IMMIGRATION thread

[CrossLOPER]

Seriously, what is your point?

Biologically speaking, how does one choose their father?

[Kadagar_AV]

Biologically speaking, how does one choose their father?

Because the "niece" was directed to my niece, and the "her" was directed to her daughter...




EDIT: I get that the sentence was confusing, but if you look at the post before it, it makes perfect sense.


BUT CHEERS FOR YOU WONDERFUL PEOPLE STILL SLAMMING ME AFTER I SAID STOP AND TRIED TO STEER THE TOPIC TOWARDS WHAT WE ARE HERE FOR, WHICH LAST I CHECKED, WAS NOT LET-KAD-SHOW-YOU-YOUR-OWN-FAILURES-AT-ATTACKING-HIS-PERSON-OR-GRAMMAR.







So....








Germany, closed of their borders... Because of beerfest? They realised it was absolutely moronic, or what?

[AE Bravo]

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/view...-a-future.html

[Husar]

EDIT: I get that the sentence was confusing, but if you look at the post before it, it makes perfect sense.

No, no it does not.

[Kadagar_AV]

No, no it does not.

what's the problem then?

[Kadagar_AV]

Love how you still focus on me instead of the betterment of Germany or Europe... Is this the new BR standard?



I love you all, you guys rock my world!

[Viking]

First of all, I am not - to take an example, saying everyone in Japan is intelligent. What I am saying is that if we take in loads of people from Japan to - say - Sweden, school results are likely to go up.

What I am saying is: how do long you expect that increase to last, when the Japanese gradually adopt a Swedish lifestyle?

That is not even prejudice, it's fact. Hey, I even heard that in the USA, students are told to "keep down" their asianess if they want to get into uni, as there are so many asians there and the unis try to run race-programs to make society more "equal" for the blacks.

Again, the assumption here is that the difference will last. If you travelled from Rome to Sweden during ancient times, you could easily be led to the conclusion that Sweden will remain a place where hardly anyone can read, while Rome will remain the shining jewel of civilisation. What actually happened is that the rest of Europe over time exceeded the original Roman standards by a lot.

How the HELL can you from anything I have written drawn the conclusion that I would in any way support expelling Swedes below a certain IQ score?

I didn't. That was part of the point. Much concern about unintelligent foreigners. Equally unintelligent Swedes? Nah, what's the problem? They are probably stupid in an OK manner, or something.

AND LOL, do you actually live in a world, where if you wanted a guard dog, you would not be able to see any difference between dog breeds, as DNA can't prove who would be the most adequate?

How do you go about finding out which breed is most suitable for guard duty? By teaching at a dog school where one breed comes from homes we're they've been trained well, one breed coming from a home where their owners gave them way too little food and one breed that came in from the street? You think that would be a fair comparison?

No, you'll utilise the fact that dogs have been bred with specific purposes in mind. This allows the different dog breeds to become caricatures where they can have exaggerated characteristics relative to the average, and where the original breeders will know which traits were selected for - information that can be passed on over generations.

Humans weren't bred in any similar fashion, so you don't have that kind of information for them. Comparing breeding of dogs to human evolution is hardly useful in this context for such reasons.

DAMN MAN, have you taught African kids much? I have, and it's an absolute HORROR.

Look what I just wrote:

Nutrition could influence, education could influence; and effects could accumulate over generations.

Either you don't comprehend the argument, or you just skipped right over it; or you are just looking for another excuse to rant. Which one is it?

[Fragony]

Germany, closed of their borders... Because of beerfest? They realised it was absolutely moronic, or what?

ring ring, 2007 is calling you Mutti Merkel. This enormous clusterfuck of bad decisions is going to hit hard next elections. Not only did that plumb eastblock workhorse promise the impossible, she also turns out to be unthrustworthy. Absolutily moronic covers it allright. I still love her because I despise the EU and she destroys it just by grabbing at straws. Got to love the combination of panic and narcism.

