IMMIGRATION thread

[Husar]

Could you enlighten me on the Swedish involvement in the Middle East? Since we were also blessed with a suicide bomber.

http://www.thelocal.se/20151004/300-...join-extremist

[Snowhobbit]

http://www.thelocal.se/20151004/300-...join-extremist

Right, but this is long after our suicide bomber, and I believe he would be pleased by that development ;)

And to add to the post above, our so called 13 year old actually managed to come in 2nd in the 60meter sprint. Honestly I'd be ashamed if I couldn't beat 13 year olds in any kind of physical competition.

[Sarmatian]

So which were the relevant organisations for the 7/7 and subsequent attacks? What are their demands?

Well, if MI6 has problems reaching conclusions based on the available intelligence, you really need to question how are your taxes spent.

Your democratically-elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters. Until we feel security you will be our targets and until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people we will not stop this fight.

What have you witnessed now is only the beginning of a string of attacks that will continue and become stronger until you pull your forces out of Afghanistan and Iraq. And until you stop your financial and military support to America and Israel.

The relevant organization is al-Qaeda in this case, btw.

Here you have everything you need. The reason why, warning of future attacks, what to do to stop it and who to talk to about it.

[Pannonian]

Well, if MI6 has problems reaching conclusions based on the available intelligence, you really need to question how are your taxes spent.

The relevant organization is al-Qaeda in this case, btw.

Here you have everything you need. The reason why, warning of future attacks, what to do to stop it and who to talk to about it.

Do you agree that he believes in the point being made?

[Sarmatian]

Do you agree that he believes in the point being made?

It doesn't matter if he personally believes it or not. The second part of the quote was from Zawahiri, and added later. You have Al Qaeda planning the attack, recruiting the attackers, instructing them how to pull it off and probably giving the order to execute it. Then you have the then second-in-command, now leader of Al Qaeda explaining the political aspect.

It is not the issue of no political goal, it is that the political goal is unacceptable to the western countries.

[Pannonian]

It doesn't matter if he personally believes it or not. The second part of the quote was from Zawahiri, and added later. You have Al Qaeda planning the attack, recruiting the attackers, instructing them how to pull it off and probably giving the order to execute it. Then you have the then second-in-command, now leader of Al Qaeda explaining the political aspect.

It is not the issue of no political goal, it is that the political goal is unacceptable to the western countries.

More importantly, "Your democratically-elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world." If a born Briton can regard a foreign people as "my people", legitimising his act of violence against the country he was born and raised in, why the hell should we bring in yet more of "these people"? I say, give him what he wants, total withdrawal from the Muslim world, and at the same time a total embargo on the admission of more Muslims into the UK.

Except, of course, Al-Qaeda currently seem to think that they were wrong in prioritising the pursuit of violence against the west, allowing ISIS to trump them. No matter, give them what they want, even if they regret demanding it. Let's see what their next excuse is for bombing the west, and whether their apologists continue to blame the west for everything we do and don't do.

[Brenus]

"So which were the relevant organisations for the 7/7 and subsequent attacks? What are their demands?"
From Osama Bin Laden:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/200...24/theobserver

Clear enough, I would say...

[Slyspy]

Why can't we just put them in gas chambers instead? Surely that is cheaper?

Or you know, there could be other solutions that maintain human dignity while not drowning our systems and exposing the population to something that they do not want.

If you have people arriving on your doorstep you either let them in and help them if they need it or shut them out and force them away if they persist. Those are your choices.

[Fragony]

If you have people arriving on your doorstep you either let them in and help them if they need it or shut them out and force them away if they persist. Those are your choices.

Option number two, if it's just of no use to try it will be on the social-networks economic-migrants use in notime. I completly agree with Pannonian, if you are safe and travel further you are no longer a refugee but a migrant, and that must stop.

[Pannonian]

"So which were the relevant organisations for the 7/7 and subsequent attacks? What are their demands?"
From Osama Bin Laden:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/200...24/theobserver

Clear enough, I would say...

