Canada's Ugly Secret

[Pannonian]

I meant only the areas of Europe that were roman, not all roman territory.
Although now that I looked it up for 10 secs, it would indeed get a bit odd if we were to use roman names: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(Roman_province)

Whether or not we use the classical geography of Europe to define inclusion, surely we can use it to define exclusion, ie. that Germans are not Europeans. After all, that's your game at the start of this discussion, wasn't it?

[Husar]

Whether or not we use the classical geography of Europe to define inclusion, surely we can use it to define exclusion, ie. that Germans are not Europeans. After all, that's your game at the start of this discussion, wasn't it?

That Britain is not part of mainland Europe is a geographical fact, whether the Romans were able to conquer some people or not is hardly a proper way to define a geographical area or the common culture of people 1500 years or more after the fact.
And it was PVC who said he has nothing in common with the Greeks, the Spaniards and the Italians, all of whom were ironically all part of the roman empire that you both now say defines some kind of common europeanality.

The point is that Canada needs to improve and you British can stop pretending that you do not belong into a group with other Europeans.

[Gilrandir]

That Britain is not part of mainland Europe is a geographical fact, whether the Romans were able to conquer some people or not is hardly a proper way to define a geographical area or the common culture of people 1500 years or more after the fact.
And it was PVC who said he has nothing in common with the Greeks, the Spaniards and the Italians, all of whom were ironically all part of the roman empire that you both now say defines some kind of common europeanality.

The point is that Canada needs to improve and you British can stop pretending that you do not belong into a group with other Europeans.

In Ukrainian there are two different notions: part of the world (chastyna svitu) and continent/mainland (materyk). Sometimes they coincide (Australia, Antarctica, Africa), sometimes they don't - America as a part of the world contains two continents (North America and South America), Euroasia as a continent contains two parts of the world (Europe and Asia).
So, Great Britain, Ireland, Sicily, Corsica and other islands are not parts of the continent (of Europe), but they belong to Europe as a part of the world.
Suits everyone?

[HopAlongBunny]

Alberta (where I live) has made a public apology.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle25065978/

This will likely not result in any concrete action/policy; the present sentiment appears to be calls for more studies and commissions.
I appreciate The Alberta governments apology; I hope this administration has the courage and imagination to propose concrete measures toward reconciliation.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That Britain is not part of mainland Europe is a geographical fact, whether the Romans were able to conquer some people or not is hardly a proper way to define a geographical area or the common culture of people 1500 years or more after the fact.
And it was PVC who said he has nothing in common with the Greeks, the Spaniards and the Italians, all of whom were ironically all part of the roman empire that you both now say defines some kind of common europeanality.

The point is that Canada needs to improve and you British can stop pretending that you do not belong into a group with other Europeans.

Actually, it's not a geographical fact unless you also accept that parts of Denmak and the Netherlands are also not part of Europe. the British Isles are part of the European landmass and occupy the same tectonic plate, it's just that the last ice age wiped out the land bridge.


Nothing in common with Greeks and Italians?

No - just that I can't be lumped in with them. Also, you clearly missed out all the countries I didn't mention - France, the Netherlands (English have a lot in common with the Dutch), Belgium, Scandinavia...

GERMANY.

So you allowed your prejudice to dictate how you read my post - because you think I'm Greyblades even though I'm regularly seen to slap Greyblades about.

As to SPQR membership not being a way to define a common culture...

I don't even know what to say, except, dafuq?

SPQR IS the definition of European culture, all our institutions are modelled on Roman ones, this is even true in the UK where Roman authority and society largely collapsed after the legions left. Even so, we here value concepts like Republicanism and due process of law, (Roman) letters and our universities were developed from the original Roman concept of a "liberal" eduction.

Even our version of Christianity was Roman.

Now, lets be clear. It is the fault of the Germans barbarians that the WRE fell, if it weren't for your ancestors we would all have jet packs by now and Rome's Legions would be off conquering other planets!

[Greyblades]

I protest! The slapping is a more occasional event, there's nothing regular about it.

