IMMIGRATION thread

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

I'm shifting my argument from one I have not made? Are you incapable of differentiating one speaker from another?

I was slapping you down for making a stupid argument, I dont really care what you were responding to, the fact remains the average man will rarely voice an opinion he holds that is deemed unpopular or even treasonous by society save behind closed doors. The lack of anyone openly admitting to such views withing your narrow perview does in no way make the presence of such sentiments an impossibility.

My apologies, both to you and Pannonian. So...they're all liars? That's all you've got? I should ignore my own experience and believe the hype. All these Muslims...they're a menace, they can't be integrated ('into decent society' is the undertow dragging this argument along). I know the people I speak of. I am more extreme in my views than they are. I feel sympathy for those poor buggers being bombed out of their homes. The majority of the people in this country didn't want our government to increase their misery. They took no notice. Just as they took no notice of the marches and demonstrations against invading Iraq. They went ahead and did it anyway.

The majority of Muslims in the UK (the VAST majority) have no time for the Salafist, Wahabist 'Islam' proclaimed by ISIS..they are outright disdainful of and disgusted by it. Because these people (because that is what they are) are appalled by what is going on in 'our name' does not make them terrorist sympathisers, any more than my being appalled by what is going on in 'our name' makes me a terrorist sympathiser.

Your (and Pannonian's) references to the state of the Muslim communities in our country are wholly divergent from reality.

[Snowhobbit]

Your (and Pannonian's) references to the state of the Muslim communities in our country are wholly divergent from reality.

Are you looking into a mirror again?

[Snowhobbit]

What's there to address? After the first part you agreed that the number of immigrants who become criminals is minute, which isn't something I disagree with.

In the second part you mention a few instances of the system failing. I've never argued that it was perfect, but like with all other systems, efforts should be taken to minimize the flaws, not simply shut it all down.

Do note that the over representation after adjusting for socio-economic factors is often more than 4 times as high within the immigrant group as a whole, and that native Swedes are a minority (!) in our jails. The employement figures for refugees is that after 8 years only 25% of them are full-time employed. It puts a massive strain on an extensive welfare state like Sweden which is primarily supported by the notion that people who can work will work to help provide a good life for those who cannot work. Not for those who will not work. Add to this that a large portion of our welfare system is highly accessible even for people who are in the country illegally.

It is not a mention of "a few systems failing" it is a system nearing and in some cases jumping over the breaking point. Criminal gangs roaming on our major streets without the police being able to stop them is not a minor issue of systems failure, nor is the massive waste of tax money throughout the refugee system (for example due to there not being enough homes that the municipalities have available they have to contract private companies for 2-3x the cost if it had been done by the municipality). This is not even mentioning the extra 800,000 people who will get Malaria, TB or AIDS thanks to us cutting our foreign aid including already pledged donations to NGOs, and a further 20,000 dead from these diseases. We spend more on the processing and intake of refugees in a year than the entire UN refugee budget!

Lastly, it is common courtesy to respond to an answer to a question which you have posed.

[Husar]

The employement figures for refugees is that after 8 years only 25% of them are full-time employed. It puts a massive strain on an extensive welfare state like Sweden which is primarily supported by the notion that people who can work will work to help provide a good life for those who cannot work. Not for those who will not work.

While that is certainly a problem, it is problematic to state that they just don't want to work. It may also be that they cannot work because there are not enough jobs for them. Sweden is a small country and if you add so many people over a relatively short period of time, you cannot guarantee that the economy will just scale up and provide as many jobs. Then you may have employers who would prefer to hire Swedes and so on and you end up with a high unemployment rate among the newcomers that does not necessarily reflect their willingness to work.

Edit: Also news about Morocco. The country agreed to a new system to send Moroccan citizens back there. Around 10.000 apparently came last year, mostly among the refugees with fake Syrian passports. The acceptance rate of moroccan asylum applicants is apparently only 3.7%. They want to identify them as Moroccan citizens via their fingerprints which are saved in Morocco for biometric passports.
Source (german): http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/de-...ghreb-105.html

People are also storming the border in Macedonia, have to say it is a bit strange to say you run from a war and then pick fights with police and border guards and storm wire fences. Although it seems most of the people had just been waiting there. Apparently it was about 300 of around 7000 who stormed the border. 15 people including 9 children hurt.
Source (german): http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/gri...linge-183.html

[Snowhobbit]

While that is certainly a problem, it is problematic to state that they just don't want to work. It may also be that they cannot work because there are not enough jobs for them. Sweden is a small country and if you add so many people over a relatively short period of time, you cannot guarantee that the economy will just scale up and provide as many jobs. Then you may have employers who would prefer to hire Swedes and so on and you end up with a high unemployment rate among the newcomers that does not necessarily reflect their willingness to work.