See my subsequent reply to Sarmatian. By pointing out the message from MSK (I refrain from posting his full name), he just confirms my feelings that that community will tend to produce people who will de-integrate from British society, to the point of pursuing violence against the country that raised them. I don't want any more Muslims entering the UK, whatever the arguments about economics or humane treatment. They're not worth the hassle.

[Husar]

Option number two, if it's just of no use to try it will be on the social-networks economic-migrants use in notime. I completly agree with Pannonian, if you are safe and travel further you are no longer a refugee but a migrant, and that must stop.

You always talk about how many people are not safe in German refugee camps. What makes you think they would be safe in refugee camps elsewhere? Or please just expand on what exactly you mean.

[Fragony]

You always talk about how many people are not safe in German refugee camps. What makes you think they would be safe in refugee camps elsewhere? Or please just expand on what exactly you mean.

They don't come to Germany with the intention to go home. If you travel any further than the first safe country you stop being a refugee and become a migrant.

[Husar]

They don't come to Germany with the intention to go home. If you travel any further than the first safe country you stop being a refugee and become a migrant.

Yeah, well, if I told you you can live in a trashcan here and return to live in a toilet in five years, or you could try to go get a good life in a faraway land, what would you prefer? If money is their sole motivation, how come they didn't all come before there was a war?

[Pannonian]

Yeah, well, if I told you you can live in a trashcan here and return to live in a toilet in five years, or you could try to go get a good life in a faraway land, what would you prefer? If money is their sole motivation, how come they didn't all come before there was a war?

And if Britain is any indicator, you can leave for a faraway land to make your fortune, be welcomed by the locals, integrate yourself into British society, raise a family that's as inculcated in local norms as any other British family. And your children decide this isn't for them, decide to identify themselves with the Muslim nation that their parents left rather than the British nation that raised them, and become a jihadi to kill abroad or even in Britain. And aside from those who take violent action, there are quite a few who cheer them on, even though they too were born in and raised in Britain.

For every other community, you can expect a process of integration, but once that process is done, future generations are accepted as indelibly British. Only among the Muslim community do you have such a proliferation of de-integration, so that at no point can you be confident that integration is done, and there is a good chance that those who de-integrate themselves will turn to violent action against Britain and Britons. And such is the loyalty of British Muslims to Britain, that they're more likely to fight for ISIS than to fight for Britain.

Nope, as MSK says, his people is not the British people. We don't need any more of his people here.

[Fragony]

Yeah, well, if I told you you can live in a trashcan here and return to live in a toilet in five years, or you could try to go get a good life in a faraway land, what would you prefer? If money is their sole motivation, how come they didn't all come before there was a war?

Because they weren't invited to come en masse back then

[Gilrandir]

Since Russian involvement in Syria, there has been a quite a few terror attacks on Russian soil or on Russian citizens abroad.

The number of attacks was few, but what about the number of victims? The Russian plane that fell in Egypt would make up for a dozen terror attacks victim-wise.

[Sarmatian]

And such is the loyalty of British Muslims to Britain, that they're more likely to fight for ISIS than to fight for Britain.

That is actually not true.

There are some 650 Muslims in British Armed Forces and some 450 British Muslims fighting in Syria, in all groups, although the estimation is that the majority of those 450 are indeed with ISIS.

There have been more British Muslims in Syria but they became disillusioned with various opposition forces who either collaborated with fundamentalists or were in fact fundamentalists themselves.

Don't think every single person who went to Syria is a traitor.

The number of attacks was few, but what about the number of victims? The Russian plane that fell in Egypt would make up for a dozen terror attacks victim-wise.

"quite a few" meaning a respectable number. Russia wasn't a target of Middle Eastern terrorists before Russia started meddling in Syria.

Point being, it contradicts the notion that terrorism isn't connected to a political goal.

[Snowhobbit]

That is actually not true.

