Investigators Seek Motive Behind Tennessee Shooting Rampage

[Pannonian]

If you reckon Russia and the Ottoman empire compare favourably with western Europe and western Europeanised countries, then I'm thankful that I live in western Europe and you can be thankful that you live in the former Ottoman empire. If I ever move anywhere, I hope I'll be moving elsewhere in western Europe or somewhere else high up in the list of countries with open government and low corruption, and preferably not anywhere that has ever been part of the Ottoman empire.

[Sarmatian]

If you reckon Russia and the Ottoman empire compare favourably with western Europe and western Europeanised countries, then I'm thankful that I live in western Europe and you can be thankful that you live in the former Ottoman empire. If I ever move anywhere, I hope I'll be moving elsewhere in western Europe or somewhere else high up in the list of countries with open government and low corruption, and preferably not anywhere that has ever been part of the Ottoman empire.

What, if I say anything negative about UK you're gonna get insulted?

I'm a history geek, I like to talk about history. I don't think any of those things matter today (in most cases), I just posted various examples that prove you're wrong. No, Britain wasn't a "nice colonial power", it was just a colonial power, period. There's really no such thing as good or nice imperialism/colonialism.

That doesn't mean I'd rather live in Lebanon than Canada.

[Brenus]

"But, if you want to push it, all countries subjugated by the Ottomans, kept their local customs, language, religion." First, that is pushing a lot. Second, that is true for all Colonial powers. And they have to provide Slaves every year, and pay the price to stay alive...
Once again, we can't compare a colonial expansion with Djihads or Crusades, even if both were as well for political and territorial gains.
All Empires did oppressed their possessions from Slavery to "ethnocid" close to genocide as in Belgium Congo or America (South, Central and North).
To be fair, some treatment was given to their own populations... Ireland was starved to death as India was, or the Boers, so Muslims were no more a target to abject treatment than others. Same can be said for Muslim population under Muslim rulers.
As Russia is concerned, Nicolas II ordering to shoot at angry crowds wanting bread show how much "religious" Russia under a good Autocrat was benevolent. Not speaking of few Czars as Ivan The Terrible...
And France had good Religious wars as well: around 2,000,000 victims (lowest estimate), which is the same amount than the Napoleonic wars...

[Sarmatian]

To be fair, some treatment was given to their own populations... Ireland was starved to death as India was, or the Boers, so Muslims were no more a target to abject treatment than others. Same can be said for Muslim population under Muslim rulers.
As Russia is concerned, Nicolas II ordering to shoot at angry crowds wanting bread show how much "religious" Russia under a good Autocrat was benevolent. Not speaking of few Czars as Ivan The Terrible...

I don't really agree with the first part of your post but we've already strayed too far from the original topic so I won't comment on that.

The bottom line - westerners (or Christians if you wish) committed much more violence all over the world and caused much more deaths than Muslims.

That is an answer to the mantra Frags here (and many other elsewhere) repeat constantly that Islam is an inherently violent religion.

[Pannonian]

I don't really agree with the first part of your post but we've already strayed too far from the original topic so I won't comment on that.

The bottom line - westerners (or Christians if you wish) committed much more violence all over the world and caused much more deaths than Muslims.

That is an answer to the mantra Frags here (and many other elsewhere) repeat constantly that Islam is an inherently violent religion.

Right now, at this moment, western Europeanised descendants of the Christian kingdoms produce far more desirable places to live in than the Muslim descendants of the Ottoman empire. To the point where the founder of the direct successor to the Ottoman empire declared that the European civilisation was the only civilisation in the world. Whatever the inherence of the respective religions, I'd far rather live in western Europe than in the former Ottoman empire, and I'd like the former and the latter to have as little to do with each other as possible. I don't care about the moral height or depth of each; I just want to live in my world, while they can go and live in theirs.

