10 years

[Greyblades]

I have memories of getting a warning for saying "hell", apparantly it was too close to an abbreviation of Helvete, a swedish swearword.

[Sarmatian]

That was done for practical reasons, backroom being trolled by some activist group or other, and the practice was discontinued as soon as the reason for its implementation ceased to exist.

Suggesting it was strict for a few minutes to somehow bump Louis off is fantasy.

I'm suggesting that good natured jesting was never a cause for persecution, and that there were many worse examples left unsanctioned. ACIN and Drunken Clown played into hands of some of the staff members who disliked Louis and Banquo, who then pulled a dusty rule book and said look, insulting other members ist verboten, calling someone a fag is an insult, so let's get them.

Don't make me go look for examples.

[GeneralHankerchief]

This is exactly the bullshit I'm sick of. For the record, I didn't exchange a single PM with Louis. I've learned about from PM with those who were in contact with Louis. So, I don't even have a single primary source. Several secondary sources at best. Also, I didn't have a bromance with Louis like Strike did. We exchanged a few jokes over the years, but by and large, we were talking only in the backroom and monastery. I didn't even know what was going on until I noticed that Louis simply isn't posting anymore, and I found out only recently that it's all related to BG and Adrian leaving.

BUT, I don't really need any of that to understand what was going on. Two years later, one of the guys who trolled Louis and demanded a public punishment, ACIN, called another member "slut" in jest. You could try and look for a lifetime for such a perfect equivalence. No one batted an eye. When I pointed it out, Andres' explanation was "well, we're not as strict now".

There are dozens of examples before and since, and it appears we became "strict" for just a short period of time, to demand of Louis to repent his wicked ways and apologize, and after he was gone, we returned to "not so strict" ways. Screw that.

Wow, okay, the misconceptions are starting to pile up here.

Firstly, in the year between Louis's departure and you receiving your apparently unsatisfying response from Andres, the forum had gone through several different administrators. At the time of Louis's departure, Ser Clegane was the sole admin, having ascended to the post in light of Tosa's passing. By that time the following year, Ser Clegane had stepped down with Andres, frogbeastegg, and Secura having taken his place. There was lots of other restructuring behind the scenes that followed, but I think it's safe to say that there's a fairly obvious connection between the change in administrators and the change in policies.

Second of all, if there was any inconsistency in how people are treated beyond the concept of policies changing with time and people being human, it is because moderators were and are expected to uphold a higher standard of conduct.

Thirdly, I'm sure you're aware of how closely your argument is starting to lean towards "but Truthiness!" so I won't elaborate on the matter.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Someone is taking this too seriously.

[Kagemusha]

Further we look in the past, stricter things were.

For example, you used to post at least 10 times in the Entrance Hall before you could post anywhere else, after you have been 'approved'.
Then there was the Junior Member system where you couldn't edit your posts and restricted in where you could post. The edit part was a little painful for me, as I am a sucker for constantly tweaking posts, that whole 'oh, I should include this, or reword that' once you left the room sensation.
The Backroom used to be a sealed off fortress where you had to be vetted before you could even read it.
I acquired infractions for using the term 'Damn', I got a warning for calling another member 'sillybilly' when it was said in jest, as it was classed as a personal attack.
This is how strict it was, thus, by comparison, Louis's not even getting a post edit for saying 'muslim fag' was used as an argument of hypocrisy.

Suggesting it was strict for a few minutes to somehow bump Louis off is fantasy.

Sorry Beskar but with all due respect, i have to call BS to that. You are talking about trees not the forest here.

To be honest. I would not go commenting something as an Admin you have little experience of the matter itself. This discussion is not about forum rules or how those are being maintained per se, but administrative issues and personal chemistries.

[Sarmatian]

Wow, okay, the misconceptions are starting to pile up here.

Firstly, in the year between Louis's departure and you receiving your apparently unsatisfying response from Andres, the forum had gone through several different administrators. At the time of Louis's departure, Ser Clegane was the sole admin, having ascended to the post in light of Tosa's passing. By that time the following year, Ser Clegane had stepped down with Andres, frogbeastegg, and Secura having taken his place. There was lots of other restructuring behind the scenes that followed, but I think it's safe to say that there's a fairly obvious connection between the change in administrators and the change in policies.

You obviously didn't notice my clever use of "ist verboten". Or maybe it wasn't as clever as I thought it was.

I'm aware of that. I blame quite a few of those people you mentioned. And I blame some others for not standing up for BG and Louis. Beskar's post in that very thread...