There are some 650 Muslims in British Armed Forces and some 450 British Muslims fighting in Syria, in all groups, although the estimation is that the majority of those 450 are indeed with ISIS.

There have been more British Muslims in Syria but they became disillusioned with various opposition forces who either collaborated with fundamentalists or were in fact fundamentalists themselves.

Don't think every single person who went to Syria is a traitor.



"quite a few" meaning a respectable number. Russia wasn't a target of Middle Eastern terrorists before Russia started meddling in Syria.

Point being, it contradicts the notion that terrorism isn't connected to a political goal.

Do I need to boil my previous post down so that it does not contain as much information in response for you to address it?

[Pannonian]

That is actually not true.

There are some 650 Muslims in British Armed Forces and some 450 British Muslims fighting in Syria, in all groups, although the estimation is that the majority of those 450 are indeed with ISIS.

There have been more British Muslims in Syria but they became disillusioned with various opposition forces who either collaborated with fundamentalists or were in fact fundamentalists themselves.

Don't think every single person who went to Syria is a traitor.

They're not traitors. To be a traitor to Britain, you have to be British, then betray Britain. As your earlier quote illustrates, British Muslims are Muslims, not British. Even if they were born in Britain, if they are Muslim, then their people is the Muslim nation, not Britain.

[Sarmatian]

Do I need to boil my previous post down so that it does not contain as much information in response for you to address it?

What previous post?

They're not traitors. To be a traitor to Britain, you have to be British, then betray Britain. As your earlier quote illustrates, British Muslims are Muslims, not British. Even if they were born in Britain, if they are Muslim, then their people is the Muslim nation, not Britain.

That is a few Muslims, not all Muslims.

You'd have a much better case calling Scots traitors, as almost a half of them don't consider themselves British.

[Fragony]

Sarmatarian has a point though, those who went to Syria aren't necesarily traiters, a substantial amount went to fight Assad when IS didn't exist at the time. It's different of course for those who go now. There are Dutch ex-military militias who fight alongside the Kurds, traitors as well, Turkey is a Nato-partner after all and they kinda dislike Kurds. I say go militias

[Pannonian]

What previous post?



That is a few Muslims, not all Muslims.

You'd have a much better case calling Scots traitors, as almost a half of them don't consider themselves British.

Except I'm no longer calling the Muslims traitors. They're not British, by their own admission, so they can't be traitors to Britain. What the Muslims demonstrate is that, unlike nearly every other immigrant community, there is no reliable process of integration for them. However well any individual or generation integrates, there is a high likelihood that somewhere along the line there will be someone who decides they are Muslims first and British nowhere, and that this justifies violence against the British people. Which, since they had a birthright of British citizenship, they can more easily carry out. Same problem with the French apparently, who have also produced their own homegrown jihadis. In the light of that, there is no good reason to admit yet more Muslims into the UK, whatever guilting arguments people want to impress on us. Accept the current situation as a loss, and stop its further spread from abroad. Syrians shouldn't go through the normal admissions process. They shouldn't be admitted, full stop.

[Snowhobbit]

What previous post?

See below.

In the form that Germany is in it and that free movement is allowed for all workers, it does indeed date back to the 60's. Of course it does not exist within the EU framework before 1992, since the EU was not founded until 1992. But we are not discussing EU but free movement of people.

There is most certainly a whole lot of research on employment numbers of the two respective groups, I would suggest you look harder (for example at OECD). From these numbers, and the numbers of people on welfare and the cost of that, we can extrapolate whether people are a cost or a gain. The study that you refer to clumps all migration into one. There is a huge difference between a German engineer and a Polish plumber, let alone between a Syrian dentist and a Syrian farmer, in terms of employability, capacity to support oneself and generate taxes, integration into society, criminality and other costs, usage of welfare etc. To clump all into one is highly disingenuous. For reference of how to not do the reports, you can look up Sandviken immigration report. I would reccommend among others Tino Sanadaji for a hard economic science look at the thing.

