Attitude towards money.

[spankythehippo]

In relation to the capitalism thread (which I didn't read), what is your stance on money? Good, bad or neither?

I have no problem with money. Money isn't evil, it's an inanimate artificial construct. I do have a problem with peoples value for money. They often bend over backwards in order to get it, sacrificing happiness and contentment, which ironically is what they seek by earning more money.

Sure, money creates a divide between the rich and poor. It's not the money doing it, it's the people. Those of us who are poor, why does it matter if someone has more than you, if you're alive and well? Those of us who are rich, how much do you really need? What is this obsession with materialism that drives people crazy? I don't understand this greed aspect of humanity. "I have more than you do." Who cares? I've seen plenty of insanely rich people living miserable lives. And here I am with less than $10 to my name, as happy as can be.

So there's my answer to capitalism, a system where you get paid for the work you produce. In an effort to make as much money as possible, some people will exploit others to make more of it, inherently driven by greed. Also, the issue of work is a biggie. I don't consider what Kim Kardashian does as work. She relies on a model that has been laid out in front of her, which she uses to earn money using her fame, status and booty. Another instance of greed. No one NEEDS millions of dollars. Most people would LIKE to.

So that brings up capitalism vs communism. I remember learning about the Vietnam War in high school. We looked at propaganda posters that said "Better dead than red!". That seemed like a very extreme viewpoint to me. In essence, "I'd rather be dead than live a life slightly different to the one I currently live". Maybe I'm understating the "slightly" part, but that is the overall attitude. Trouble with communism is that it has traditionally been a state mandated principle. I'm a communist, I suppose. I believe in the power of community, the root word of communism. I believe in the sense of community, which should be instilled in society, but not enforced. If it were enforced, like it has been, everyone will have equal amounts of stuff, but it will be "shitty" (to most people). If society were adjusted to everyone's base needs, we would live in a very Spartan society. A very stale and stagnant society that doesn't promote creativity and advancement, since people wont make money off their inventions and innovations. Unless their intention is to make the world a better place. Money is a driving force in many people's lives, since it brings a sense of accomplishment. Which is a very personal feeling. People see themselves as individuals, and not members of a larger group. As such, they need to validate their existence by being different. Sadly, a lot of people want to be different by having more money.

So capitalism vs communism?



Everyone strives to be the best they can be, earning money while they do so. When they have more than they need, they can help others who don't have the liberty to do so. A very utopian scenario, but I think it's possible. Only when everyone adopts the right attitude. Of course, there will be dole bludgers (or people who live off the state for you non-Aussies). The reason they are dole bludgers is because they don't have the right attitude.

I was on the train, heading towards Campbelltown, which is not exactly the Manhattan of Sydney. I met two dudes on the train. One was an old due with a boiler suit, and he was going to work. The other was a middle aged guy, and a bogan (i.e. a redneck of Australia). We were all talking about what we were doing. Old guy was going to work, bogan was going to his daughters netball game. Old guy was saying that he only works 10 hours a week so he doesn't have to pay tax. Bogan says the same thing. Both of them had a bad attitude towards work, but had the right attitude about money. They only need so much of it, so they do less work. They have one desire, to do what they want. And what they want isn't much.

Other people, on the other hand, have the same desire. To do what they want. But what they want is a lot more expensive than these two dudes.

I know plenty of people who are in high-paying jobs, but they hate what they do. I ask them "So why do you do it?". The worst response I hear is "I'm passionate about business." What I hear is "I'm passionate about making money from business." I'm a scientist, by trade. I don't do it for the money, hell it's not a high paying job. I do it because I love this world, and want to know more about it. And I make money from it (at least, I would if I finish my studies). It seems to me that people don't follow their passions or their dreams. They live in a very superficial world where it's basically a penis size competition.

Is it hard to want less and still be happy? I don't think it is, since I've done it quite easily. But then again, I could be very naive about this concept of greed. I could be naive about everything, and I'm the biggest idiot in the world.

What are your thoughts?