Edit: Also news about Morocco. The country agreed to a new system to send Moroccan citizens back there. Around 10.000 apparently came last year, mostly among the refugees with fake Syrian passports. The acceptance rate of moroccan asylum applicants is apparently only 3.7%. They want to identify them as Moroccan citizens via their fingerprints which are saved in Morocco for biometric passports.
Source (german): http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/de-...ghreb-105.html

With free education and a whole slew of programs (including one that will pay 80% of your salary, so your employer does not have to) there comes a point where we have to discuss the will of the people who stand outside. I do not think you qualify as a newcomer having spent the better part of a decade in the country. If you want to work you will be able to get a job in 8 years given all of the government measures which are available, from salary subsidies to start-up assistance to targetted education in order to become qualified for crafts etc. Hell we even have a program where we pay to have people sent down to Germany to learn a trade (and German). If there is a will there is a way, and "structural discrimination" simply cannot account for 75% not being full-time employed (and 50% not even working 1 hour per week).

Very welcome to see that Morocco is going to cooperate with having their citizens return! I presume this will only be for the adults, but it is better than nothing. Maybe that will also help with identifying the age of the "minors" engaging in gang criminality on the streets of our major cities.

[Sarmatian]

Do note that the over representation after adjusting for socio-economic factors is often more than 4 times as high within the immigrant group as a whole, and that native Swedes are a minority (!) in our jails. The employement figures for refugees is that after 8 years only 25% of them are full-time employed. It puts a massive strain on an extensive welfare state like Sweden which is primarily supported by the notion that people who can work will work to help provide a good life for those who cannot work. Not for those who will not work. Add to this that a large portion of our welfare system is highly accessible even for people who are in the country illegally.

There are several things to address here. Number one is that even those who work part-time do actually work and are not unemployed. I would also like to hear how they do over a longer period, 15+ years. Several years are lost until they finally settle down in one place, learn the language and, in some cases, necessary training.

Crime is generally connected with poverty rather than religion or culture. England has much more immigrants than Scotland, and much lower violent crimes rate.

[Snowhobbit]

There are several things to address here. Number one is that even those who work part-time do actually work and are not unemployed. I would also like to hear how they do over a longer period, 15+ years. Several years are lost until they finally settle down in one place, learn the language and, in some cases, necessary training.

Crime is generally connected with poverty rather than religion or culture. England has much more immigrants than Scotland, and much lower violent crimes rate.

I'm not sure if there are studies for even longer periods of time, there are general employment numbers for foreigners and natives respectively (but then that would include work migrants etc, though half of those are unemployed after a few years too, it is an easy way to buy a visa). I'm not sure that I would count 1 hour a week as working to be honest. It does not count as working for EU perspectives, unless you are charging massively for that one hour. I'm curious as to how many years you think it takes to "settle down in one place" and what you mean by that. I interpret it as making a home, but maybe you mean something different? Again 8 years allow for a long time to learn the language (which should only take 1 year to learn enough to work, or 2 to learn enough to study at university) and possibly get some training. A large factor in the massive unemployment numbers is the fact that a lot of our refugees come from countries in which women are not allowed to work outside of the home.

Do you not understand what it means to account for socioeconomic factors?

[Husar]

With free education and a whole slew of programs (including one that will pay 80% of your salary, so your employer does not have to) there comes a point where we have to discuss the will of the people who stand outside. I do not think you qualify as a newcomer having spent the better part of a decade in the country. If you want to work you will be able to get a job in 8 years given all of the government measures which are available, from salary subsidies to start-up assistance to targetted education in order to become qualified for crafts etc. Hell we even have a program where we pay to have people sent down to Germany to learn a trade (and German). If there is a will there is a way, and "structural discrimination" simply cannot account for 75% not being full-time employed (and 50% not even working 1 hour per week).

You forgot the first point which is that companies may simply not have work for even more people at this point. There are apparently countries where the companies just hire people they don't need to give more people jobs for reasons I'm not aware of. But that's not something we do here in Capitalistan because it costs money we might as well save for the stakeholders. Why give money to a poor person if you could also make a rich person even happier?

[Snowhobbit]

You forgot the first point which is that companies may simply not have work for even more people at this point. There are apparently countries where the companies just hire people they don't need to give more people jobs for reasons I'm not aware of. But that's not something we do here in Capitalistan because it costs money we might as well save for the stakeholders. Why give money to a poor person if you could also make a rich person even happier?

Our companies are crying out for labour and more qualified workers. Sweden is not in a recession and our economy is growing. We are importing a whole lot of workers from India, China as well as of course our European neighbours. It is far from impossible to get a job in 8 years, in fact I'd say it is impossible to get a job if you try for 8 years. At some point you have to stop blaming everyone else and look at what you as an individual are doing (or not doing).

[Sarmatian]

I'm not sure if there are studies for even longer periods of time, there are general employment numbers for foreigners and natives respectively (but then that would include work migrants etc, though half of those are unemployed after a few years too, it is an easy way to buy a visa). I'm not sure that I would count 1 hour a week as working to be honest. It does not count as working for EU perspectives, unless you are charging massively for that one hour. I'm curious as to how many years you think it takes to "settle down in one place" and what you mean by that. I interpret it as making a home, but maybe you mean something different? Again 8 years allow for a long time to learn the language (which should only take 1 year to learn enough to work, or 2 to learn enough to study at university) and possibly get some training. A large factor in the massive unemployment numbers is the fact that a lot of our refugees come from countries in which women are not allowed to work outside of the home.