[Papewaio]

I protest! The slapping is a more occasional event, there's nothing regular about it.

Oh it's more then just occasional... It's latex, PVC and fifty shades of Greyblades

[Husar]

Nothing in common with Greeks and Italians?

No - just that I can't be lumped in with them. Also, you clearly missed out all the countries I didn't mention - France, the Netherlands (English have a lot in common with the Dutch), Belgium, Scandinavia...

GERMANY.

So you allowed your prejudice to dictate how you read my post - because you think I'm Greyblades even though I'm regularly seen to slap Greyblades about.

There are only few British people such as Beskar about whom I do not have the prejudice that they believe in British exceptionalism.
And I will keep and nurture that prejudice until you can be lumped in with the greeks.

As to SPQR membership not being a way to define a common culture...

I don't even know what to say, except, dafuq?

I never said that, so yeah, dafuq?

SPQR IS the definition of European culture, all our institutions are modelled on Roman ones, this is even true in the UK where Roman authority and society largely collapsed after the legions left. Even so, we here value concepts like Republicanism and due process of law, (Roman) letters and our universities were developed from the original Roman concept of a "liberal" eduction.

Even our version of Christianity was Roman.

It certainly had a great influence but so did germanic and other (e.g. celtic) tribal cultures which were simply mixed with the SPQR culture in most places. And yes, we kept quite a few ideas of the romans around for too long even.

Now, lets be clear. It is the fault of the Germans barbarians that the WRE fell, if it weren't for your ancestors we would all have jet packs by now and Rome's Legions would be off conquering other planets!

Hardly. our modern republicanism is often more like a hidden oligarchy, the romans had a monarch instead of a proper republic most of the time, their science and teaching stuff was mostly stolen from the greeks anyway (the ones you don't want to be lumped in with) and is super outdated by now but was obviously flawed enough to stop itself from modernizing. Science and inventions didn't really stop after the collapse of the roman empire either and the Byzantines as the heirs of rome didn't make it to the moon, they couldn't even manage to defend their heavily fortified capital just like Rome didn't even manage to withstand some rabble. The theory of evolution tells us that the empire simply wasn't fit enough for this world and had to go.
As a great inventor once said:

[...] Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It is Life's change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

There are only few British people such as Beskar about whom I do not have the prejudice that they believe in British exceptionalism.
And I will keep and nurture that prejudice until you can be lumped in with the greeks.

Ah, but Beskar doesn't believe in identity - he doesn't believe in being British and therefore you can't use him as an example of anything the British believe.

Your underlying belief in German exceptionalism might be interesting to discuss, though, or Kad's belief in Swedish exceptionalism, or Brenus' belief in French exceptionalism.

I never said that, so yeah, dafuq?

Oh yes you did - you said that Rome was not a good yardstick for Europe but "Europe" today is the area where Roman Christianity, East and West, survived. We consider North Africa to be separate from our "European" identity because it went Islamic and became "un Roman".

It certainly had a great influence but so did germanic and other (e.g. celtic) tribal cultures which were simply mixed with the SPQR culture in most places. And yes, we kept quite a few ideas of the romans around for too long even.

I challenge you to find germanic influences in modern Italy or Celtic influences in modern Greece - you won't. What you will find are Roman influences in modern Belgium and France, and also in Wales and Brittany.

Rome is the common thread - that's why it's the "Treaty of Rome" and not the "Treaty of Paris".

What, you thought it was an accident that the modern EU was signed into being, embryonically, in the Eternal City?

Hardly. our modern republicanism is often more like a hidden oligarchy, the romans had a monarch instead of a proper republic most of the time, their science and teaching stuff was mostly stolen from the greeks anyway (the ones you don't want to be lumped in with) and is super outdated by now but was obviously flawed enough to stop itself from modernizing. Science and inventions didn't really stop after the collapse of the roman empire either and the Byzantines as the heirs of rome didn't make it to the moon, they couldn't even manage to defend their heavily fortified capital just like Rome didn't even manage to withstand some rabble. The theory of evolution tells us that the empire simply wasn't fit enough for this world and had to go.