This post was so tempting to go off-topic, but to condense what I want to write, the Org staff from back then was a powderkeg waiting to explode and it erupted into Fag-gate. This erupted resulted into a brand new era and direction for the Org as innovation and reform was stifled heavily by the 'Unwritten Code' which some staff members fought tooth and nail to keep, to the detriment to the Org. This 'code' was finally broken as Fag-gate caused what was perceived to be the 'Unthinkable' to be done. In one light, you could think of Louis as a matyr, ushering a new start for the Org, in the other, he was a man just like everyone else who has their flaws caught up in an untenable situation.

... also proves I'm right. Although that new start never materialized, cavalry came only after the Indians killed John Wayne and Garry Cooper.

Second of all, if there was any inconsistency in how people are treated beyond the concept of policies changing with time and people being human, it is because moderators were and are expected to uphold a higher standard of conduct.

Don't give me that. No one was insulted, but apparently, some of the staff took the effort to bleed on Fragony's behalf.

Thirdly, I'm sure you're aware of how closely your argument is starting to lean towards "but Truthiness!" so I won't elaborate on the matter.

No I'm not. You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to not give a rat's ass about it.

[Strike For The South]

The warning system was never implemented with an even hand. Which is fine, moderators are people and they do this for free. I just can't get behind the idea that we were so much stricter back then. I was constantly gettitng away with bullying other members, it was fantastic. Then those other memebers complained and they got banned. The good old days were good indeed.

louis was railroaded, banqou left because of the children, and now finding a member who can interact in a social suiuation is a cause for celebration.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Beskar also corrected himself about his previous perceptions earlier in this thread, so the post of his you quoted is not accurate. (-edit- post directed towards Sarmation, I started writing before SFTS replied)

Anyway, congrats again Strike.

[Sarmatian]

Beskar also corrected himself about his previous perceptions earlier in this thread, so the post of his you quoted is not accurate. (-edit- post directed towards Sarmation, I started writing before SFTS replied)

I'm pretty sure he didn't mean that post.

[Beskar]

I'm pretty sure he didn't mean that post.

That post was done a couple of years back, but some elements are correct. As I said earlier on which Kagemusha quoted, the Org used to be a lot stricter place and it was through a period of transition due to the unfortunate departure of TosaInu. Kagemusha is also correct in reply that it wasn't solely the rules themselves but the personal behind its enforcement occurring at different standards which led to issues in itself as well.

On of the consequences of the event, the Org experienced a liberalisation in the standards of the moderation. This is something which some members welcomed, whilst others have been critical of. So instead of moderation being more pro-active, moderation became more reactive to the members. The concept of pro-active moderation with the shifts in the expectation of wider internet society can be seen as a powderkeg which was waiting to explode, as should moderators be beat cops ensuring everyone in compliance, or are they the facilitators?

Personally, I like to think even though I may disagree with some patrons in the backroom with my opinions on some subject matters, they also know I don't 'abuse' my powers and trust me not to do so, and in any situation I felt my integrity has been compromised, I have always referred the matter to someone else to handle.

In the post you quoted, I was erroneous on the assumption at that time about Louis as it was the de facto belief that the reason was solely because of Louis-gate. I believe this is what GH was meaning.

The 'Unthinkable' mentioned in the post was the idea of a moderator ever being 'stripped off' the green as it was (I believe) the first time it had ever occurred and was a very reluctant action for that very same reason.

[Husar]

You guys are funny.
The Dolchstoßlegende is big in this one.

Also, what about Hosakawa Tito?

[Fragony]

No one was insulted, but apparently, some of the staff took the effort to bleed on Fragony's behalf.

Not on my behalf, I didn't even know about that post, and I certainly wouldn't have complained if I had.

[Husar]

Not on my behalf, I didn't even know about that post, and I certainly wouldn't have complained if I had.

I don't know why people keep mentioning you, maybe it is based on what Louis told some but it makes little sense.
Louis was not suitable or bearable as a moderator anymore IMO and I personally asked Ser Clegane to demote him. Whether that was the deciding factor I do not know as there may as well have been others and I was not involved in the decision.
If he told someone that I held a grudge against him anyway or that I backstabbed him, that wouldn't be the only stuff he made up at the time to avoid admitting a mistake...

So much for my version.

[Gilrandir]

Further we look in the past, stricter things were.

I acquired infractions for using the term 'Damn', I got a warning for calling another member 'sillybilly' when it was said in jest, as it was classed as a personal attack.

And now you can easily make a chauvinistic and humiliating comment about another nation and get away with it. Cheers.

[Husar]

And now you can easily make a chauvinistic and humiliating comment about another nation and get away with it. Cheers.