[Sarmatian]

Right now, at this moment, western Europeanised descendants of the Christian kingdoms produce far more desirable places to live in than the Muslim descendants of the Ottoman empire. To the point where the founder of the direct successor to the Ottoman empire declared that the European civilisation was the only civilisation in the world. Whatever the inherence of the respective religions, I'd far rather live in western Europe than in the former Ottoman empire, and I'd like the former and the latter to have as little to do with each other as possible. I don't care about the moral height or depth of each; I just want to live in my world, while they can go and live in theirs.

Ottoman Empire from the start was influenced a lot by Greco-Roman legacy so it's not wonder he said that, especially as the new Turkish state was confined to just Anatolia and relieved of the burden of trying to govern Arabic, Persian, Egyptian and Berber areas...

In the end, that's a fair point you're making, but I believe we can agree that we (western governments to be precise) are not really leaving them alone to live in their world.

[Gilrandir]

Hardly. Even though Russian nationalists like to think that, Imperial Russia was just as oppressive as USSR later was.

Comparing the scale of victims, I would say that the Empire falls utterly short of the USSR.

Well, if Kazakhstan is the worst central Asian republic in that regard, it illustrates my point even better.

As you may have noticed, I didn't dispute your point, which is basically correct. I exposed inadequacy of the evidence/proof you chose to exemplify it with.

If I ever move anywhere, I hope I'll be moving elsewhere in western Europe or somewhere else high up in the list of countries with open government and low corruption, and preferably not anywhere that has ever been part of the Ottoman empire.

On the low corruption in the UK:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...-russian-buyer
And on the UK as a perennial stalwart bulwark of democracy and freedom:
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/18/eu...alute-footage/
Brenus will find a proper name for the adult teaching infants to do such things.

[Greyblades]

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/18/eu...alute-footage/
Brenus will find a proper name for the adult teaching infants to do such things.

Wow, a child imitating a nazi salute in the years before their atrocities became public knowledge, how democracy destroying.

[Fragony]

I don't really agree with the first part of your post but we've already strayed too far from the original topic so I won't comment on that.

The bottom line - westerners (or Christians if you wish) committed much more violence all over the world and caused much more deaths than Muslims.

That is an answer to the mantra Frags here (and many other elsewhere) repeat constantly that Islam is an inherently violent religion.

Why do you keep bringing in the age of expansion it has no business here. I could bring in the Arabian slave-trade, or be even cheaper, but that also doesn't belong here so I won't. Yes Islam is an inheritanly violent relgion, and no, not all muslims are violent

capice

[Sarmatian]

Yes Islam is an inheritanly violent relgion,

How can you consider Islam an inherently violent religion when it is a really a mishmash of Judaism and Christianity, sprinkled with some Arab paganism?

A monotheistic religion with a holy book, a God who is demanding your unquestionable obedience, merciful God if you're proper, vengeful if you're not, piety rewarded after death, wickedness punished after death, worldly possessions unimportant, urge to convert the heathens, same commandments, same prophets, same standards of "pious life", same sins, rejection of idols yada yada yada...

I mean, there's even the second coming of Jesus in Islam, who will come back to fight the Anti Christ. In the very early stages of Islam, Muslim were doing their prayers in Christian churches.

[Fragony]

How can you consider Islam an inherently violent religion when it is a really a mishmash of Judaism and Christianity, sprinkled with some Arab paganism?

Daily news should do

[Sarmatian]

Daily news should do

I give up.

[Fragony]

I give up.

Let's make it weekly then, no mass murder of infidels today so far but it's still early, they are probably sleeping

[Gilrandir]

Wow, a child imitating a nazi salute in the years before their atrocities became public knowledge, how democracy destroying.

It is not the child who is to blame, but those who teach her. And the way Hiltler was moving to power and slogans he proclaimed were well known even then.

[Greyblades]

At the time the association between the gesture and the nazis was not set; American students were doing the same salute when doing the morning pledge of allegiance. That the queen was filmed doing the same when a child says absolutely nothing either about her, her parents or her country that comes even close to the point you are failing to make.

