A new view of Islam?

[Sarmatian]

If the book is anything like its summary, it's pure bollox.

[Crandar]

I'm looking forward to it, it looks really hilarious.

"Iranians didn't revolt, due to the evilness of SAVAK (after all, Iranians always specialized in torturing, said the open-minded author), because the revolutionary chiefs were baddies, too!".

Nursery school logic.

[Fragony]

Same mistake all over, Islam is not the same thing as just being muslim.

[Husar]

Such projects also reflect an ignorance of the incompatibility of the tribal mentality with the canons of liberal democracy. Despite the support of the Europeans after World War I in creating nations with constitutional governments, the Arabs “have resorted more and more to their basic social and religious institutions, the tribe and Islam, to provide the structure of government. Any progress towards political maturity has been stultified by their inability to comprehend any loyalty other than that to family, tribe or religious sect. Loyalty to the nation or to the constitution is a concept devoid of meaning for them.”

It's racist.

[Greyblades]

Number 45 on my new book 'how the misuse of the term racism has resulted in none knowing what it actually is anymore'

I'm looking forward to it, it looks really hilarious.

"Iranians didn't revolt, due to the evilness of SAVAK (after all, Iranians always specialized in torturing, said the open-minded author), because the revolutionary chiefs were baddies, too!".

Nursery school logic.

Are we reading the same article? He's clearly saying the iranians revolted against the savak and not the mullahs because savak was much worse at suppressing dissent.

[Husar]

Number 45 on my new book 'how the misuse of the term racism has resulted in none knowing what it actually is anymore'

That's what Hitler said before he murdered everyone.

[Greyblades]

[Kadagar_AV]

That's what Hitler said before he murdered everyone.

Not that your posts always are brilliant, but this was a new low.

[Brenus]

"Muslims have never lived under Constitutional governments or according to secular laws, everything HAS been filtered through tribe and religion." Err, France has 4 millions "Muslims" (which makes France the most Muslim populated country in Europe, if you don't count Turkey in Europe)and is a Constitutional government and is secular. And "Muslims" live there and don't mass emigrate. In fact, there are more "Muslims" fleeing the "Muslim" states than Muslims going to ISIS. Apparently thousands of them can't wait to come in Evil Western Countries and live a happy life without compulsory religious rules. The Muslim atheists are happy to be protected from genocidal killers by secular laws.

[Crandar]

"Iranians have a distinct talent for devising bizarre methods of punishment"

That's clearly rascist.

Are we reading the same article? He's clearly saying the iranians revolted against the savak and not the mullahs because savak was much worse at suppressing dissent.

it wasn’t the cruelty of the Shah, unexceptional in the region even today, that sparked the revolution, but his ostentatious corruption and, most important, his alienation of the clerical class brought on by his liberalizing and secularizing reforms which were seen as threats to Islam.

"Liberazing" usually means democratic, Kelly, not the introduction of women's bags to Iran. After all, his bias is evident when he compares the peaceful period during which Reza Pahlevi reigned, with the aftermath of the revolution, in parallel with the war status against a state that murdered PoWs, used chemical gas and genocidal methods.
He avoids to inform the reader though, that all the unexceptionally cruel SAVAK leaders available were rightfully executed by the revolutionaries...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"Iranians have a distinct talent for devising bizarre methods of punishment"

That's clearly rascist.

"The Romans had a distinct talent for devising bizarre methods of punishment"

Or for a more modern example

"The Germans have a distinct talent for managing and organising large construction projects"

Another -

"Anywhere in the world where there are people trying to dig things out of the ground you will find a Cornishman with a pasty"

The last from a Cornish miner.

Face it - torture is an art form, and the Iranians have been known for millennia as refined practitioners - remember how the Parthians killed Crassus by pouring liquid gold down his throat? They did that to be ironic.

You only think it's racist because you perceive torture as a negative thing - again - this is a cultural norm, it's far from universally accepted.

I don't agree with everything in that review by a long stretch but I agree with the core point - we were wrong to assume that Western democracy was a natural state that all peoples would "progress" towards.

[Crandar]

If an uprising is a truly popular revolution, the regime will succumb to the revolutionaries, as long as no foreign power intervenes in favour of preserving the status quo. The majority of the army will defect and the few loyalist remnants will not be able to resist against the masses.
Consequently, the morally right option is never to intervene in cases of revolution, since your power will disrupt the procedure and inevitably disorientate the revolutionaries. After all, let's be realistic, the foreign states only care about the protection or enforcement of their own interests, not about any humanitarian principles.

"The Romans had a distinct talent for devising bizarre methods of punishment"

Or for a more modern example

"The Germans have a distinct talent for managing and organising large construction projects"

Another -

"Anywhere in the world where there are people trying to dig things out of the ground you will find a Cornishman with a pasty"

The last from a Cornish miner.

Face it - torture is an art form, and the Iranians have been known for millennia as refined practitioners - remember how the Parthians killed Crassus by pouring liquid gold down his throat? They did that to be ironic.

