility) the german Uradel who are Hochadel would think them equal due to the age of their 'noble' blood. Whereas those who are not Uradel are lesser. (nowdays anyway)
    Last edited by z3n; 05-14-2015 at 05:30.

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    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    This thread is great, thanks for everyone for contributing
    Ditto, really informative.

    Were those lands predominately Germanic at some point? I know very little about the period between the great migrations and the mid/late middle ages.
    Bohemia had a large Germanic contingent in the medieval period, because it often switched allegiance either to the HRE or to other kingdoms.

    Balkan area, not so much.
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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post

    By the way- fun fact. Even one who could only claim say, a barony and as such is not a Hochadel, if they're an Uradel (old nobility) the german Uradel who are Hochadel would think them equal due to the age of their 'noble' blood. Whereas those who are not Uradel are lesser. (nowdays anyway)
    I'm not sure, but I think you're telling us is that nobles of "old blood" (Uradel) considered each other socially superior to "new creations," even if the new creation held a higher rank on the feudal ladder than the noble of "old blood." Something like that?
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

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    State of Mind Member z3n's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    Yes

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    Misanthropos Member I of the Storm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post

    Were those lands predominately Germanic at some point? I know very little about the period between the great migrations and the mid/late middle ages.
    Not that I know of, with the exception of Bohemia. Bohemia/Moravia had been settled by slavic tribes since the late migration period. The first thing in written history we know about is the Realm of Samo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samo), who apparently achieved some sort of unification of several slavic tribes that had enough integrity and importance to make it into some early medieval chronicles, namely because of it's interaction with merowingian Francia.
    More important was Great Moravia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Moravia), from early 9th century to it's demise by the hands of the Hungarians before 907.
    They were apparently able to politically and/or militarily withstand Carolingian Francia for a prolonged period of time until the Hungarians - by then entering Europe in great numbers - occupied them. Great Moravia was quite advanced in fortification technology for example, but ultimately couldn't withstand the hungarian rider hordes. Their neighbours, Bavaria (who hastily adopted some of their fortification tech), were defeated in the Battle of Bratislava in 907, which led to the loss of large parts of the Eastern March (Ostmark - Austria) and left the empire open to their incursions.
    When the duke of Saxony, Heinrich, was elected King (ending the frankish dynasty) in 919, this was the most immediate problem he had to deal with. The Hungarians raided more or less on a yearly basis, forcing him to sign a 10 years truce and paying tributes in 926. Here we see one of the early and rare occasions when the King did something for the realm as a whole. He decreed the so-called "Burgenordnung" (castle order?): Of every 9 free men he selected one to participate in building fortifications in selected places, constructing barracks for the other 8, while they in turn took care of his fields for him and stored 1/3 of the harvest within these fortifications. Thus he created what would later characterize the Marches - fortified borderlands with a certain depth and a military infrastructure. He also brought his heavy cavalry up to snuff, tested it against some northern elbian slavic tribes and when he felt he was ready, canceled the truce. In the battle of Riade 933, he defeated the Hungarians and put an end to their incursions temporarily. Otto I. finished them later at the Lechfeld.

    What was left of Great Moravia, later Bohemia, came under strong German cultural influence, to the point where bohemian nobility emulated german culture, spoke the language (we have manuscripts in German containing the Nibelungenlied and other epic texts from Bohemia, that means this stuff was part of courtly entertainment) etc. They married heavily into other german noble families, bringing the Luxemburg dynasty on the bohemian throne in the 14th ct, and producing a couple of German Kings and Emperors.
    Hungary and the Balcans were never noticeably germanized to my knowledge.

    Edit: great thread btw! Good to see a discussion going on here again.
    Last edited by I of the Storm; 05-15-2015 at 09:38.

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    Default Re: Duchies of Medieval Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    Yes
    Well, yes that is an interesting "fun fact." The German terminology threw me, but the attitude sounds very like that of an "old family" baronet from a Jane Austin novel. Meanwhile, we Americans have organizations that you can only join if you have acceptable ancestry - Order of the First Families of Virginia for one, and Daughters of the American Revolution for another. Languages differ, but snobbery is universal.
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

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