After years of pain and humiliation Greece may exit Euro AND EU... PVC says...

[Sir Moody]

These bn euros have been given more than once yet the economy is still where it was. How can you be sure the new bns would do it this time?

Those payments were to balance the books not to fund the economy - Samatian is essentially suggesting the EU should cut out the Greek government and fund some big projects directly to try and kickstart the economy.

[Fragony]

Those payments were to balance the books not to fund the economy .

Ya, it's a covert baillout at the expense of the Greek economy and the Greece people, it's not right to do this. Many things go wrong there but at least have some pity for those who's fault it isn't. Wrong investments, gob them up yourself, there is always a risk.

adition, why the que force a country to make the retirement age higher when there is a huge youth-unemployment? Is that stupid or is it stupid, pick one. And can't take all their means and expect them to recover. It's so... whatever. I don't want Greece to leave the EU mind you, I want the Netherlands to, most of us do.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So - now the Americans are taking notice: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/201...seid=auto&_r=2

"Suppose you consider Tsipras an incompetent twerp. Suppose you dearly want to see Syriza out of power. Suppose, even, that you welcome the prospect of pushing those annoying Greeks out of the euro.
Even if all of that is true, this Eurogroup list of demands is madness. The trending hashtag ThisIsACoup is exactly right. This goes beyond harsh into pure vindictiveness, complete destruction of national sovereignty, and no hope of relief. It is, presumably, meant to be an offer Greece can’t accept; but even so, it’s a grotesque betrayal of everything the European project was supposed to stand for."

[rory_20_uk]

Yadition, why the que force a country to make the retirement age higher when there is a huge youth-unemployment? Is that stupid or is it stupid, pick one. And can't take all their means and expect them to recover. It's so... whatever. I don't want Greece to leave the EU mind you, I want the Netherlands to, most of us do.

There are not a finite number of jobs, nor are there that many jobs only Greeks can do. So, increasing retirement age reduces state costs and does not block jobs that would then automatically fall to the young. The reason there are no jobs is their appalling infrastructure, sclerotic job market and lack of industries that create anything.

[Crandar]

So, an agreement was signed, which is inevitably and unsurprisingly much worse (for Greece) than the revious ones. Well, Greece and her government got what they deserved. Apparently, the Nazi Germans did not succumb to the stratagems of Leonidas and his South Movement.
I wonder how the sheeple that cheered at the night of the referendum will react now that their "leftist" leader abandoned them.

[rory_20_uk]

In many cases they are being forced to do what they were requested to do 5 years ago and have spent the last few months undoing.

Debts eventually have to be paid or written off which has its own penalties. Unless they thought retiring at 55 in a country that makes practically nothing, has no IP and frankly no way to pay its way the people were at best wilfully in denial.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So, an agreement was signed, which is inevitably and unsurprisingly much worse (for Greece) than the revious ones. Well, Greece and her government got what they deserved. Apparently, the Nazi Germans did not succumb to the stratagems of Leonidas and his South Movement.
I wonder how the sheeple that cheered at the night of the referendum will react now that their "leftist" leader abandoned them.

The Greek economy is collapsing and the country is in danger of joining the Third World. No people deserve that, certainly not for irresponsible fiscal policy.

The way people talk about the Greeks you'd think they all bathed in the blood of Arian children.

In many cases they are being forced to do what they were requested to do 5 years ago and have spent the last few months undoing.

Debts eventually have to be paid or written off which has its own penalties. Unless they thought retiring at 55 in a country that makes practically nothing, has no IP and frankly no way to pay its way the people were at best wilfully in denial.

Greece has already made considerable cuts, and all that has happened is the economy has shrunk faster than the debt. Tax rises will simply produce more tax evasion, especially in a climate where people have almost no money to begin with. The worst part is the forced sell off of profitable assets that will further beggar the Greek state.

At least now we know the Germans are finally over World War II because their politicians are back to being merciless and inhumane (not a Nazi reference, btw).

[Brandy Blue]

The way people talk about the Greeks you'd think they all bathed in the blood of Arian children.

I don’t think you understand the gravity of the situation. If the Greeks were guilty of no more than bathing in the blood of Arian children, it would be easy to deal with. The European Court would fine them for discrimination, the Greeks wouldn’t pay but would promise to bathe in the blood of children of all ethnic groups in proportion to their population within the EU, and everyone would turn a blind eye when the Greek government fiddled the numbers to make it look like they’d kept their promise. After all, you can’t combine 503 million people from 28 countries and no one knows how many ethnic groups without turning a blind eye to a certain amount of weirdness. Besides, bathing in the blood of children is just as cultural as the French habit of making unhygienic cheese just because it tastes better.
However, the Greeks are guilty of something much worse. They have repeatedly and perniciously been poor in a way that shows up the short comings of how the EU and the Euro have been implemented. It's amazing how much suffering they've inflicted on themselves and others out of sheer mulish obstinacy.

