IMMIGRATION thread

[Sarmatian]

Hey, I'm not saying that all Africans or Muslims are bad. I'm saying that we have enough degenerates in our own countries to import more exotic flavours of degenerate from generally underdeveloped and backwards thinking countries.

Keep in mind that those exact things were cited when Bulgaria was entering EU.

Obviously of good will. But they also highlight the problem, a completily different way of looking at women.

Besided social media hysteria and "unnamed sources from the police" there is nothing that says it was done by refugees, or even Muslims.

[Montmorency]

A poor teacher is one who cannot make himself understood. You are a very poor teacher.

There are no great teachers, but there are great students.

[Beskar]

Keep in mind that those exact things were cited when Bulgaria was entering EU.

Actually, that is true, I remember it. You would think all Bulgarians and Romanians were itching to flood the British Isles and steal everything not bolted down to the floor from all the opinion pieces on the subject.

[Montmorency]

Actually, that is true, I remember it. You would think all Bulgarians and Romanians were itching to flood the British Isles and steal everything not bolted down to the floor from all the opinion pieces on the subject.

At the foreign office they had told me the English and French artillery worked much better than the Bulgarian, but Jimmie had been out there nine days and nights, in Balkan mountain wind and tropical clothing, and at the end the Bulgars had come “with the knife.” I do not imagine you can remember much difference between shrapnel and bayonets sometimes. Moreover, it is true that the effect of only the enemy’s shrapnel was apparent to Jimmie; but it is equally true that the Bulgarians are so inordinately proud of their prowess with the “knife” that they gladly belittle any other excellence of the army merely to enhance the glory of their bayonets. “Ein dummer Pat!” Herbst of the Intelligence Office said impatiently, when I repeated to him what Jimmie had said of the Bulgarian artillery.

Oh yeah, just the sort of people the UK needs more of.

[Fragony]

Besided social media hysteria and "unnamed sources from the police" there is nothing that says it was done by refugees, or even Muslims.

True, but it certainly looks like it. For now it's what is said for me

[Greyblades]

There are no great teachers, but there are great students.

[InsaneApache]

Something to ponder on...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Europe is going through a period of radical change, but it is facing this with a process of radical self-distraction. Unwilling to face up to our problems we obsess over the responses to those problems. There have been some startling recent examples.

As the whole world now knows, on New Year’s Eve in Cologne, dozens of German women were sexually assaulted, apparently by some of that country’s more recent arrivals. For days the media across Europe declined to even report the story. It was only because of new media that the story began to get out at all. Then when the media did get around to reporting the story they covered it in that now-familiar way which suggests their job is not so much to report the facts as to negotiate between the facts and their fear over how the general public might react to those facts. Perhaps we should be grateful that there is any coverage a week after the attacks. After all, it took more than a decade for 1500 rapes in the north of England to make much news.

Yesterday the Guardian (where any male doing anything is usually a demonstration of ‘rape culture’) finally ran a piece suggesting that perhaps we shouldn’t cover up actual, real rape-culture such as that in Cologne, conceding that it hadn’t helped much with Rotherham. The piece was predictably hailed as brave and controversial because today it has indeed become brave and controversial to report the facts. Thinking aloud about any of the repercussions of those facts, however, remains the pursuit only of a madman.

This is a shame, because some free thought and discussion about what is going on could have been useful at an earlier stage. Last year, when Angela Merkel flung open Germany’s borders anyone who said, ‘Are you sure you know what you’re doing?’ was shouted down with cries of ‘racist’. Then, after about a million more people had come into the country even Chancellor Merkel started to wonder who they all were and whether they had all the right Germanic ideas. One minister finally said that they weren’t keen on letting many more anti-Semites into Germany. And now in the wake of the New Year’s Eve attack some politicians are saying they don’t really want people who aren’t even up to speed with even last millennia’s views on women. Perhaps it is too late and German women will indeed have to follow the advice of the Mayor of Cologne and take more care when out on the streets (‘No skirts. No trousers. Have you considered this lovely burka madam?’) Or perhaps an intensive period of workshops with new arrivals will settle it all amicably and swiftly. I suppose we will just have to hope so. In the meantime it turns out that the German police have been caught mis-representing the facts about who was doing the New Year’s Eve raping., and so we are now in the far more dangerous place where lies become the preserve not only of the fourth estate, but of the state itself.

