Another terrible race motivated attack.

[a completely inoffensive name]

White man (21 yr old) wearing the flags of Rhodesia and South Africa on his clothing, killed nine in a black church in South Carolina, including the pastor. Specifically said before murdering the victims, "I want to kill black people", and that "black people are running the country".

Charleston shooting suspect Dylann Roof 'wanted to ignite civil war'

http://gu.com/p/4avk6

Watching the Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore, and guests are in agreement that the confederate flag needs to be removed from the capitol and for streets to be renamed something other than the names of confederate generals. To this I say let's go full steam ahead and restart radical reconstruction and eradicate this element of southern culture.

[Fragony]

Removing flags and changing the of streets is stupid, confederates fought for many reasons. Glad they caught the guy.

[a completely inoffensive name]

confederates fought for many reasons.

That's a myth the South promotes.

[Montmorency]

Interesting, his age.

[Montmorency]

I do have to admit I don't understand the gun control angle. Assuming the gun used was the pistol the shooter's father gave him as a birthday present a few months ago, then it's really unclear to me what sort of targeted gun-control policy could even be relevant.

[Papewaio]

Well any policy might be good.

Like puppies and pistols don't make good presents.

[Greyblades]

Watching the Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore, and guests are in agreement that the confederate flag needs to be removed from the capitol and for streets to be renamed something other than the names of confederate generals. To this I say let's go full steam ahead and restart radical reconstruction and eradicate this element of southern culture.

You're an idiot if you think outright cultural suppression will in any way make things better.

[Strike For The South]

Let me preface this by saying I am a staunch federal man. Something about an all powerful federal government just makes me all warm and fuzzy.

Many Americans do not understand the Civil War. Unfortunately, to truly understand America, you have to understand the civil war. Some of this misunderstanding comes from the way the war is simplistically taught in schools, some comes from the fact that what is now probably a majority of Americans families were not even here when the war happened, some comes from the simple maxim that people do not really care, I will try not to dwell too much on that point.

Mind you, this is all a generalization and I wish I had more time.

The Antebellum south was a vestige of a forgotten time. In keeping with the spirit of the place, the south was averse to anything even hinting at modernity, preferring to move at their own languorous pace. It is not unfair to say the last feudal society in the west died at Appomattox court house. The North by contrast, had begun a full industrialization akin to Western Europe. Fueled by Northern Coal, navigable rivers, and a steady stream of immigrants the north was very much modern.

The souths power, which had always been disproportionate, began to wane at a very quick rate. The whole free soil debacle is for another time. Suffice to say, the south saw itself boxed in. The Federal government was caught between two economic systems and chose the north (internal improvements and tariffs) over the south (ag loans and export focused). To say the war is simply about the moral pox that was (and I suppose is) slavery is a gross oversimplification that lets half the country off the hook for the shameful way it has treated Black Americans for all but about 10% of its history.

Schools never go into the tariff or freight charges. They never talk about the lynching of free blacks in Pittsburgh or the murder of abolitionists in Boston. In the north it is about slavery and in the south it is about some kind of nebulous "way of life". This is because nuance is hard, time is short, and most educators do not understand the war themselves.

Most peoples families were not even here at the time of war, immigrating at a later point. This is not a bad thing (immigration is an integral part of Americana) it is only to illustrate the fact that there is no personal connection for these people. I think that counts for something, however tenuous.

The south lost 1/3 of its men and did not recover until after WWII. The recovery was spearheaded by internal (north-south) migration and later immigration from Latin America. The side that wants to take away the confederate flag is talking past the people who want to keep it. They do not understand it.

[Veho Nex]

[Ironside]

The souths power, which had always been disproportionate, began to wane at a very quick rate. The whole free soil debacle is for another time. Suffice to say, the south saw itself boxed in. The Federal government was caught between two economic systems and chose the north (internal improvements and tariffs) over the south (ag loans and export focused). To say the war is simply about the moral pox that was (and I suppose is) slavery is a gross oversimplification that lets half the country off the hook for the shameful way it has treated Black Americans for all but about 10% of its history.

Schools never go into the tariff or freight charges. They never talk about the lynching of free blacks in Pittsburgh or the murder of abolitionists in Boston. In the north it is about slavery and in the south it is about some kind of nebulous "way of life". This is because nuance is hard, time is short, and most educators do not understand the war themselves.

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth..."

“Corner Stone” Speech
Alexander H. Stephens, Vice President of the Confederate States of America
Savannah, Georgia
March 21, 1861

"(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed." From the Confederate constitution.