It gets more hilarious, Germany has actually resorted to blackmail, member-states are to be getting less money if they don't solve Germany's problems. But they are smart enough to understand that solving Germany's idiocy is much more expensive and costly, both materialistic and cultural

[wooly_mammoth]

Much as I dislike Viktor Orban for his past attitude towards my country, I think he's the man of the hour. Way to go for protecting your borders and the rest of the Union. Hungary has plans for extending the fence around their frontier with Romania as well, but the authorities here, instead of giving a taffing hand at helping them out with that, are naturally screaming "fascists!" all over the place. Such idiots.

[Gilrandir]

Much as I dislike Viktor Orban for his past attitude towards my country, I think he's the man of the hour. Way to go for protecting your borders and the rest of the Union. Hungary has plans for extending the fence around their frontier with Romania as well, but the authorities here, instead of giving a taffing hand at helping them out with that, are naturally screaming "fascists!" all over the place. Such idiots.

I agree. Borders must be borders (at least the outer borders of the EU) with fences and moats. In that case you can easily seal them against any contingencies.

[Montmorency]

Much as I dislike Viktor Orban for his past attitude towards my country, I think he's the man of the hour. Way to go for protecting your borders and the rest of the Union. Hungary has plans for extending the fence around their frontier with Romania as well, but the authorities here, instead of giving a taffing hand at helping them out with that, are naturally screaming "fascists!" all over the place. Such idiots.

I know, right? His fascism stands independent of border fences.

[Husar]

Some mayor of a German city said he'd like to trade some eastern euros for more Syrian refugees if he could during a conference where everyone was asked to talk about problems openly.

So what makes the eastern euros worse than the Syrians? I can't really explain it using the theories of this thread.

[wooly_mammoth]

Well, along with the many specialists that left Romania for western countries (medics, scientists so on), also a lot of organized crime moved there for the bigger plunder. Romania thus became a much safer place, at the expense of our western neighbors.

[Montmorency]

First-generation immigrant mafias are a well-known phenomenon all over the world. The good news is that they don't tend to last beyond the first two generations, especially if the society at-large is not violent or chaotic, and the immigrants have interest and opportunities in, uh, safer work.

[Husar]

Well, along with the many specialists that left Romania for western countries (medics, scientists so on), also a lot of organized crime moved there for the bigger plunder. Romania thus became a much safer place, at the expense of our western neighbors.

But if I'm to believe this thread, the Syrians are here for the same reason, so how would the trade help the mayor?
And in the spirit of the thread, why are the Romanians obviously inherently culturally inferior to the Syrians?

[Viking]

Here's the solution: send them to Brazil

"When I found out that the Brazilian Embassy in Beirut was offering 'laissez-passer' (right of passage) to refugees of the war in Syria, it was the best option for me. Why pay $3,000 or $4,000 (£1,955-£2,607) to get smuggled across the sea and risk drowning, when for half of that price I can fly to Brazil?"

[wooly_mammoth]

And in the spirit of the thread, why are the Romanians obviously inherently culturally inferior to the Syrians?

I think that flak is actually directed at the gypsy minority, which overall is indeed quite primitive. These people however never claim to be gypsies in western countries, but rather "romanians" so I guess that's how that went by.

[Pannonian]

Some mayor of a German city said he'd like to trade some eastern euros for more Syrian refugees if he could during a conference where everyone was asked to talk about problems openly.

So what makes the eastern euros worse than the Syrians? I can't really explain it using the theories of this thread.

Maybe the German city is lacking ready money, so they're willing to take in Syrians from eastern European countries if the latter are willing to pay the city some euros. Trading eastern euros for Syrians may be a good way of making money, although I'm not sure where this stands in human trafficking.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

But each of those 1000 is just one guy to his respective teacher, Kadagar claims to think in terms of the larger political picture, then surely he would be aware of it and know that he is contributing to the system at large? It's a bit like saying that your vote in a democracy has no impact and therefore it does not matter who you vote for.

