Another terrible race motivated attack.

[a completely inoffensive name]

White man (21 yr old) wearing the flags of Rhodesia and South Africa on his clothing, killed nine in a black church in South Carolina, including the pastor. Specifically said before murdering the victims, "I want to kill black people", and that "black people are running the country".

Charleston shooting suspect Dylann Roof 'wanted to ignite civil war'

http://gu.com/p/4avk6

Watching the Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore, and guests are in agreement that the confederate flag needs to be removed from the capitol and for streets to be renamed something other than the names of confederate generals. To this I say let's go full steam ahead and restart radical reconstruction and eradicate this element of southern culture.

[Fragony]

Removing flags and changing the of streets is stupid, confederates fought for many reasons. Glad they caught the guy.

[a completely inoffensive name]

confederates fought for many reasons.

That's a myth the South promotes.

[Montmorency]

Interesting, his age.

[Montmorency]

I do have to admit I don't understand the gun control angle. Assuming the gun used was the pistol the shooter's father gave him as a birthday present a few months ago, then it's really unclear to me what sort of targeted gun-control policy could even be relevant.

[Papewaio]

Well any policy might be good.

Like puppies and pistols don't make good presents.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Looks like Monty agrees with me. Radical Reconstruction it is.

[Fragony]

Looks like Monty agrees with me. Radical Reconstruction it is.

Or radical denial because what you want doesn't resonate all that well with what is. I haven't checked the numbers but the outcome seems to be a given to you whatever the variables.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Calm down guys, no need to be nasty here. Comparing me to a murderer and calling me a dumbass hurts my feelings.

[Greyblades]

Calm down guys, no need to be nasty here. Comparing me to a murderer and calling me a dumbass hurts my feelings.

Yeah that was going too far. Sorry... though I don't remember comparing you to a murderer.

[a completely inoffensive name]

though I don't remember calling you a murderer.

That was Panzer who did that.

[a completely inoffensive name]

First of all, the point I am making is one I am extrapolating from the views I have read and seen on TV. I wanted to open this thread with that specific point of view to prevent the same old talking points from arising. Second, the point about Denazification is not to eradicate the feelings towards Robert E Lee as a person but to dismantle the post war usage of him and his battle flag as a symbol of segregation and oppression. His name is used no longer as a reminder of brave soldiers doing their duty or as respect for a brilliant general, but as a symbol of the ideological fight to keep white supremacists. Third, the actual policy involves more than just renaming streets but a systematic government audit. And really, this is where I got confused at the responses about suppressing culture because it is about cleaning out the justice system, not about homogenizing the south.

[Husar]

There are actually people who say the flag is a symbol of slavery/segregation for the most part:

http://theweek.com/articles/562004/s...nfederate-flag

Opposition to civil rights legislation, to integration, to miscegenation, to social equality for black people — these are the major plot points that make up the flag's recent history. Not Vietnam. Not opposition to Northern culture or values. Not tourism. Not ObamaCare. Not anything else.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I never knew that about Australia, interesting fact.

[a completely inoffensive name]

This thread was about the treatment of blacks in the US. Why am I not surprised that this simply devolved into another thread for kad to talk about how genetically inferior they are.

[Greyblades]

Pointless southern prejudice aside, your opening post failed to give us a topic of discussion that hasn't been done to death.

Perhaps we wouldn't have gone down the familiar paths of conversation if you had started with something a bit more nuanced that "grr southerners, screw em"

[a completely inoffensive name]

Pointless southern prejudice aside, your opening post failed to give us a topic of discussion that hasn't been done to death.

Perhaps we wouldn't have gone down the familiar paths of conversation if you had started with something a bit more nuanced that "grr southerners, screw em"

I'm getting tired of the constant chip on your shoulder dude. I opened a topic on the removal of the Confederate flag and the extent to which racist symbols and practices should be removed, particularly in the south. This clearly wasn't as tired as you claim since more respectable people in here like strike and Panzer responded in kind with opinions regarding the degree to which we blame southern culture when it comes to institutional practices and public backlash in the aftermath of tragedies. Others like PVC and monty also brought up points about the morality and efficacy of attempts to alter culture as an outsider.