Of course Googling crime+immigrants will turn up a whole lot of crap, that is the nature of the beast. In 2005 I think it was (before the government decided it was not a good idea to show a public account of this figure) BRÅ (Crime prevention council) produced a report on the over representation of immigrants compared to natives in crime, dividing it up by crime categories for native, first and second generation immigrants, as well as immigrants by region as a whole. These numbers were adjusted for socio-economic factors, but all the same the over representation among crimes, especially the really bad ones like aggravated assault, murder and rape was quite large. Today we no longer get public numbers on this, but Swedes are now a minority in jail doing hard time. But yeah there are people screaming bloody murder for no reason on the internet and certain groups are painted bad as a whole. I would like to add that even with the massive over representation something like 98% of immigrants are not criminals.

I'm glad you asked. We were looking at an influx of about half a million per year minimum. The reception systems were unable to handle it and we were having people sleeping in tents in winter (heated mind you), near a thousand people were housed in a convention hall where they had all of 12 bathrooms to share. We have rampant crimes being committed in the centers, a large spike in public sexual assault. Our swimming pools have become havens for sexual crimes and I would question the sanity of anyone bringing their female children or even adult female relatives or friends to such an establishment. We have completely failed at checking the age of so called unaccompanied "minors" (not that all of them are not minors, but possibly a majority of them are adults). We've had cases of children being raped by the pretend children in the homes. We've had a man of 40+ years old being treated as a child. We've had a female worker in one of the homes be stabbed to death as she intervened to save the life of a probably actually child being assaulted to a "child". We spend more on these children than the entire Afghan state budget, including foreign aid. Our social services are unable to meet the demands that the law places upon them and have started reporting themselves for this. We are lacking about 1 million homes nationwide, today. The absolute majority of the people who have arrived are educated for about 5 years on average, in a highly developed and demanding economy where we have taxed the smaller easier jobs out of the market decades ago. We are reaching levels where the housing standard might return to what it was 100 years ago (no internal plumbing or heating), in order to provide a roof over the head for people.

Oh and we are likely going to have to send about 80,000 people home due to their application being denied next year. Last year police had the task to send about 5,000 home but only managed 4,000. In smaller cities police (police nation-wide are used to enforce the border controls) lack the resources to investigate murder and attempted murder. We have street gangs of North African "children" who basically get to act outside the law, openly engage in drug trade less than a kilometer from parliament and frequently gang-raping women. Police are unable to prosecute them due to their claimed age, and when they do get caught they are often out within a week, having escaped from the foster home in which they were placed.

I think that about sums it up, but someone can correct me if I've missed something.

This previous post

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

And if Britain is any indicator, you can leave for a faraway land to make your fortune, be welcomed by the locals, integrate yourself into British society, raise a family that's as inculcated in local norms as any other British family. And your children decide this isn't for them, decide to identify themselves with the Muslim nation that their parents left rather than the British nation that raised them, and become a jihadi to kill abroad or even in Britain. And aside from those who take violent action, there are quite a few who cheer them on, even though they too were born in and raised in Britain.

For every other community, you can expect a process of integration, but once that process is done, future generations are accepted as indelibly British. Only among the Muslim community do you have such a proliferation of de-integration, so that at no point can you be confident that integration is done, and there is a good chance that those who de-integrate themselves will turn to violent action against Britain and Britons. And such is the loyalty of British Muslims to Britain, that they're more likely to fight for ISIS than to fight for Britain.

Nope, as MSK says, his people is not the British people. We don't need any more of his people here.

I'm sorry but.....this is just rabid BS. I live in Leeds. We have a large Muslim population here, Muslims come from surrounding areas to work here (Bradford, Keighley, Huddersfield etc.). I know a lot of Muslims and, there are not "quite a few" who "cheer them on". They go to mosque, a number of them take their own annual leave to do charitable work. They are, in other ways, remarkably like the other human beings I live and work alongside. Who'd have thunk it, eh? That they might be like...people.