You only think it's racist because you perceive torture as a negative thing - again - this is a cultural norm, it's far from universally accepted.

I don't agree with everything in that review by a long stretch but I agree with the core point - we were wrong to assume that Western democracy was a natural state that all peoples would "progress" towards.

All your examples attribute certain characteristics to a group of people, based on their racial status, which is not only stupid, but also racist.
Efficiency at different actions, like torturing or management, concerns either specific personalities or political institutions, not people, so the author could have supported his argument only by mentioning how all the people who were opponents of the Shah were also interested in torturing, before the Shah was deposed. Of course, such a task was impossible, so he was forced to make an incoherent reference to the Iranian past.

By the way, Crassus was already dead, when gold was poured to his mouth, so that action shows disrespect for the dead, not a tendency to torture. A better exaple would be how Darius II got rid of Sogianus.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's racist.

Prejudicial, possibly, racist, no.

Muslims have never lived under Constitutional governments or according to secular laws, everything HAS been filtered through tribe and religion.

To believe your norms are normative, that because you cleave to something everyone else naturally will, is much closer to racism than that book

[Husar]

Prejudicial, possibly, racist, no.

Well, it depends on how you read it. The sentence "Any progress towards political maturity has been stultified by their inability to comprehend any loyalty other than that to family, tribe or religious sect." can easily sound as though he is saying that the arab is inherently too stupid to understand modern civilized concepts of the West. And thinking that an entire group of people is inherently inferior to your own group of people, what is that called again?

[InsaneApache]

Well, it depends on how you read it. The sentence "Any progress towards political maturity has been stultified by their inability to comprehend any loyalty other than that to family, tribe or religious sect." can easily sound as though he is saying that the arab is inherently too stupid to understand modern civilized concepts of the West. And thinking that an entire group of people is inherently inferior to your own group of people, what is that called again?

I don't think he means that the Arabs are stupid, rather it is a cultural thing. I've heard this said before about Arab armed forces and why they are so ineffective.

[Kadagar_AV]

Well, it depends on how you read it. The sentence "Any progress towards political maturity has been stultified by their inability to comprehend any loyalty other than that to family, tribe or religious sect." can easily sound as though he is saying that the arab is inherently too stupid to understand modern civilized concepts of the West. And thinking that an entire group of people is inherently inferior to your own group of people, what is that called again?

As to the first bolded: I don't think he meant that Arabs are to stupid...

I think he meant that arab and western cultures are so far apart that we can't expect each other to act in predictable ways.

Let's face it, the tribe and the religion has a MUCH larger impact on the everyday arabs life, than a white person.

Where did you get that they would be inferior?

This is honestly just your brainwashed PC German post-nazi comprehension of the issue...

They are DIFFERENT - yes.
They are hard to integrate into a western society - sure.
They are inherently inferior - at what?

They might be inherently inferior when it comes to being fully functional in a western society... It does NOT however make them inferior as persons, no?

But with your glasses on, anything that isn't bending over and absolutely spreading - towards immigration and integration is racism, aight?

[Husar]

As to the first bolded: I don't think he meant that Arabs are to stupid...

I think he meant that arab and western cultures are so far apart that we can't expect each other to act in predictable ways.

Let's face it, the tribe and the religion has a MUCH larger impact on the everyday arabs life, than a white person.

Where did you get that they would be inferior?

This is honestly just your brainwashed PC German post-nazi comprehension of the issue...

They are DIFFERENT - yes.
They are hard to integrate into a western society - sure.
They are inherently inferior - at what?

They might be inherently inferior when it comes to being fully functional in a western society... It does NOT however make them inferior as persons, no?

Perhaps, yes.

But with your glasses on, anything that isn't bending over and absolutely spreading - towards immigration and integration is racism, aight?

Yes, absolutely, and you come across totally unbiased saying that. Thank you.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

As to the first bolded: I don't think he meant that Arabs are to stupid...

I think he meant that arab and western cultures are so far apart that we can't expect each other to act in predictable ways.

Let's face it, the tribe and the religion has a MUCH larger impact on the everyday arabs life, than a white person.

Where did you get that they would be inferior?

This is honestly just your brainwashed PC German post-nazi comprehension of the issue...

They are DIFFERENT - yes.
They are hard to integrate into a western society - sure.
They are inherently inferior - at what?

They might be inherently inferior when it comes to being fully functional in a western society... It does NOT however make them inferior as persons, no?

But with your glasses on, anything that isn't bending over and absolutely spreading - towards immigration and integration is racism, aight?

Kad - you need to bookmark this, so next time you're arguing with Husar and groping for an articulate way to express your views on immigration whilst drunk you can link to it.

Also - hey - Kad and I said basically the same thing in two separate threads.

Given that we grew up in different countries it MUST be our shared Swedish ancestry - it's that gene that makes all swedes inherently racist, the one they usually suppress with decades of liberal schooling.