Nations don't have feelings, they only exist in our heads.

[Fragony]

I don't know why people keep mentioning you, maybe it is based on what Louis told some but it makes little sense.
Louis was not suitable or bearable as a moderator anymore IMO and I personally asked Ser Clegane to demote him. Whether that was the deciding factor I do not know as there may as well have been others and I was not involved in the decision.
If he told someone that I held a grudge against him anyway or that I backstabbed him, that wouldn't be the only stuff he made up at the time to avoid admitting a mistake...

So much for my version.

You guys have explained yourself well enough, I know it isn't about me, I just don't want people to get the idea that I got a hand in this as I was oblivious about this whole affair, I never knew why these guys left. I don't think the moderators did anything wrong, rules are rules. I also got warning-points I thought were unfair but I never took it personal. Some newer posters seem to think some are privileged, all of this couldn't make it clearer that that assumption is wrong.

[Brenus]

"And now you can easily make a chauvinistic and humiliating comment about another nation and get away with it." Were you in the org during the period of "cheese eater surrendering monkeys" period?
The org is still one forum largely above other sites for the good behiavour and conduct in debate. Not perfect, but at least no insult. Sometimes it is borderlines, but it is within an acceptable fringe.

[Sarmatian]

I don't know why people keep mentioning you, maybe it is based on what Louis told some but it makes little sense.
Louis was not suitable or bearable as a moderator anymore IMO and I personally asked Ser Clegane to demote him. Whether that was the deciding factor I do not know as there may as well have been others and I was not involved in the decision.
If he told someone that I held a grudge against him anyway or that I backstabbed him, that wouldn't be the only stuff he made up at the time to avoid admitting a mistake...

So much for my version.

Thank you. That wasn't so hard, now was it?

He often lied to cover up his mistakes. I didn't want him to be moderator and I wanted him removed, and I personally intervened to have him stripped of it. It had nothing to do with him calling Fragony a muslim fag in jest.

This is what I've been saying, all along. Fag was just a convenient excuse by people who wanted him removed.

And this is infinitely more fair than the company line we've been fed for 4 years now. But, you're not the biggest fish that needs to be fried here...

Not on my behalf, I didn't even know about that post, and I certainly wouldn't have complained if I had.

I know, that's why I said it. You weren't even aware and wouldn't have been insulted even if you were, but some staff members were insulted on your behalf and used it to remove Louis, as a part of a bigger, hidden feud going on in the moderators private forum, which was also the real reason why BG and Louis left.

[Beskar]

And this is infinitely more fair than the company line we've been fed for 4 years now.

More the rules don't allow a lot of communication on the matter.

You haven't actually been fed a company line, it was more that we cannot talk about infractions and personal issues without the persons consent and Louis is a consenting adult. So if he came in here and discussed it, then it is clear he is giving his permission, thus we could.

This is different to 'company line' as I believe that is where you are forcing a version of events, which isn't the case or not the intention. The quoted Husar post is just him simply saying about what he felt/did at the time as a role of a member.

So apologies for any impression that I might have given which appears I am trying to be deceitful.

[Kagemusha]

I know, that's why I said it. You weren't even aware and wouldn't have been insulted even if you were, but some staff members were insulted on your behalf and used it to remove Louis, as a part of a bigger, hidden feud going on in the moderators private forum, which was also the real reason why BG and Louis left.

Leaving of Louis and Banquo were completely separate incidents and as far as i can recall Banquo´s leaving had no drama connected to it.

Ever since Tosa passed away trough the point i gave away my Mod ropes, to the point i asked my Keep access to be terminated. I had hard time agreeing with most of Administrations line of thinking, while certainly my own attitude was far from being very constructive. In any case i dont agree that there was some sort of systematical "cleansing" going on in the staff, like some seem to think. Rather just bunch of worn out and worried people trying to achieve what they thought was best for the site.

[Sarmatian]

Leaving of Louis and Banquo were completely separate incidents and as far as i can recall Banquo´s leaving had no drama connected to it.

Not according to Louis and Banquo. Banquo just stepped down quietly.

Ever since Tosa passed away trough the point i gave away my Mod ropes, to the point i asked my Keep access to be terminated. I had hard time agreeing with most of Administrations line of thinking, while certainly my own attitude was far from being very constructive. In any case i dont agree that there was some sort of systematical "cleansing" going on in the staff, like some seem to think. Rather just bunch of worn out and worried people trying to achieve what they thought was best for the site.

It wasn't a systematic cleansing, it was a part of staff coming down on those they disagreed with.