[Pannonian]

On the low corruption in the UK:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...-russian-buyer
And on the UK as a perennial stalwart bulwark of democracy and freedom:
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/18/eu...alute-footage/
Brenus will find a proper name for the adult teaching infants to do such things.

I suppose Ukraine is the place to turn to if you want an example of a bulwark against Nazism, or an example of a wholly incorruptible government. How many Ukrainians served in the SS? Tens of thousands, wasn't it, with some of the worst units being Ukrainian? How many British served in the SS? Less than 50, wasn't it? And most of those cried off when it came to actually doing anything.

Government corruption perception results for 2014. Britain is 14th in the world with a score of 78, firmly in the first world category and ahead of some other indisputably first world countries, including France and the US. Ukraine is 142nd in the world with a score of 26, lowest ranking of all the major former Soviet states. If put into sub-Saharan Africa, which has the lowest general scores in the regions listed, Ukraine would be classed in the lowest third.

https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results

Methinks I prefer living in western Europe.

[Fragony]

Had to google 'Barbados', that's an oddball in the top 20

[Sarmatian]

The problem with this is that it a perception. It gives a good overview but shouldn't be taken as gospel.

[Fragony]

We can read

[Sarmatian]

We can read

Sorry, Mr. Plural.

[Fragony]

Sorry, Mr. Plural.

Just because it's big doesn't mean I got more than one

[Pannonian]

The problem with this is that it a perception. It gives a good overview but shouldn't be taken as gospel.

Your general whereabouts on the list is a pretty good indication of where you are as a country. Well off countries are at the top, worse off countries at the bottom. And within each grouping, which is greatly influenced by your geographical whereabouts, there are certain factors which are apparent as well. For example, a look at the top of the list shows that homogenous populations are higher up the list than heterogenous populations. Among the heterogenous countries, the UK ranks highest. However, among the heterogenous countries, it also has the lowest proportion of non-European population. Objectively speaking, France and the US have probably done better than the UK to get the scores they did (particularly the US, given its size and varied systems of government). Similarly, Serbia is part of a group consisting of the former Yugoslav states. As it was the hub of that group of states, it's lower down than some due to population movement and integration. But it's well within the group, so it's not doing too badly relative to its location.

[Sarmatian]

Your general whereabouts on the list is a pretty good indication of where you are as a country. Well off countries are at the top, worse off countries at the bottom. And within each grouping, which is greatly influenced by your geographical whereabouts, there are certain factors which are apparent as well. For example, a look at the top of the list shows that homogenous populations are higher up the list than heterogenous populations. Among the heterogenous countries, the UK ranks highest. However, among the heterogenous countries, it also has the lowest proportion of non-European population. Objectively speaking, France and the US have probably done better than the UK to get the scores they did (particularly the US, given its size and varied systems of government). Similarly, Serbia is part of a group consisting of the former Yugoslav states. As it was the hub of that group of states, it's lower down than some due to population movement and integration. But it's well within the group, so it's not doing too badly relative to its location.

I don't disagree.

I was thinking more a situation when a Country A was in a really, really bad shape, but improved a lot and moved to being in a just bad shape, people may subjectively rate it higher than it should be as they focus on the huge improvement and not assess the situation properly. It works other way around.

Also, awareness of corruption level in other countries is important in making the assessment, especially those countries your country is more involved with. For instance, Serbia is gravitating towards EU, we're doing most our business with EU and we're naturally much more aware in the situation in EU than other regions. That makes me compare corruption levels in Serbia with corruption level in UK, Germany, France or Scandinavia and say that situation in Serbia is terrible. If Serbia were in Asia, I'd be comparing the situation with that in China,Vietnam, India and Myanmar and say that corruption in Serbia isn't that bad.

It's very subjective. It's good for getting a rough idea but that's just about it.

[Hooahguy]

Not really relevant to this particular discussion but I need a platform to rant for a second.

All this about the flag not being lowered is total bull. Nobody who is complaining about the flag not being immediately lowered gives a rats about fallen soldiers, they are just getting political points, nothing more. The outrage is all so manufactured that it sickens me.