They have compounded this crime by electing and being deceived by bad leaders, an action which every democracy has performed, but which suddenly becomes criminal as soon as it's convenient to tell the electorate that they got the leadership they deserved because they aren’t all experts on politics and economics.
That said, I wouldn’t be surprised if Greece does get expelled, at least from the Euro zone, maybe from the EU. So we might as well blame them so no one will have to feel bad about it.

At least now we know the Germans are finally over World War II because their politicians are back to being merciless and inhumane (not a Nazi reference, btw).

Bit rough on the Germans, or is this a joke I was too humorless to get?

[Crandar]

The Greek economy is collapsing and the country is in danger of joining the Third World. No people deserve that, certainly not for irresponsible fiscal policy.

The way people talk about the Greeks you'd think they all bathed in the blood of Arian children.

Well, they deserve it, if they have been short-sightedly focusing their economy on how to get as much money as possible from the EU, inspite of being instructed to the contrary, and when that farce eventually stopped, they chose to elect a couple of opportunistic politicians, whose promises every Greek knew they were contradictory (euro without austerity).

Well, you reap what you sow and I hope that this small adventure will teach the Greeks that they are not God's chosen people. But mentioning Fallmerayer is still a tabboo over there...

[Kagemusha]

The Greek economy is collapsing and the country is in danger of joining the Third World. No people deserve that, certainly not for irresponsible fiscal policy.

The way people talk about the Greeks you'd think they all bathed in the blood of Arian children.

What on earth are you talking about?

Greece has already made considerable cuts, and all that has happened is the economy has shrunk faster than the debt. Tax rises will simply produce more tax evasion, especially in a climate where people have almost no money to begin with. The worst part is the forced sell off of profitable assets that will further beggar the Greek state.

At least now we know the Germans are finally over World War II because their politicians are back to being merciless and inhumane (not a Nazi reference, btw).

Have you heard of the saying: " Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach man to fish and feed him for a life time" ?

What the offered package essentially does, is that it puts Greek economy under the supervision of the other EMU countries, whom actually have been able to take care better of their economies.

The package does not mean robbing Greece, but giving endless amount of bailouts would mean robbing both Greece and the rest of the EMU countries tax payers.

I also do not understand how many portray the possible default and Grexit. Look at Iceland. After their default they are now better off and their economy is enhancing. There is no point hanging into Euro, if the currency is not suited for Greece, but if they decide to hold unto it no matter what cost, then i dont see any other option then EU taking control of their economy and turning their economy into more suited of Euro. Which is essentially victory for more pro Federalist elements of EU.

If Greece wants to become vassal of EU then they should take the package. If not, they should Grexit. Life goes on, no matter what they do, unlike what the market wants everybody to believe.

[Kagemusha]

So, an agreement was signed, which is inevitably and unsurprisingly much worse (for Greece) than the revious ones. Well, Greece and her government got what they deserved. Apparently, the Nazi Germans did not succumb to the stratagems of Leonidas and his South Movement.
I wonder how the sheeple that cheered at the night of the referendum will react now that their "leftist" leader abandoned them.

The Germans, Benelux countries, Austrians and Finnish were pushing for Grexit right until the end of last night. Greece can thank France, Italy and Spain for even these more harsh terms being offered.

I sincerely hope that the Greek parliament will not accept the terms of EU. It would be better in the long run for both EMU and Greece if Greece would see themselves out from Euro and leave the door open for those whose economy is not suited for a strong currency while they make their exit.

[Brenus]

So, Tsipras can now go back to Greece and ell them: Do you want to stay in this Europe? Will you accept this diktat? And if he does, how much will welcome all others solutions than the European one?
And this is the end of the EU. Submit or die...
The worst is I voted for EU... Long ago, before money took over... I had the dream... Well, the reality is I helped to built the power that is oppressing us now... A little bit like my communist grand-father after Budapest. I know now how he felt...

[Pannonian]

So, Tsipras can now go back to Greece and ell them: Do you want to stay in this Europe? Will you accept this diktat? And if he does, how much will welcome all others solutions than the European one?
And this is the end of the EU. Submit or die...
The worst is I voted for EU... Long ago, before money took over... I had the dream... Well, the reality is I helped to built the power that is oppressing us now... A little bit like my communist grand-father after Budapest. I know now how he felt...

Maybe you should follow the British view that the EU is better off as a common market, an economic bloc when dealing with the outside world, and a people united in their belief in liberal democracy, and not push for anything more than that.