Over Christmas I read a new book by Tommy Robinson called ‘Enemy of the State’. This memoir by the founder and former leader of the English Defence League bears out what I wrote about Robinson a couple of years back when I interviewed him for the Spectator after he had left the EDL. In particular it seems clear from Tommy Robinson’s full account of his story that if the British police and others in authority had got a grip on Al-Muhajiroun and other Islamic extremists earlier on then nobody would ever have heard of the EDL or Tommy Robinson. The EDL always were a secondary problem – a reaction to a problem. But instead of dealing with the problem they were objecting to (Islamic fundamentalists having free reign to abuse British soldiers, just for starters) the full might of the state devoted itself to shutting down Tommy Robinson and the EDL: which is like trying to treat a disease-racked body by addressing a skin irritation.

As his memoir makes clear, from the moment that Robinson and the EDL emerged the entire force of the state came down upon their heads. Robinson’s home and the homes of his relatives were repeatedly raided by police. All their private papers and records were gone over repeatedly and eventually Robinson was charged and sent to prison in a mortgage fraud case. It is very clear to me – as I think it would be to anyone else considering his case – that although Robinson was obviously wrong to do what he did in the mortgage case it would never have come up, would never have been charged and would certainly never have gone to prison if he had not set up the EDL.

Now I didn’t agree with the EDL and do not like what they did. But the fact that the police and other authorities could get their leader into prison in such a manner showed a wildly skewed set of priorities. How many dodgy Muslim clerics and welfare-jihadists in the UK have got dodgy financial stuff in their background somewhere? Why can’t they be repeatedly sent in and out of prison on a whole range of trumped-up charges? Why did the police and Crown Prosecution Service not spend years crawling over every piece of paper kept by everyone around Al-Muhajiroun and the like? What seems clear from Robinson’s account of his life over recent years is that the authorities have used every power at their disposal not simply to stop his political activities but to shut him up. The impetus to do the same with the people he is objecting to meanwhile has simply been absent.

And now recent days have seen another example. In his book Robinson recounts an occasion while he was in prison where he was put in alongside a large number of Muslim extremists (including on one occasion a cell who were in prison for trying to kill him and others in the EDL). On pages 305-7 he describes one incident where he says that a Somali Muslim in prison had been persuaded by a Muslim gang leader to attack him. There was a fight. This was during one of Robinson’s last spells in prison. The authorities appear to have assured Robinson and his lawyers that no charges would be pending from this incident, which took place in 2014.

Then last week Robinson announced that he was founding Pegida UK (an offshoot of the German anti-Islamist movement) alongside former Labour candidate Anne-Marie Waters and Paul Weston. Two days later he was arrested on charges relating to the 2014 prison incident. I do not know all the facts here and I am sure there is much still to come out. But it would appear that the British police and others are working very hard to ensure that Robinson is not allowed to express his views on Islam and immigration and that they have pulled out this historical case in order to stop him from doing so. I hope that other journalists who care about the rule of law and free expression also look at this case, because it is extremely worrying. But I mention that case because it is a reminder that instinctive reaction to the Cologne case is symptomatic of a much wider problem. With Pegida protests in German today being fired on by police with water-cannons that problem of attacking the reaction rather than the problem (where were the water cannons on New Year’s Eve?) has rarely seemed starker.

But this is not only a police problem or a government problem: it is also a societal problem. This week saw the first anniversary of the Charlie Hebdo shootings, and one year after the day itself a man was shot dead while trying to storm a police station in Paris. Bad news stories like this from across the continent come in thick-and-fast these days. But what are people to do? Well one option would be to deal with the problem. Another is to partake in the sort of distraction offered by the folks of Twitter. In the wake of the latest Paris death they decided to amuse themselves by pretending that Donald Trump is so dumb that he thinks Paris is in Germany. Immediately after the latest Paris attack Trump sent out a tweet saying: ‘Man shot inside Paris police station. Just announced that terror threat is at highest level. Germany is a total mess – big crime. GET SMART!’

This was clearly referring to two separate problems. But the hashtag ‘#Paris Is In Germany’ trended all day. How hilarious! We don’t have to worry about all the troubles our continent because we have an American politician to laugh at.

Later this month the House of Commons will discuss the urgent issue of Mr Trump. This is because last month Trump said that he wanted to stop Muslim immigration into the US and added that Britain and Europe have a serious Muslim extremism problem. Because of this more than half a million people signed a petition calling for Trump to be barred from Britain. This now has to be debated in Parliament and doubtless all those MPs who rarely do much about problems they could deal with will grandstand their opposition to a foreign politician who doesn’t care what they think. In the last week we have been reminded that the British government not only doesn’t know who is coming into our country, but doesn’t even know who is leaving either. Still, it’s all fine so long as we divert ourselves by talking Trump. Perhaps this will be the European habit for some time to come. Perhaps it will finally do for us.