[Husar]

Let's make it weekly then, no mass murder of infidels today so far but it's still early, they are probably sleeping

LOL

How hard is it to understand that the last soandso many years of violence perpetrated by some extremists don't prove that anything is inherent to a religion that has been around for more than a thousand years? You're basically taking the view of the extremists and saying they are correct. Why don't you tell the non-violent muslims that they should kill you if they want to follow their religion properly? Maybe you can even convince them with your superior understanding of Islam.

Among the heterogenous countries, the UK ranks highest.

Define heterogenous country. Why is the UK one while Sweden and the Netherlands are not?

[Brenus]

“How hard is it to understand that the last so and so many years of violence perpetrated by some extremists don't prove that anything is inherent to a religion that has been around for more than a thousand years? You're basically taking the view of the extremists and saying they are correct.” How hard is to understand that extremists justify rightly their actions are on line with the Holy teaching. So it is inherent to a religion. Is it compulsory? No (let's pretend). However it not a sin to burn people alive or to throw homosexuals from building or to kill Jews and so and so because the Prophet himself did it or it is clearly written in the Holly scriptures.
For these reason, pretending that these actions are not religious is plainly wrong.

“Why don't you tell the non-violent muslims that they should kill you if they want to follow their religion properly?” Err, they are. Killing Jews, agnostics, atheists, relapses and pagans is clearly a command, but much of the Muslims, being human beings, just choose to ignore this command. In theory that makes them bad Muslim, but as it makes them better human beings, they live with it.
However, this points out THE problem. They are better human beings by living against the teaching of the Holly Book.

So, we have two problems:
Denying that violence is inherent to religion (I picked Muslim one, I could have done the same with the 2 other monotheistic religions) is a cul-de-sac, as everyone reading the book(s) can see it is not true.
Second, to be a better human being goes against the Message(s) of God allegedly provided by the Holly Book(s).
Let’s go for the Christian faith:
The only way out of it is to reform and pretend that God change is message (so good-bye God as all knowledge etc.) and to “forgot” bad passages in the book but in maintaining the “bibleish” of the Holly Books that can’t be contested even if you just do this.
And that where Religions have problems. Some do.
A new-born Christian just told me that the Bible is partly rubbish, partially history, partially word of God mixed with pure propaganda. She de facto rejects the meaning of the Gospel, but refuses to go until the end of the logic. Fine with me, as I can understand a desire to believe in a God who wouldn’t be a maniac genocidal one.
But her view doesn’t mean that Slavery is not a Christian value, so rape, slaughter and genocide as the Bible clearly shows God allowing it, even told the warriors to do exactly this. So pretending that slavery or genocide is not inherent, part of, the Holly Book, foundation of Christianity is untrue.
What is true is Christians (if you kick out the Army of the Lord in Uganda) reject nowadays slavery. As it is not compulsory to have slaves in order to be good Christian, they can. But they can’t say that to be a slaves’ owner is against Christian’s principles.

[Fragony]

Why don't you tell the non-violent muslims that they should kill you if they want to follow their religion properly?

I don't have to they aready know it. They just don't do it. Moderate muslims ignore parts of the Quran because they feel it belongs in a different time

[Montmorency]

Textual positivism is false, so by misunderstanding why in fact those who are wrong are wrong, you become wronger-than-wrong.

[Fragony]

LOL

wellll, they woke up, yesterday 20, just read it. How many today I will probably read it tomorow. Tomorrow is probably going to be a very normal day so people are going to get blown up

[Husar]

I don't have to they aready know it. They just don't do it. Moderate muslims ignore parts of the Quran because they feel it belongs in a different time

So they think of themselves as bad muslims?

wellll, they woke up, yesterday 20, just read it. How many today I will probably read it tomorow. Tomorrow is probably going to be a very normal day so people are going to get blown up

People get shot every day in the USA, any comments on what barbarians Americans are? Or maybe on how capitalism and freedom are barbaric ideas?