[wooly_mammoth]

There is no such thing as capitalism vs communism. Communism is essentially the greatest way to piss on other human beings that humanity has ever come up with.

I'm not saying that capitalism and democracy are perfect, particularly this kind of capitalism they want to impose in Europe where corporations can outrule national laws and this kind of democracy where even the piss-poor and starved half-troglodytes in backwater villages with no sense of responsibility or reality vote en-masse for corrupt politicians that keep them poor and uneducated in exchange for a bucket and a bag of flour every couple of years. But they are better than any other ideas humanity has had so far and certainly better in any possible circumstances than communism.

[spankythehippo]

There is no such thing as capitalism vs communism. Communism is essentially the greatest way to piss on other human beings that humanity has ever come up with.

I'm not saying that capitalism and democracy are perfect, particularly this kind of capitalism they want to impose in Europe where corporations can outrule national laws and this kind of democracy where even the piss-poor and starved half-troglodytes in backwater villages with no sense of responsibility or reality vote en-masse for corrupt politicians that keep them poor and uneducated in exchange for a bucket and a bag of flour every couple of years. But they are better than any other ideas humanity has had so far and certainly better in any possible circumstances than communism.

I feel that ideologies aren't like oil and water. They can be miscible. Which is why I don't agree with enforced communism, but endorse a sense of community. Communism seems like a dirty word to some people. I think it's just an imperfect system. It tried to fix a certain problem, i.e. inequality. But it tried to do so by forcing everyone to adhere to its tenets. There will always be dissenters. Which is why I don't think it should be enforced.

We can all live in a democratic, capitalist society with a spirit of community. It doesn't seem that hard to achieve. But now I remember a quote by Dale Carnegie. "When dealing with people, let us remember we are not dealing with creatures of logic. We are dealing with creatures of emotion, creatures bristling with prejudices and motivated by pride and vanity."

[wooly_mammoth]

Oh, on paper communism is quite perfect. The problem is that when you try to realize it in real life, what you end up with is a bunch of unchecked morons in charge that can no longer be disposed of. At least in democracy you can vote for the other guys that seem to be the lesser morons when the elections come, so no one gets the chance to become the ultimate moron and screw everyone else over.

For once, the americans were actually smart in this particular regard and figured out that real-world communism is crap since the New Harmony experiment of Robert Owen. Us european guys had to learn it the hard way and I think that by now we're all pretty square on the fact that communism doesn't lead to anything good in real life. As far as I'm concerned, it's a dead ideology that has proven it's inadequacy in every conceivable shape or form, and I'd rather have it rotting away in an unmarked grave.

[spankythehippo]

Oh, on paper communism is quite perfect. The problem is that when you try to realize it in real life, what you end up with is a bunch of unchecked morons in charge that can no longer be disposed of. At least in democracy you can vote for the other guys that seem to be the lesser morons when the elections come, so no one gets the chance to become the ultimate moron and screw everyone else over.

For once, the americans were actually smart in this particular regard and figured out that real-world communism is crap since the New Harmony experiment of Richard Owen. Us european guys had to learn it the hard way and I think that by now we're all pretty square on the fact that communism doesn't lead to anything good in real life. As far as I'm concerned, it's a dead ideology that has proven it's inadequacy in every conceivable shape or form, and I'd rather have it rotting away in an unmarked grave.

So what's preventing us as human beings from implementing the core aspects of community without government interference?

[wooly_mammoth]

Umm, the fact that most humans don't want an "equalitarian" community?

[Husar]

Why can't we have a communist democracy? Everybody seems to assume that there can only be one party in a communist system, but just because that has been the case historically I do not quite see why it would always have to be the case. Even within a communist system you could have dofferent ideas such as different methods to control production, different foreign policy and so on based on which the people could vote for different parties. And you could have marginalized capitalist parties that never get into government just like the communist parties we have now. Greece being a bit of an exception due to the circumstances.

Umm, the fact that most humans don't want an "equalitarian" community?