Millions of people whose identities and beliefs are unknown have been let into our continent. Many who have been here for a few years continue to present challenges which are by no means minimal. There seems to be a belief that so long as we have got Katie Hopkins, Donald Trump or Tommy Robinson to kick around then we can focus our energies on ignoring the problem.

Of course all one can do is warn. But it seems to me that, if we keep distracting ourselves from the problem and beating up on every response to it, then this continent of ours is going to go very bad, very fast.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/01...-donald-trump/

I mentioned in a post I made in the video thread that I now have misgivings about how Robinson has been portrayed and treated. Whatever you do, don't tell the truth or you'll end up eating porridge.

[Noncommunist]

If you guys prevent Trump from being elected, there might be a greater chance that the Muslims in Britain will move to America. Conversely, if he does get elected, American Muslims may have a far greater incentive to move to Britain.

[Fragony]

1000 incidents reported by now in Germany, Sweden had some trouble as well, so did Switzerland. Will the childless mutti see a pattern or is it NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN



No childless Mutti, this is the reality'

No, it can't be true, it isn't possible

In your heart you know it to be true'

NEEEEEEEEEEEEIN

[Sarmatian]

Which 1000 incidents? Where? When? Why? Who? How?

Oh, look, it's evening and the sun is coming down. Kill the Muslims, it's their fault!!!!!!!!

[Beskar]

Must be awful to live in a mental world which is static and never changing, compared to a world that is constantly in motion outside the window. Feeling yourself being lost in the currents and out of touch with things around you.

[InsaneApache]

Must be awful to live in a mental world which is static and never changing, compared to a world that is constantly in motion outside the window. Feeling yourself being lost in the currents and out of touch with things around you.

Like a moslem?

[rory_20_uk]

Like a moslem?

Like some Muslims. And some Jews, Christians, Hindus etc.

The main problem is that there are more of the Muslims causing damage in Europe whereas the extreme Jews restrict themselves mainly to killing palestinians, Hindus killing Muslims in the Far East and the Christians abortion doctors.

[Fragony]

Which 1000 incidents? Where? When? Why? Who? How?

Oh, look, it's evening and the sun is coming down. Kill the Muslims, it's their fault!!!!!!!!

Completily normal reactions wiith exclamations marks, thanks

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Like some Muslims. And some Jews, Christians, Hindus etc.

The main problem is that there are more of the Muslims causing damage in Europe whereas the extreme Jews restrict themselves mainly to killing palestinians, Hindus killing Muslims in the Far East and the Christians abortion doctors.

Thing is the Muslims who cuase the problems are too often those raised in Europe - in a relatively stable and secure environment. "Poverty" in Britain doesn't mean the same as "Poverty" in India.

It's a simple fact that none of the traditional radicalising pressures are present in the UK, which is to say excess male population, abject poverty, political repression etc. Even so it seems to be relatively easy to take Muslims, or even non Muslims, and turn them into radical Jihadists.

By contrast it is relatively unknown for radical Christians to set bombs or commit murder. Admittedly, there are a few cranks but they are a minuscule minority compared to the number leaving Europe and the US to join the Islamic State.

[Viking]

I also agree that it would be much better if criminals had the word "criminal" in easily-readable letters on their forehead, maybe we can soon make that happen through genetic modification.

Comparing the frequency of criminal acts between different demographics or focusing on the individual perpetrators can be very insightful, but also very misleading if not supplemented with other perspectives and facts.

A lot of the extreme antisocial behaviour that has been perpetrated by first or second generation immigrants is often surplus.

That is to say that with the attacks e.g. now most recently in Paris, we cannot realistically assume that some ethnic French people saw the attacks and said "damn, we cannot go on our killing spree now after all this happened", such that we get 130 - 130 = 0 extra deaths relative to a zero-immigration scenario. Nor do we have much of a reason to assume that if no Muslim had ever migrated to France, native French would have come up with a reason to massacre 130 people that they can not come up with now (note how frequent school shootings are in the US despite the significant amount of interethnic violence present in the country).

We cannot realistically assume, either, that 130 people would have died instead in other events in France if the Paris attacks had not happened. Those 130 deaths are very likely an unwelcome bonus.

Rather, we tend to get a double whammy where we also have natives attacking immigrants or people who support massive immigration; so we do not only have to worry about excess violence from radical immigrants, but also from radical natives.

As for the attacks in Köln, these kind of public incidents are extremely rare in the West nowadays, AFAIK; certainly so given the scale. So as far as public sexual assaults go, there is much reason to believe that these attacks are in excess as well.