OK - so - lets say a Syrian family moves in next door, lets say they're Syriac Christians even and they're in Germany because they're fleeing IS? Great right? Nobody, not even Kad is going to object to one refugee family on the street, even if they don't understand the local way of doing things they can and will learn, their children will go to the local school and get a good, German, education.

Excellent.

Now, suppose half the houses on the street are taken up by Syriac Christians who, having clumped together, don't integrate but stay huddled as a group. Now, this is understandable but it presents a bit of a problem when, say, the men start of congregate in the even outside their houses and get a bit drunk and rowdy rather than going to the tavern and getting rowdy there and then rolling home, which is more or less what I assume German men do. It gets a bit more awkward when all the children clump together at school and speak their native language together because they'll be much harder for the children to police - to know if someone is being bullied etc.

This is a bit of a problem but with the effort of the local town government you can probably smooth things over if you get the adults of the dozen or so families together and explain that you want them there but that certain things they are doing are not considered appropriate in Germany.

OK - now three streets - bigger problem, harder to handle.

Now a whole district of the town - at this point you're basically going to have a self contained community, there's no real chance of "integration" into German society, the best you can hope for is co-operation and coexistence, but you now have a new, separate, community in the town.

Now, different people have different thresholds they are willing to accept, some will accept a single family, some a few in one street, some will accept whole districts in towns and cities being transformed so long as they obey the law - and some will make excuses for the newcomers and claim we shouldn't be so hard on them for not following our laws.

Kad is clearly fairly far down on the scale, probably more than one family to a street but below the level where you get any clumping together on street corners.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think that flak is actually directed at the gypsy minority, which overall is indeed quite primitive. These people however never claim to be gypsies in western countries, but rather "romanians" so I guess that's how that went by.

Ah, actually they describe themselves as "Romani" which used to be spelled "Romany" but has now been Latinised and is therefor indistinguishable from the Latin Romani which of course means "of the Romans" and which people now assume must refer to modern Romanians.

Cunning, eh?

[wooly_mammoth]

That too but I remember seeing them in the news stating quite clearly that they are "români” which means ”romanians”. At least those that are still in Romania do not like to be called ”rromi”, which means ”romani” (though it is the politically correct term) but still prefer ”țigani”, which is ”gypsies”.

[Husar]

Now, this is understandable but it presents a bit of a problem when, say, the men start of congregate in the even outside their houses and get a bit drunk and rowdy rather than going to the tavern and getting rowdy there and then rolling home, which is more or less what I assume German men do.

Certainly not the ones who were sitting in front of the door of the house I lived in with the rest of their family and friends, often screaming obscenities at each other during the night and leaving a mess behind. As I said somewhere, show me the difference to natives living in the same area.

It gets a bit more awkward when all the children clump together at school and speak their native language together because they'll be much harder for the children to police - to know if someone is being bullied etc.

Yes, I'm aware, there are also children at certain schools who threaten their teachers by dangling them outside a window. Usually a problem in the lower class schools in Germany though, where most of the refugees end up since they usually don't arrive with well-filled bank accounts and are "dumped" by the government in the cheapest areas. As I said before, the ghettoization is more or less by design, a very flawed design indeed but not entirely the fault of the immigrants. What I really hate about this are people who already leave their neighborhood if the government settles an immigrant family or two there, they just contribute to the ghettoization by indirectly demanding and helping it. I am also fully aware that we cannot accept too many people at once, which would also not be a problem if they were properly distributed across Europe, but instead they are clumped in one or two countries. Granted, they want to come here and even throw stones if they can't, but I have no problems with them being either forced to go elsewhere or not let in at all if they think they can demand that. Integration is not only the burden of the immigrant, it is something the entire society and especially the politics have to support. Crating ghettos and expecting them to integrate is obviously a big failure in most cases.

Now a whole district of the town - at this point you're basically going to have a self contained community, there's no real chance of "integration" into German society, the best you can hope for is co-operation and coexistence, but you now have a new, separate, community in the town.

Yes, as I said, this is not new to me, it's just not a reason to be xenophobic.