Ironic, isn't it? Because most of them complain about the others, yet praise the greed that leads to the others getting on their nerves. Apparently conflict is our natural state of being.

[wooly_mammoth]

Hey, conflict is the engine of progress. Without the drive coming from the need to kill competing species or humans, we really wouldn't be anywhere today.

[spankythehippo]

Hey, conflict is the engine of progress. Without the drive coming from the need to kill competing species or humans, we really wouldn't be anywhere today.

Although that is true, does it justify the need to kill in present times? Humanity has never known a Golden Age, a time where there is only harmony, peace and prosperity. Who's to say we cant progress under that circumstance?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Hey, conflict is the engine of progress. Without the drive coming from the need to kill competing species or humans, we really wouldn't be anywhere today.

This is completely wrong and people who believe this scare me.

[Husar]

This is completely wrong and people who believe this scare me.

So he has already won that contest against you.

[Greyblades]

Although that is true, does it justify the need to kill in present times? Humanity has never known a Golden Age, a time where there is only harmony, peace and prosperity. Who's to say we cant progress under that circumstance?

I don't think we have the same definition of golden age.

[Gilrandir]

Is it still about the money or about communism vs capitalism?

They often bend over backwards in order to get it, sacrificing happiness and contentment, which ironically is what they seek by earning more money.

There is a jocular statement: I don't want to EARN more money, I want to RECEIVE more money.

Those of us who are poor, why does it matter if someone has more than you, if you're alive and well? Those of us who are rich, how much do you really need?

You are rich not when you have a lot of money, but when you have enough.

I know plenty of people who are in high-paying jobs, but they hate what they do. I ask them "So why do you do it?". The worst response I hear is "I'm passionate about business." What I hear is "I'm passionate about making money from business."

And what I don't understand about such dudes is that they spend 24 hours a day making money and don't actually have any time left to enjoy that money. Why do you need a yacht if you don't have time to sail it?

Is it hard to want less and still be happy? I don't think it is, since I've done it quite easily. But then again, I could be very naive about this concept of greed. I could be naive about everything, and I'm the biggest idiot in the world.

I saw quite numerous ratings of countries whose citizens consider themselves happy and, curiously, the happiest people live not (only) in well-to-do countries, but some ratings are headed by Honduras or India or some other such countries. Definitely, money doesn't matter that much to them.
As they say, happiness is like health: if you don't notice it, you are happy/healthy.

[spankythehippo]

I don't think we have the same definition of golden age.

"By extension "Golden Age" denotes a period of primordial peace, harmony, stability, and prosperity."

[Gilrandir]

"By extension "Golden Age" denotes a period of primordial peace, harmony, stability, and prosperity."

... which never was.

[Husar]

... which never was.

That's what he said!

[Gilrandir]

That's what he said!

Not in the sentence I completed.

[Fisherking]

@ the OP, I think the quest for money for some isn't about happiness but about security. For them, it's more from fear,then power, that they always seek more and can never have enough.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I remember a study that said people reached a saturation of happiness due to money at about 70,000 dollars per year. Beyond that, any additional money did not confer additional long term happiness.

[Montmorency]

I reached my happiness saturation in my mid teens.

[Greyblades]

You earned 70 grand a year... at 16? What did you do?

[Gilrandir]

I remember a study that said people reached a saturation of happiness due to money at about 70,000 dollars per year. Beyond that, any additional money did not confer additional long term happiness.

How utterly unhappy Bill Gates must be.

[rory_20_uk]

How utterly unhappy Bill Gates must be.

No happier - not that you get less happy.

Once the basic things are taken care of, people manage to get equally stressed / jealous about all sorts of crap. Apparently the way to be happiest is to earn more than those you perceive as your cohort. Perhaps this is why TV increasingly makes things worse as people see the reality TV "stars" and what they get up to and view they should have the same and therefore are unhappy that they don't.

I know that I am no happier because of the extra money I earn that 5 years ago. In both cases I earned enough for a roof, food and transport and so had no real concerns.