Slavery was the issue the Confederacy decided to fight over. Why they chose this has economic reasons, but the choice was all about keeping slavery, rather than reforming the economy.

Edit: And that picture... Racism, bias and some points worth discussing but are quite hard to separate factors.

Statement: Institutional racism in the US forces the black population into a perpetual underclass with poverty and crime as a consequence.
Proof: That picture.

Truth: Insufficient data. It proves that blacks are generally an underclass (shocking I know). And that there's social factors doing at least some of this (one set of data shows that by 100%) Gives no data on why and what social factors. White seems to be a vague concept though. It's 63,7%, no 72%.

Topic wise, I'm not sure. Data used as propaganda leads to hate crimes down the road?

[Husar]

Let me continue Veho's great picture:

FACT: Whites genocided 95% of the original Americans.

FACT: 95% of the blacks (or their ancestors) didn't come to america voluntarily.

FACT: Talk about HIV all you want, god found other ways to kill white people: http://www.cdc.gov/cancer/skin/statistics/race.htm


SOURCES:

- Your mom

- my nose

- my butt

- the streets

- center of misleading statistics

[Beskar]

I like how the statistics show black people are 'bad' because they are poor and starving in ghettos, how dare they rely on food stamps! Should take it a step further and suggest they should starve to death instead of the pittance poor week.

Not like actually providing better welfare support will significantly lower crime-rates or removing what is there wouldn't cause significant higher rate of crime..

[a completely inoffensive name]

So you are telling me that when you have institutions that destabilize the ability of a community to establish nuclear families, you get poverty, violence and welfare?

I could have sworn Rhy made a post describing aspects of UK society destabilizing because of the deterioration of families. I need to find it so I can respond to these "statistical" arguments.

[Ironside]

In case you wonder what I mean about propaganda.

Reading that info like you normally would (so no through reading), would you say that a black murderer are?:
a) Vastly more likely to murder a white person than a black person.
b) More likely to murder a white person than a black person.
c) About the same.
d) less likely to murder a white person than a black person.
e) Vastly less likely to murder a white person than a black person.

[Tuuvi]

picture

Do you sympathize with the killer Veho Nex?

[Kadagar_AV]

Edit: And that picture... Racism, bias and some points worth discussing but are quite hard to separate factors.

Statement: Institutional racism in the US forces the black population into a perpetual underclass with poverty and crime as a consequence.
Proof: That picture.

Truth: Insufficient data. It proves that blacks are generally an underclass (shocking I know)

Yes, blacks are the underclass in societies that mix white/black or asian/black or wherever blacks go that isn't Africa.

You CAN argue that it is because of institutional racism, as you argue.

You CAN also argue that blacks culturally and/or genetically are subpar, and that's why they generally end up in the lower end of most scales measured by the western society.

I like how the statistics show black people are 'bad' because they are poor and starving in ghettos, how dare they rely on food stamps! Should take it a step further and suggest they should starve to death instead of the pittance poor week.

Not like actually providing better welfare support will significantly lower crime-rates or removing what is there wouldn't cause significant higher rate of crime..

Why are they poor? Why are they living in ghettos?

Is it because everyone hate blacks, or is it because blacks just doesn't seem to be able to show their worth?

Look at asians that join western societies... They can come from totally devastated backgrounds, and they still not only function, but generally prosper in white societies.




So yeah, there are two ways of looking at this issue...

One way is to say that blacks don't do to well is because of RACISM...

Another way is to say that blacks are treated as they should be in a free market economy...

And yet another way is saying blacks probably should get their testosterone in check and work on their social ethics.

Furthermore we have the perspective of "let blacks be blacks, and let ME live MY life without them troubling me or my children".



This is ALL very generally speaking, of course.

[Graphic]

You CAN also argue that blacks culturally and/or genetically are subpar, and that's why they generally end up in the lower end of most scales measured by the western society.

Are you still pretending you're not a white supremacist?

[Husar]

Another way is to say that blacks are treated as they should be in a free market economy...

Hitler said the same thing about the jews.

[Veho Nex]

@Tuuvi No, but I lived in Oakland where in my neighborhood 4 murders occurred in 1 year, less than 1 block from where I lived. Not a single one was perpetrated by a white person and 3 of 4 were black on black and 1 was black on Asian. It was not a predominately black neighborhood being mostly Asian (Chinese, Korean, and Indian). I believe there is something seriously wrong with race relations in this country, especially when the media only focuses on white on black violence. No one seems to give a damn if its black on black or black on other minority but the second white on black comes out it's suddenly #blacklivesmatter.