And Adrian leaving because of that. No one thinks there's something odd about Adrian starting a thread thanking Banquo after he stepped down, expressing pleasure that Banquo will stay as a member and then immediately leaving without a single word? Between starting that thread and leaving, Adrian received a pm from BG explaining to him that it wasn't voluntary but that he and Louis were basically forced out. Yes, in the end they stepped down "voluntarily" but only because they didn't want to take the abuse any more. Some of it happened in the moderators forum, but both of them also received quite a few abusive pm's.

In the end, those "worn out" people basically destroyed the backroom/tavern/off topic part of the forum, and most of them had little to no contact with it. Members of the staff who did, instead of telling them to f*** off, joined them or stood idly by.

[Fragony]

"And now you can easily make a chauvinistic and humiliating comment about another nation and get away with it." Were you in the org during the period of "cheese eater surrendering monkeys" period?
The org is still one forum largely above other sites for the good behiavour and conduct in debate. Not perfect, but at least no insult. Sometimes it is borderlines, but it is within an acceptable fringe.

+1

The org is a very civilised place, even when people completily disagree it always stays classy.

[Gilrandir]

Nations don't have feelings, they only exist in our heads.

In this case nation=country=population of it.

"And now you can easily make a chauvinistic and humiliating comment about another nation and get away with it." Were you in the org during the period of "cheese eater surrendering monkeys" period?
The org is still one forum largely above other sites for the good behiavour and conduct in debate. Not perfect, but at least no insult. Sometimes it is borderlines, but it is within an acceptable fringe.

Not from those who are supposed to see to it that the rules are kept.

[Sarmatian]

Not from those who are supposed to see to it that the rules are kept.

Don't turn into a Drunken Clown. It was a joke. Get over it.

[Fragony]

In this case nation=country=population of it.


Not from those who are supposed to see to it that the rules are kept.

There are no rules against nation-bashing as far as I know, I would be a very sad puppy if there were. Just don't take it personal, it's of no use. You are going to get offended here, just get over it and don't act like a Disney princess.

edit, too hilarious to not post https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSz0iVhvqog

[Kagemusha]

Not according to Louis and Banquo. Banquo just stepped down quietly.


It wasn't a systematic cleansing, it was a part of staff coming down on those they disagreed with.

And Adrian leaving because of that. No one thinks there's something odd about Adrian starting a thread thanking Banquo after he stepped down, expressing pleasure that Banquo will stay as a member and then immediately leaving without a single word? Between starting that thread and leaving, Adrian received a pm from BG explaining to him that it wasn't voluntary but that he and Louis were basically forced out. Yes, in the end they stepped down "voluntarily" but only because they didn't want to take the abuse any more. Some of it happened in the moderators forum, but both of them also received quite a few abusive pm's.

In the end, those "worn out" people basically destroyed the backroom/tavern/off topic part of the forum, and most of them had little to no contact with it. Members of the stuff who did, instead of telling them to f*** off, joined them or stood idly by.

And you have any first hand information concerning any of this?

[Fragony]

And you have any first hand information concerning any of this?

Let it rest imho, they aren't comming back as it seems, no need for a maelström for those involved. I for one never expected such a thing happening here, I thought the staff were all friendly with eachother. Must say I am a bit shocked.

[Kagemusha]

Let it rest imho, they aren't comming back as it seems, no need for a maelström for those involved. I for one never expected such a thing happening here, I thought the staff were all friendly with eachother. Must say I am a bit shocked.

You are right. I leave it to that.

[Sarmatian]

And you have any first hand information concerning any of this?

For some, yes. For others, secondhand.

Most importantly, all the pieces fit perfectly together.

Let it rest imho

Nah. I like exposing hypocrites and cowards.
More importantly, I think it is one of the main reasons why my favourite political discussion board declined in quality so much.

[Husar]

This is what I've been saying, all along. Fag was just a convenient excuse by people who wanted him removed.

See, this is complete BS again because you insinuate that:
1) I wanted him removed even before or during the first part of the affair, that is NOT true.
2) his public comments were somehow the official or inofficial reason given for his removal when in fact Ser Clegane never gave one single reason IIRC.
3) that he was somehow blameless or made only a minor mistake when in fact he backstabbed me several times, tried to discredit me with the other moderators because I voiced my opinion and treated me like a silly child while I repeatedly told him that this made me angry before I asked for him to be removed.

Or are ou saying that because he was funnier than me he had the right to bully me and I should have shut up and taken it?
Tell me why I should be fried at all.

And noone has commented on Hosakawa Tito yet.