A new view of Islam?

[Brenus]

"Muslims have never lived under Constitutional governments or according to secular laws, everything HAS been filtered through tribe and religion." Err, France has 4 millions "Muslims" (which makes France the most Muslim populated country in Europe, if you don't count Turkey in Europe)and is a Constitutional government and is secular. And "Muslims" live there and don't mass emigrate. In fact, there are more "Muslims" fleeing the "Muslim" states than Muslims going to ISIS. Apparently thousands of them can't wait to come in Evil Western Countries and live a happy life without compulsory religious rules. The Muslim atheists are happy to be protected from genocidal killers by secular laws.

[a completely inoffensive name]

"Muslims have never lived under Constitutional governments or according to secular laws, everything HAS been filtered through tribe and religion." Err, France has 4 millions "Muslims" (which makes France the most Muslim populated country in Europe, if you don't count Turkey in Europe)and is a Constitutional government and is secular. And "Muslims" live there and don't mass emigrate. In fact, there are more "Muslims" fleeing the "Muslim" states than Muslims going to ISIS. Apparently thousands of them can't wait to come in Evil Western Countries and live a happy life without compulsory religious rules. The Muslim atheists are happy to be protected from genocidal killers by secular laws.

France is not a majority Muslim country, and was not founded by Muslims. You still have a counter point with Turkey, unfortunately Turkey has seen its secular constitutional government devolve back into a Islamic autocracy under the current government, so maybe it is time to hop off the ice before it breaks underneath you.

[Pannonian]

France is not a majority Muslim country, and was not founded by Muslims. You still have a counter point with Turkey, unfortunately Turkey has seen its secular constitutional government devolve back into a Islamic autocracy under the current government, so maybe it is time to hop off the ice before it breaks underneath you.

From what LEN has been saying and what I've been seeing, at least some of that is to do with the EU insisting that Turkey become a properly democratic country instead of allowing its Kemalist elite to impose their will on the masses. It turns out the Turkish masses (especially in the countryside) are more alien to our ways than the Kemalists were. We are really stupid and we should stop insisting on everyone following our liberal democratic ways.

[Hax]

France is not a majority Muslim country, and was not founded by Muslims. You still have a counter point with Turkey, unfortunately Turkey has seen its secular constitutional government devolve back into a Islamic autocracy under the current government, so maybe it is time to hop off the ice before it breaks underneath you.

Dude, have you even been to Turkey? The current political process is a setback to say the least, but it's still a far cry from an "Islamic autocracy". Come on now.

[rvg]

Dude, have you even been to Turkey? The current political process is a setback to say the least, but it's still a far cry from an "Islamic autocracy". Come on now.

There is Turkey, and then there's Turkey. Istanbul is no different from any other European metropolis, Izmir is pretty lax as well (basically any tourist spot is). The heartland is very different though: that's where you see men with scruffy beards and headscarved wives.

[Papewaio]

There is Turkey, and then there's Turkey. Istanbul is no different from any other European metropolis, Izmir is pretty lax as well (basically any tourist spot is). The heartland is very different though: that's where you see men with scruffy beards and headscarved wives.

Based on that definition the U.S. is an Amish country...

[Hax]

There is Turkey, and then there's Turkey. Istanbul is no different from any other European metropolis, Izmir is pretty lax as well (basically any tourist spot is). The heartland is very different though: that's where you see men with scruffy beards and headscarved wives.

Yep, and the last time I was in Turkey I was not in Istanbul or Izmir. But okay, let's go along for now, who the hell cares if someone has a scruffy beard or wears a headscarf? Just the fact that there are religious Muslims in Turkey who make up a part of the electorata, doesn't mean it's some kind of "Islamic autocracy". To suggest anything else is simply ridiculous.

I was too overreaching with my point. My apologies. Nevertheless it does seem as if the secular old guard are losing control over the government.

No harm done. If anything, I'm the first to express their concern about the changing situation in Turkey. Interestingly however, Erdogan's AKP actually lost their majority position in the last elections (:

[Pannonian]

Yep, and the last time I was in Turkey I was not in Istanbul or Izmir. But okay, let's go along for now, who the hell cares if someone has a scruffy beard or wears a headscarf? Just the fact that there are religious Muslims in Turkey who make up a part of the electorata, doesn't mean it's some kind of "Islamic autocracy". To suggest anything else is simply ridiculous.

Someone representing them has won a majority in the last few elections though. And that, after we'd been pressing the Kemalist establishment for more freedom and democracy in Turkey. In the future, perhaps it would be better if we were to wait until the majority were more like us in our belief in liberal democratic ideals, before pushing for more democracy. Pushing for majority rule where the majority are hostile to us isn't the cleverest of foreign policy directions.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I just wanted to pop back in to point out that Crander said Greeks don't pay their taxes/are good at avoiding paying taxes.

According to him, that's racist, which undermines his point in this thread.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Dude, have you even been to Turkey? The current political process is a setback to say the least, but it's still a far cry from an "Islamic autocracy". Come on now.

I was too overreaching with my point. My apologies. Nevertheless it does seem as if the secular old guard are losing control over the government.