The whole perception of "woe is me and my fellow racial herd we are down trodden and left without a hope in the world" needs to end. There are 2nd and 3rd generation Hispanics that live in ghettos and still work their asses off to get ahead where we have 4th, 5th, or 6th generation blacks that believe shit needs to be handed to them. There are plenty of whites who think the same thing. It's the Govt that perpetuates the hate when your avg hard working American gets the brown end of the stick just so these bums can leach off the system. I see help wanted signs all over and I work 2 jobs myself, why do these people (black, white, or otherwise) feel they need food stamps, financial assistance, or whatever to make a living.

I don't really care about black on white crime as any racial vs white crime is going to be skewed because we are majority of population. There is obviously a large portion of Americans who will look at those stats and wonder why we even allow them to continue in our country. There are white ghettos just as there are black but we don't see the same crime statistics. This whole situation is sad but everyone is focusing on the wrong side of the argument. The guy was tired of what he saw and he hated them enough to throw his life away for it.

@Husar, R.O.C. man. Who cares where the people came from. Whites conquered the world and really I don't feel the need to say sorry for something someone else's ancestors did 300(0) years ago. They did what they had the capability to do, expand, kill and make room to grow so they could expand and kill more. No other nation or race of people would have done it any differently. And I say someone else's because with my Irish and Finnish heritage I doubt my family were slave owners or assisted in the slave trade in the late 1890s when they came to America or my Scot heritage when they came here in the Early 1900s.

[Kadagar_AV]

Hitler said the same thing about the jews.

Source?

Hitler has said a lot of things about jews, but it would be news to me that he said that they did to poor in a market economy?

Wasn't it more about them acting like vultures in the market economy for their own gains instead of working for the best of the nation at large?

[Kadagar_AV]

Are you still pretending you're not a white supremacist?

I'm a factualist...

If I was a white supremacist, I wouldn't conclude that asians are smarter than whites, or that blacks run faster than whites...

I just look at the scoreboard mate...

And on that scoreboard, blacks don't do to well in western societies. Heck, blacks don't even do that well in their own societies or even nations.

Am I wrong?

[Husar]

Source?

Hitler has said a lot of things about jews, but it would be news to me that he said that they did to poor in a market economy?

Wasn't it more about them acting like vultures in the market economy for their own gains instead of working for the best of the nation at large?

That's not what you said, you said they are treated as they should, and he thought/said he was treating the jews as they should be treated or are you going to doubt that as well now?

According to the Ukraine thread that makes you just like Hitler because you use his rhetoric.

[Kadagar_AV]

That's not what you said, you said they are treated as they should, and he thought/said he was treating the jews as they should be treated or are you going to doubt that as well now?

According to the Ukraine thread that makes you just like Hitler because you use his rhetoric.

My point is that blacks might do less well in western societies because of cultural and/or genetical factors.

People at large are less eager to pay someone well or even hire them if they do not hold up to the standards set. It MIGHT be reasonable to argue that blacks just don't do that well in a free market.

I mean, seriously, with the amount of black people we have included, in a free market economy it would mean that, by your logic, the FIRST company that gets on the ball and start using the black labour force would profit like crazy, no?

But yet it never happens?

I say it again...

This CAN be because of structural racism.

This CAN be because blacks are not really worth much in the work market because of cultural/genetical reasons.



I know I am repeating myself, but seriously, why wouldn't a company or two have picked up on the HUGE potential that is the black population? By your reasoning, with blacks being on par with other races, the first company to invest in that workforce would sky rocket...

But yet, 2015, being black is still generally seen as a detrimental factor.


And from what I have experienced in my life, for good reasons.

Don't read me wrong though, I judge every person I meet individually. But in a macro-perspective... I mean, c'mon.. You would have to be blind not to see cultural differences.

[a completely inoffensive name]

You're an idiot if you think outright cultural suppression will in any way make things better.

Denazification worked. Tear down the symbols, root through the institutions down to the town level and systematically remove those in charge with a history of racial discrimination and their immediate subordinates.

[Fragony]

Denazification worked.

After a war that affected almost every German in one way or another. Kinda different from racist attacks that are quite rare.

[Kadagar_AV]

Denazification worked. Tear down the symbols, root through the institutions down to the town level and systematically remove those in charge with a history of racial discrimination and their immediate subordinates.

So... The correct way to handle a democracy is to go mayhem on democratic principles when someone challenge it?

You sound like RVG here, as you can read from my signature.

[a completely inoffensive name]

After a war that affected almost every German in one way or another. Kinda different from racist attacks that are quite rare.