Now, different people have different thresholds they are willing to accept, some will accept a single family, some a few in one street, some will accept whole districts in towns and cities being transformed so long as they obey the law - and some will make excuses for the newcomers and claim we shouldn't be so hard on them for not following our laws.

Kad is clearly fairly far down on the scale, probably more than one family to a street but below the level where you get any clumping together on street corners.

Yes, that's the problem with the thresholds, how many English homeless are tolerated in the richer neighborhoods of London?
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...e-architecture

Do the homeless have muslim culture nowadays or is that part of the debate maybe missing the actual problem?

[Kadagar_AV]

Yeah, I'd like to answer...

But I will refrain from answering till the BR removes their rule of no race related issues. I mean, if I wanted to be PC I wouldn't hang in the backroom...

If that is the new standard, I quite frankly have better things to do.

[AE Bravo]

Evidently you have nothing better to talk about.

[Gilrandir]

Some mayor of a German city said he'd like to trade some eastern euros for more Syrian refugees if he could during a conference where everyone was asked to talk about problems openly.

Was he the mayor of an ex-DDR city?

[Hooahguy]

Yeah, I'd like to answer...

But I will refrain from answering till the BR removes their rule of no race related issues. I mean, if I wanted to be PC I wouldn't hang in the backroom...

If that is the new standard, I quite frankly have better things to do.

Tensions were getting too high for the Backroom and we needed to ease the tension. It is just a temporary measure until things cool off. End of story.

[Beskar]

It applies to new topics, you can discuss and keep immigration in this thread. If you couldn't, we would have locked this thread.

[HopAlongBunny]

Block settlement is not all bad.
The upside is it provides a safe familiar base for immigrants to acclimatize to the culture. It allows government the ability to target funding and programs designed to accelerate and ease the integration process.
The downside (or upside) is the creation of a "brokerage" of political and economic influence.
In party politics it is a rare organizer who will turn down an offer of 1000 votes delivered to a nomination or voting station.
Community leaders (who have mastered the language and norms) trade support for fulfillment or the promise of fulfillment of community needs.
The process is streamlined and fairly efficient but open to corruption. Some would argue that the very possibility of abuse, acts as further incentive to master the new environment.

[Montmorency]

Block settlement is not all bad.
The upside is it provides a safe familiar base for immigrants to acclimatize to the culture. It allows government the ability to target funding and programs designed to accelerate and ease the integration process.
The downside (or upside) is the creation of a "brokerage" of political and economic influence.
In party politics it is a rare organizer who will turn down an offer of 1000 votes delivered to a nomination or voting station.
Community leaders (who have mastered the language and norms) trade support for fulfillment or the promise of fulfillment of community needs.
The process is streamlined and fairly efficient but open to corruption. Some would argue that the very possibility of abuse, acts as further incentive to master the new environment.

This was a large part of the driver towards local Party Machines in United States history, until they were broken by post-Nixon electoral reforms.

Ironically, this corrupt system is what produced most of the great statesmen of post-Civil War America.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

sic

The point is that we already have enough to deal with in our own cities - we shouldn't be importing problems.

The point is also that you, and I, and yes Kadagar, are all enlightened humane people - the general population is not anywhere near as forgiving and should not be expected to be.

Block settlement is not all bad.
The upside is it provides a safe familiar base for immigrants to acclimatize to the culture. It allows government the ability to target funding and programs designed to accelerate and ease the integration process.
The downside (or upside) is the creation of a "brokerage" of political and economic influence.
In party politics it is a rare organizer who will turn down an offer of 1000 votes delivered to a nomination or voting station.
Community leaders (who have mastered the language and norms) trade support for fulfillment or the promise of fulfillment of community needs.
The process is streamlined and fairly efficient but open to corruption. Some would argue that the very possibility of abuse, acts as further incentive to master the new environment.

None of this sounds good, though.

In other news, thousands of people crossed into Croatia today and then hundreds breached the line of riot Police - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34283152

8,900 people in a day who refuse to obey the law and are willing to use violence to get what they feel they are entitled to?

Where's my Toga...