IIRC, most sexual assaults do not happen in public; but the recent perpetrators in Köln may well be repeat offenders who also commit similar crimes more privately (or, equivalently, they only carried out the attacks because the women were outgroup); such that in sum we may still end up with a surplus of antisocial behaviour here thanks to immigration.

[Pannonian]

Thing is the Muslims who cuase the problems are too often those raised in Europe - in a relatively stable and secure environment. "Poverty" in Britain doesn't mean the same as "Poverty" in India.

It's a simple fact that none of the traditional radicalising pressures are present in the UK, which is to say excess male population, abject poverty, political repression etc. Even so it seems to be relatively easy to take Muslims, or even non Muslims, and turn them into radical Jihadists.

By contrast it is relatively unknown for radical Christians to set bombs or commit murder. Admittedly, there are a few cranks but they are a minuscule minority compared to the number leaving Europe and the US to join the Islamic State.

The firsters are mostly happy to live here and adapt their lives to the established culture. It's the seconds who cause trouble, looking for a more radical version of the culture that their parents were happy to leave behind.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

PVC is correct here. People who go to prison on rape-charges lie and say they are in for murder, not to be 'harder', but because there is a very strong taboo against it. The way it has been explained to me in the past is that people are in prison for crimes against society, they either crimes of passion, or crimes against property, or gang related. These prisoners are still people and all have families back at home, so when a rapist or child molester comes, it isn't just some guy who stole a TV, or killed someone they had a grudge with, but these are people who preys on their sisters and mothers, or who would prey on their children, nephews and nieces. So to these prisoners, the rapists and molesters are viewed as the ultimate scum of society.

An addendum to this - we spend millions every years protecting rapists and child molesters inside prison.

The reason?

Well - simply put, if the other prisoners look down on you for killing your wife a good way to mitigate some of that is to "execute" a "nonce".

The irony being that whilst many in the UK would probably call this Karma (not publicly, of course) we can't allow these monsters to be killed in prison because that's not the sentence handed down and letting it happen would make a mockery of justice.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

A couple of articles from the Independent:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a6800666.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a6804946.html

The second one suggest that there have now been over two hundred complaints of sexual assault, and over 500 criminal complaints in all.

Reportedly 18 of the 31 men detained were asylum seekers.

If it's true there have been so few arrested then there must be something rotten at the heart of the local Police. Even disregarding the sexual assaults that number is woeful when compared with something like the London riots which saw roughly 2,000 people arrested within a similar time frame.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_E...Race_relations

"By 15 August 2011 around 3,100 people had been arrested, of whom over 1,100 had appeared in court.[13] On 25 August the BBC reported that more than 2,000 people had been arrested in connection with the disorder in London."

"By August 2012, 1292 rioters had been handed custodial sentences totalling 1,800 years at 16.8 months on an average."

[Myth]

Keep in mind that those exact things were cited when Bulgaria was entering EU.

Yeah? Some UK politicians still repeat this stuff. However, actual ethnic Bulgarians emigrate to work and live a better life. The only ones who beg, steal, pickpocket and prostitute themselves are of a certain ethnic minority and are Bulgarians only by virtue of their identity card. That same minority gives Romanians a similarly bad reputation.

The same minority has its own isolated subculture within any host country and is extremely resistent to integration. Many of them are muslim, preffering to call themselves muslims, turks or anything other than Bulgarian. They don't speak Bulgarian in their day-to-day life either.

On the other hand, many thousands of promising students emigrate to study and work in Germany, Denmark and other more developed countries. Many of our doctors leave their practice here for greener pastures as well. Less educated Bulgarians go to pick oranges, take care of the elderly, work fields or wash dishes but they make it and they do it through honest labour.

So yes, call me racist, but the only one who would deny these facts is someone who has only watched Disney's "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" and thinks Esmeralda is an accurate representative of said minority.

And before someone takes up late Hore Tore's mantle and tells me that we suck because we can't integrate them: the west can't integrate them either. The practice of giving them free welfare and allowing them to parasite on society has done nothing good for them. It's the exact same issue as with the africans who come and create ghettoes in western cities and only go to collect their wellfare checks.

[Husar]

It's not so much a rotten police but rotten politics.
During normal days they are staffed with about ten people at the train station, that day they has 55.
That's the federal police, but the police in general is understaffed unless they prepare for big events by asking for support in advance.
Now unless they should use fortune tellers, they could not quite expect this to happen, could they?

I also heard that people could only be sent back for crimes that have a minimum sentence of three years in prison.
As of this year they seemingly changed it to one year minimum sentence, but that still allows for a lot of theft etc. without any effect on their asylum application...