Roman Republicanism was a form of hidden oligarchy in just the same way, Hence the Res Publica was SPQR and nor PR. Britain has also had a monarch for most of its history, yet has also historically tended towards what was an oligarchic form of Republicanism - punctuated by period of autocracy.

Britain is, of course, the other great influence on modern democratic thought aside from Rome.

As to applying the theory of evolution governments and nations, isn't that a cornerstone of Nazi ideology? I'm pairly sure it is, the argument that the best government is the one best able to overcome its enemies. Clearly, Germany needs to change its education system.

[Kadagar_AV]

Your underlying belief in German exceptionalism might be interesting to discuss, though, or Kad's belief in Swedish exceptionalism, or Brenus' belief in French exceptionalism.

DUDE!!

I generally think well of you, but that was just sad..

Whenever have I been a Swedish exceptionalist?

I mean, I have lived most of my adult life in Austria, I have dual citizenship... I think Austria is on the right track and I think Sweden is on the wrong track.

I have never, like ever, said a word about Swedes being superior.

BETTER at some issues, sure. But generally saying I believe in Swedish exceptionalism? Puh-Leeze...

What's wrong with ya mate? Bad day?

[Gilrandir]

if it weren't for your ancestors we would all have jet packs by now and Rome's Legions would be off conquering other planets!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_High_Crusade

[Sir Moody]

Now, lets be clear. It is the fault of the Germans barbarians that the WRE fell, if it weren't for your ancestors we would all have jet packs by now and Rome's Legions would be off conquering other planets!

As a Total war gamer you should be ashamed of yourself!

While the Germanic tribes hammered the last nail into WRE's coffin, Rome had been in decline for over a century and had almost torn itself apart several times - they were doomed mostly due to their own politics and if the Germanic Tribes had not raided Rome someone else would have.

I would also argue while the SPQR had a big effect on our culture, Christianity had a much bigger effect and it is a shared religion that ties us culturally together with the Germans and the rest of "Europe".

The theory of evolution tells us that the empire simply wasn't fit enough for this world and had to go.

Eh, while I agree with the gist of your sentiment, the Theory of evolution is a biological process and has no place describing political situations - Romes fall had nothing to do with evolution - instead it was a series of political mistakes.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

As a Total war gamer you should be ashamed of yourself!

While the Germanic tribes hammered the last nail into WRE's coffin, Rome had been in decline for over a century and had almost torn itself apart several times - they were doomed mostly due to their own politics and if the Germanic Tribes had not raided Rome someone else would have.

I suppose it depends on your perspective, you can look at Rome as perpetually falling, or you can see it as virtually indestructible - what with the formation of the Empire, the year of the Five Emperors, the Crisis of the Third Century, the fall of the ERE, the Sassanids Wars, the Rise of Islam, the Turks, the Fourth Crusade...

This society survived for two thousand years, even though the centre eventually migrated from Rome to Constantinople that's still extraordinary. Then, on top of that, when the political structure collapsed then the West the society didn't. Despite waves of invasions and immigration the only province of the WRE where people do not speak Vulgar Latin today are Britannia where society actually DID collapse and Illyria.

I would also argue while the SPQR had a big effect on our culture, Christianity had a much bigger effect and it is a shared religion that ties us culturally together with the Germans and the rest of "Europe".

Well, the form of Christianity that survived was the form officially sponsored by the Emperor, and that Christianity was a vehicle for Roman ideas and even Roman technology, so I'm not sure they can be separated.

[Gilrandir]

Despite waves of invasions and immigration the only province of the WRE where people do not speak Vulgar Latin today are Britannia where society actually DID collapse and Illyria.

What about Pannonia, Transalpine Gaul and African coast provinces?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What about Pannonia, Transalpine Gaul and African coast provinces?

I forgot to qualify with "not conquered by Muslims" which is why they speak Arabic rather than Vandal Latin in Africa now, and I said Illyria, by which I meant the greater region including Pannonia.

Sorry.