It is not my fault that you cant separate issues as broad as 'race' into multiple questions to tackle individually. Just like you can't seem to shut the **** up about gamergate every time video games are discussed in a serious manner. The only thread where people stay on topic (Ukraine) is by far the most active and largest thread. So yeah, excuse me for being a tad annoyed at seeing another thread once again end in 40 posts between kad and husar or you and husar.

[Greyblades]

I'm getting tired of the constant chip on your shoulder dude. I opened a topic on the removal of the Confederate flag and the extent to which racist symbols and practices should be removed, particularly in the south. This clearly wasn't as tired as you claim since more respectable people in here like strike and Panzer responded in kind with opinions regarding the degree to which we blame southern culture when it comes to institutional practices and public backlash in the aftermath of tragedies. Others like PVC and monty also brought up points about the morality and efficacy of attempts to alter culture as an outsider.

It is not my fault that you cant separate issues as broad as 'race' into multiple questions to tackle individually. Just like you can't seem to shut the **** up about gamergate every time video games are discussed in a serious manner. The only thread where people stay on topic (Ukraine) is by far the most active and largest thread. So yeah, excuse me for being a tad annoyed at seeing another thread once again end in 40 posts between kad and husar or you and husar.

Christ even by my standards you are whiny.

If your long term memory could extend further than six months you'd know that every racial shooting debate turns into this without intervention. There's been plenty of developments you could have steered the conversation with but you have failed to present one, so frankly you've brought this on yourself.

Here's a bone: a bunch of idiots are calling for everything confederate to be removed:

New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu calls for removal of Lee Circle statue.

Group calls for removal of Confederate monument from Lake Eola Park.

‘Gone with the Wind’ should go the way of the Confederate flag.

This whitewashing is even threatening to spill into other centuries:

Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

And sadly its starting to actually influence people outside the hugbox:

Dukes of Hazzard Toy Car Axed Amid Confederate Flag Controversy



You want to keep on topic, talk about the topic instead of pissing and moaning.

No disrespect to Husar BTW, keep fighting the good fight.

Dont forget to work shaft there buddy.

[Greyblades]

Oh and by the way, while you were bitching about the seasonal massacre and subsequent pointless race debate, this was fastracked to the president's desk two days ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-...#United_States

Fortunately it's not my country so I can laugh at your race baited ass with impunity.

[a completely inoffensive name]

No disrespect to Husar BTW, keep fighting the good fight.

[Kadagar_AV]

No disrespect to Husar BTW, keep fighting the good fight.

Sisyphus much?



I would be more interested in an actual discussion...

Whenever I have time I'll come back with a more serious reply :)

[a completely inoffensive name]

The stars and stripes was not created specifically as a symbol of imperialism or cleansing. Say what you will about the atrocities done under the union flag, the stars and bars is a creation born from slavery and was chosen to identify a nation that held the truth about "the inferior nature of negros".

[Strike For The South]

The stars and stripes was not created specifically as a symbol of imperialism or cleansing. Say what you will about the atrocities done under the union flag, the stars and bars is a creation born from slavery and was chosen to identify a nation that held the truth about "the inferior nature of negros".

The stars and bar is the battle flag of the army of Northern Virginia. It is not the flag of the CSA. The stars and stripes was born from slavery as well, those men very much believed in the inferiority of negros, and the men whom oversaw it's creation were the spearhead on a continent wide ethnic cleansing.

For everybody in the US of A.

On the inside, all Europeans are dirty little fascists.

[Sarmatian]

The stars and bar is the battle flag of the army of Northern Virginia. It is not the flag of the CSA. The stars and stripes was born from slavery as well, those men very much believed in the inferiority of negros, and the men whom oversaw it's creation were the spearhead on a continent wide ethnic cleansing.

It all boils to 50 shades of grey - sure, I guess someone will be insulted by a Unicef flag, or feel wronged by someone or something the flag represents, but we can not use that as an excuse.