[Fragony]

Regular police couldn't help it, but isn't a riott-squad supposed to called upon 24/7, who decides that in Germany?

edit, looks like exreme-right found a perfect excuse to attack innocent people. Could you please just don't do that ktxbye

[Husar]

Regular police couldn't help it, but isn't a riott-squad supposed to called upon 24/7, who decides that in Germany?

I don't think so, they have these ready-teams which operate within an entire state IIRC and they call them in advance, e.g. for football games or planned demonstrations, then they show up in force. I assume around NYE most of them were out celebrating themselves, police presence was increased but obviously not enough to deal with an unplanned event of this size. Police have been complaining for a while though that they're overworked just taking care of the regular sports events and so on though, many of them seem to have a lot of extra-hours that they can't take off because there'd be noone to replace them. It sounds a lot like politicians have cut the funding too much to allow the police to maintain sufficient personnel.

edit, looks like exreme-right found a perfect excuse to attack innocent people. Could you please just don't do that ktxbye

Yes, these pansies claim they want to protect Germans or Germany or whatever and then go beat up the most harmless innocent immigrants they can find, little girls from Africa or students or so, people who haven't really done anything wrong. They just create more victims instead of facing actually criminal immigrants (which would still be wrong since the police should deal with them but more understandable), but I guess those would put up too much of a fight for those knuckleheads...

[Sarmatian]

Yeah? Some UK politicians still repeat this stuff. However, actual ethnic Bulgarians emigrate to work and live a better life. The only ones who beg, steal, pickpocket and prostitute themselves are of a certain ethnic minority and are Bulgarians only by virtue of their identity card.

So, No True Scotsman, or in this case, a No True Bulgarian fallacy?

Seen plenty of ethnic Bulgarians involved in begging, stealing, prostitution, organized crime and crime in general. Don't even bother trying to sell that to me.

[Husar]

The real problem is that all these Balkan-people look the same to me.
How am I supposed to tell a Gypsy (aka Sinti and Roma, but I'm being super edgy today ) from a Bulgarian, a Serbian, an Arab, a Persian, an Indian or a North-African?
And then he's probably Pakistani anyway.

I guess that is how the "protectors of the fatherland" (read: Nazis) ended up beating up a 13 year-old tunesian girl instead of actual troublemakers like themselves...

[Gilrandir]

This is the problem with Germans. But Balkaners (e.g. Sarmatian) know an ethnic Bulgarian from an ethnic Albanian/Romanian/Greek/Macedonean/Gypsy/Turk at first sight.

[Fragony]

The real problem is that all these Balkan-people look the same to me.
How am I supposed to tell a Gypsy (aka Sinti and Roma, but I'm being super edgy today ) from a Bulgarian, a Serbian, an Arab, a Persian, an Indian or a North-African?
And then he's probably Pakistani anyway.

I guess that is how the "protectors of the fatherland" (read: Nazis) ended up beating up a 13 year-old tunesian girl instead of actual troublemakers like themselves...

That is pretty easy for me, I see it immediatly, features vary

[Viking]

Latest official report:

Cologne attackers were of migrant origin - minister

Nineteen individuals are currently under investigation by the state police in connection with the attacks, NRW's interior ministry says in a report (in German), none of them German nationals.

Those 19 suspects include 14 men from Morocco and Algeria. Ten of the suspects are asylum seekers, nine of whom arrived in Germany after September 2015.

The other nine are possibly in Germany illegally, the interior ministry says.

Monday's report into the attacks in Cologne says that the combination of group sexual violence with robbery had not previously been seen in Germany.

It notes that similar crimes took place in other parts of Germany on the 31 December, including in Hamburg.

The report describes a modus operandi known as "taharrush gamea" in Arabic, meaning group sexual harassment in crowds, and compares it to incidents reported in Cairo's Tahrir Square at the time of the Egyptian revolution.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's not so much a rotten police but rotten politics.
During normal days they are staffed with about ten people at the train station, that day they has 55.
That's the federal police, but the police in general is understaffed unless they prepare for big events by asking for support in advance.
Now unless they should use fortune tellers, they could not quite expect this to happen, could they?

I also heard that people could only be sent back for crimes that have a minimum sentence of three years in prison.
As of this year they seemingly changed it to one year minimum sentence, but that still allows for a lot of theft etc. without any effect on their asylum application...

What I read is that Merkel is now proposing to change the law, but it was still three years minimum tariff to get your application rejected, and only if you're not in danger if sent back.

In practice that means nobody will get an application rejected that wouldn't be rejected anyway.

Also, you have a pitiful number of Police, we would have been able to deploy double that and virtually no cops get New Year's Day off because they're needed to Police!

[Fragony]

This? http://www.thelocal.se/20160111/poli...-teen-festival