I don't see the menace you describe, it has no reality.

[Sarmatian]

See below.
This previous post

What's there to address? After the first part you agreed that the number of immigrants who become criminals is minute, which isn't something I disagree with.

In the second part you mention a few instances of the system failing. I've never argued that it was perfect, but like with all other systems, efforts should be taken to minimize the flaws, not simply shut it all down.

[Greyblades]

I'm sorry but.....this is just rabid BS. I live in Leeds. We have a large Muslim population here, Muslims come from surrounding areas to work here (Bradford, Keighley, Huddersfield etc.). I know a lot of Muslims and, there are not "quite a few" who "cheer them on". They go to mosque, a number of them take their own annual leave to do charitable work. They are, in other ways, remarkably like the other human beings I live and work alongside. Who'd have thunk it, eh? That they might be like...people.

I don't see the menace you describe, it has no reality.

"I cannot see god therefore he doesnt exist."

Tell me how many of the muslims you know are poor, how many are migrants, first generation, second? How many of them have you gone out and asked if they celebrate? How many of them would answer you truthfully if they did?

I dare say all of us british orgahs have similar experiences of british muslims, most of them are integrated fine and even ones that are not are sure to put on a brave face while in public but it is fallacious in the extreme to dismiss the existance of a undercurrent of sympathy just because you personally, as an outsider looking in, have not knowingly encountered it.

[Sarmatian]

"I cannot see god therefore he doesnt exist."

Tell me how many of the muslims you know are poor, how many are migrants, first generation, second? How many of them have you gone out and asked if they celebrate? How many of them would answer you truthfully if they did?

I dare say all of us british orgahs have similar experiences of british muslims, most of them are integrated fine and even ones that are not are sure to put on a brave face while in public but it is fallacious in the extreme to dismiss the existance of a undercurrent of sympathy just because you personally, as an outsider looking in, have not knowingly encountered it.

You actually wrote a post that makes sense.

With Snowhobbit educating people in law in the other thread, something bad is gonna happen tomorrow, I know it.

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

"I cannot see god therefore he doesnt exist."

Tell me how many of the muslims you know are poor, how many are migrants, first generation, second? How many of them have you gone out and asked if they celebrate? How many of them would answer you truthfully if they did?

I dare say all of us british orgahs have similar experiences of british muslims, most of them are integrated fine and even ones that are not are sure to put on a brave face while in public but it is fallacious in the extreme to dismiss the existance of a undercurrent of sympathy just because you personally, as an outsider looking in, have not knowingly encountered it.

I see you are shifting your argument somewhat now. Now it's only particular Muslims we need to watch or....they're lying to me. Yes, that's it. They're just very good liars. Those perfectly normal family lives, relationships we discuss.....? All just made up to cover their bomb-making and arms smuggling. Why those dirty scoundrels....why I oughta...!!



Let me remind you of what I was responding to:

"...What the Muslims demonstrate is that, unlike nearly every other immigrant community, there is no reliable process of integration for them. However well any individual or generation integrates, there is a high likelihood that somewhere along the line there will be someone who decides they are Muslims first and British nowhere, and that this justifies violence against the British people...."

"What the Muslims demonstrate"...you know like all of them, or the vast majority..."..there is no reliable process of integration for them..."

Rabid, vacuous nonsense.

[Greyblades]

I'm shifting my argument from one I have not made? Are you incapable of differentiating one speaker from another?

I was slapping you down for making a stupid argument, I dont really care what you were responding to, the fact remains the average man will rarely voice an opinion he holds that is deemed unpopular or even treasonous by society save behind closed doors. The lack of anyone openly admitting to such views withing your narrow perview does in no way make the presence of such sentiments an impossibility.

You actually wrote a post that makes sense.

Little is more worrysome than the madman declaring one sane, Nor anything more releiving than a sane man turned clear.

[Husar]