It's not the racist attacks that is the problem, it's the institutional racism that targets black men and dismantles black families. This attack is just the tragic outburst that forces people to admit that there is a race problem.

[Sarmatian]

My point is that blacks might do less well in western societies because of cultural and/or genetical factors.

No.

It's not the racist attacks that is the problem, it's the institutional racism that targets black men and dismantles black families. This attack is just the tragic outburst that forces people to admit that there is a race problem.

This.

When what we call middle class was being formed in the USA, blacks simply weren't allowed to become a part of it. The current plight of blacks is the result of institutional racism that is still happening (to a lesser extent) now in the US.

[Husar]

I know I am repeating myself, but seriously, why wouldn't a company or two have picked up on the HUGE potential that is the black population? By your reasoning, with blacks being on par with other races, the first company to invest in that workforce would sky rocket...

Haha, yes, because companies are eager to solve the economic and educational problems of future employees. Next you are going to tell me that Goldman Sachs looks for poor, badly educated white/asian kids because they know that they have this huge potential from their genes or white/asian culture.

[Ironside]

@<a href="https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=16500" target="_blank">Tuuvi</a> No, but I lived in Oakland where in my neighborhood 4 murders occurred in 1 year, less than 1 block from where I lived. Not a single one was perpetrated by a white person and 3 of 4 were black on black and 1 was black on Asian. It was not a predominately black neighborhood being mostly Asian (Chinese, Korean, and Indian). I believe there is something seriously wrong with race relations in this country, especially when the media only focuses on white on black violence. No one seems to give a damn if its black on black or black on other minority but the second white on black comes out it's suddenly #blacklivesmatter.

? The normal reaction when they play it up is black on white crimes. Your nice picture does it for example. Blacks are vastly less likely (factor 5x) to target a white guy for murder, than what would happen if they target people randomly. That data skewing is entirely due to black being a minority. Having a 10% minority, with the same crime rate as the other 90% would be 100 times more likely to commit a crime at majority than the majority committing a crime vs the minority. In this case, it's 20%=25 times. Either blacks aren't committing more assaults than whites or that increase are as large a the decrease to assault over the race barrier.

The big white on black cases has been about overly gun happy police that happens disproportionally to black people or vigilantes that decides to go after that black dude. Notice something in common?

The whole perception of "woe is me and my fellow racial herd we are down trodden and left without a hope in the world" needs to end. There are 2nd and 3rd generation Hispanics that live in ghettos and still work their asses off to get ahead where we have 4th, 5th, or 6th generation blacks that believe shit needs to be handed to them. There are plenty of whites who think the same thing. It's the Govt that perpetuates the hate when your avg hard working American gets the brown end of the stick just so these bums can leach off the system. I see help wanted signs all over and I work 2 jobs myself, why do these people (black, white, or otherwise) feel they need food stamps, financial assistance, or whatever to make a living.

I take it you're a regular Fox News viewer?

Short version. People working are common, people working their asses off and are talented in finding all job opportunities are less common. That applies in all social classes, but are more notable among the poor of course. If it simply was that people needs to pull oneself together under the threat of starvation, then we wouldn't had those huge issues in Eastern Europe after communism fell, or Romani beggars from Hungary all over Europe now.
That doesn't work. Well, it sort of do, alternate sources of money and food goes up rapidly, like begging and crime.

And the current situation aren't healthy for those "bums". As our "It's all about genetics" resident Kadagar can tell you, killing your own child is genetically stupid and a significant sign of mental unhealth coming from non-genetic sources. That is a situation they want to get out from, not something they choose to stay in because they're happy or content.

But by focusing on this, you can distract the poor from that they're working poor nowadays. You can still need food stamps while having a full time job.

After a war that affected almost every German in one way or another. Kinda different from racist attacks that are quite rare.

Outright murder is rare. Institutional racism is very common and the denial of it is a notable sign of it. Here's Fox News, presidential candidate nr 1, nr 2 denying that this was a racist crime. It was an (atheist) attack on Christians or even an "accident" caused by taking medicines.

Differential treatment from the police.


It's not necessary starting out as racism, but the police are recommended to search for alternative revenue streams. Police Chief Magazine are a big one in the US. Short version, loot money from the population (some suggestions are actually decent).
Anybody with half a brain are going to figure out that you can't do that policy on people with influence. So you'll target people whose complaints won't be heard. And in the US, you only need to watch the skin colour to find a decent marker.
That's for example the boiling pot in Ferguson.
"This practice explains why Ferguson Municipal Court issued 24,532 warrants and heard 12,018 cases in 2013. That averages out to 1.5 cases and three warrants per every household in Ferguson."