I don't believe that only racists like that flag, and I do agree there are people who like that flag and hate slavery and racism, but that is not a good enough reason to keep it. I'm sure there are other ways to express love for southern culture.

On the inside, all Europeans are dirty little fascists.

You know I can't resist you when you go full Dixie on me...

I wouldn't go that far.

banning it from being flown at Government buildings is fine and justified - banning Joe public from flying it if they want is a no no

it infringes their rite to be a backwards racist if they want to

I wouldn't care much.

Maybe this is because I grew up where I grew up and experienced it all. Symbols are powerful tools.

[ICantSpellDawg]

The stars and bar is the battle flag of the army of Northern Virginia. It is not the flag of the CSA. The stars and stripes was born from slavery as well, those men very much believed in the inferiority of negros, and the men whom oversaw it's creation were the spearhead on a continent wide ethnic cleansing.

The Saltire cross/battleflag of N. Virginia is not the "stars and bars". You should know this.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I'm not sure how the Stars and Stripes holds up under the same standard. Certainly ethnic cleansing, and arguably all out genocide, is on the same level as slavery or worse. Nothing about the current rush to purge all symbols of the Old South stands up to even basic intellectual scrutiny... It's just reactionary populism.

Nearly every star placed on "Old Glory" got there by the blood of butchered Native Americans, who were systematically stripped of their lands, rights, and dignity; by the blood of exploited railroad & mining workers; by the grief and tears of all those swindled out of their savings by corrupt banks and real estate barons; and by just about every imaginable way that human beings can take advantage of others to fatten their wealth. Don't see anyone calling for its removal from government buildings....

The Rebel flag has come to mean different things for different people since the Civil War. It can certainly connote racial hatred when used by groups like the KKK, etc. My experience has been that the Stars & Bars is simply an expression of personal rebellion. In my college days, one could find the Rebel Flag at student protests, not because we believed in slavery but because we perceived ourselves as rebels fighting against a higher authority. I've also found it to be far more prevalent in rural settings, where folks would really prefer governmental intrusions be kept to a minimum. It's all too easy to point fingers at the stereo-typical tobacco-chewing, gun-toting, whiskey-drinking, truck-driving Southerner, and forget about all the more benign uses of it that have absolutely nothing to do with slavery or racial hatred.

Government buildings are an inappropriate place for it, as are any items, like auto plates, that can be identified as government regulated. But this ridiculous attempt to purge it from monuments, toys, and even video games is not only asinine, but insanely hypocritical when one scrutinizes America's past......

[Strike For The South]

The Saltire cross/battleflag of N. Virginia is not the "stars and bars". You should know this.

When the flag was resurected post war that's what it was tied to. Lees own flag was different but the stars and bars was carried as a part of his army. I didn't realize we were giving out medals for pendantry.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The founding Fathers were more diverse than that. You can find it in the language that many wished to suppress or remove slavery. The constitution gave slavery protection for only twenty years at which point congress banned the import of new slaves as soon as the protection expired. These compromises and the actions of early congress show more nuance than you give them.

[Strike For The South]

The founding Fathers were more diverse than that. You can find it in the language that many wished to suppress or remove slavery. The constitution gave slavery protection for only twenty years at which point congress banned the import of new slaves as soon as the protection expired. These compromises and the actions of early congress show more nuance than you give them.

And the CSA was more diverse than that but it doesn't change the centerpiece for either side.

I don't believe that only racists like that flag, and I do agree there are people who like that flag and hate slavery and racism, but that is not a good enough reason to keep it. I'm sure there are other ways to express love for southern culture.

In theory it can not and does not fly over any government buildings. South Carolina got around that by designating something as a "memorial". I'm all for that, treason should have consequences.

My bigger issue is the deliberate whitewashing of history.

You know I can't resist you when you go full Dixie on me...

:)

[a completely inoffensive name]

And the CSA was more diverse than that but it doesn't change the centerpiece for either side.

Was it? I am willing to hear the case that the CSA was more than an attempt by gentry to preserve regional economics based on slave labor.