Do you not understand what it means to account for socioeconomic factors?

Part time doesn't mean 1 hour a week. It is generally considered up to 20 hours a week, half a work day, but it differs from country to country. In some workers who work more than 40 hours a week are considered part time if they are seasonal workers, for instance if they work during the tourist season.

Secondly, immigrants are more likely to be victims of exploitation by the unscrupulous employers, because they aren't aware of the regulations, they are desperate for any income or simply don't know who to turn to or they are simply afraid the employers word would be taken over theirs and they would be sent back. It is not uncommon for migrants to work more than 40 hours a week, while they employer pays benefits only for 20, or even less, or none at all. Furthermore, in some countries (I'm not sure how it works in Sweden), if they work 2 jobs part time for the full 40 hour work week, they are still considered to work only part time,

Thirdly, lumping all immigrants together is paints a flawed picture. Let's say a family moves to a country, and they have a 3 year old kid. Both parents start learning the language, which takes at least 6 months, year on average. After that, the father gets a job but he can only apply for a limited number of jobs, as his understanding of the language is not sufficient for complex conversations. So, he gets a job as an assistant in the kitchen somewhere, or a bus boy or something like. It takes longer for the mother to learn the language so she has trouble finding a job. She manages to earn some money by cleaning private houses, which isn't registered anywhere so she is till officially unemployed.
After two years, their command of the native language is excellent, the father gets a full time job, but the mother is pregnant again.
So, after five years or so, you have only one person out of three working a full time job, and only for three years of those five, but it is perfectly normal conditions. If a family of five moves, with children aged 2, 3 and 5 years respectively, where the father works full time, mother part time and the three children are in school, the statistics would tell you that only 20% of them are working full time for the next 15 years or so, while those are again perfectly normal living conditions, not different compared to native families in similar conditions.

That is why I said 8 years is too short a time to get the full picture.

[Snowhobbit]

Part time doesn't mean 1 hour a week. It is generally considered up to 20 hours a week, half a work day, but it differs from country to country. In some workers who work more than 40 hours a week are considered part time if they are seasonal workers, for instance if they work during the tourist season.

Secondly, immigrants are more likely to be victims of exploitation by the unscrupulous employers, because they aren't aware of the regulations, they are desperate for any income or simply don't know who to turn to or they are simply afraid the employers word would be taken over theirs and they would be sent back. It is not uncommon for migrants to work more than 40 hours a week, while they employer pays benefits only for 20, or even less, or none at all. Furthermore, in some countries (I'm not sure how it works in Sweden), if they work 2 jobs part time for the full 40 hour work week, they are still considered to work only part time,

Thirdly, lumping all immigrants together is paints a flawed picture. Let's say a family moves to a country, and they have a 3 year old kid. Both parents start learning the language, which takes at least 6 months, year on average. After that, the father gets a job but he can only apply for a limited number of jobs, as his understanding of the language is not sufficient for complex conversations. So, he gets a job as an assistant in the kitchen somewhere, or a bus boy or something like. It takes longer for the mother to learn the language so she has trouble finding a job. She manages to earn some money by cleaning private houses, which isn't registered anywhere so she is till officially unemployed.
After two years, their command of the native language is excellent, the father gets a full time job, but the mother is pregnant again.
So, after five years or so, you have only one person out of three working a full time job, and only for three years of those five, but it is perfectly normal conditions. If a family of five moves, with children aged 2, 3 and 5 years respectively, where the father works full time, mother part time and the three children are in school, the statistics would tell you that only 20% of them are working full time for the next 15 years or so, while those are again perfectly normal living conditions, not different compared to native families in similar conditions.

That is why I said 8 years is too short a time to get the full picture.

For the purpose of counting as employed 1 hour a week is sufficient. Which is why I mention it, because that is how the stats are tracked, and people think it means more than it does. We do not have a huge issue with workers being exploited due to strong unions and labour laws, maybe things are different in your country? In comparison natives in the age group 18-67 69%are full time employed, this number is consistent, for refugees it reaches an amazing 34% after 15 years. 8 years is a long time, let alone 15 years. You might want to look more at the numbers if you think a three children, mother and father is the typical group either. If you have a way of doing statistics without bunching people up into groups I'm all ears. Surprisingly we do not count children in the employment statistics...

I hate to ask again, do you not know what socioeconomic factors means?

[Sarmatian]

For the purpose of counting as employed 1 hour a week is sufficient. Which is why I mention it, because that is how the stats are tracked, and people think it means more than it does.

That is disingenuous. You mention 25% working full time. People working 1 hour a week are not working full time. Thus, you eliminate a significant number of immigrants working part time. Instead of calling you a liar, I'll assume you made an honest mistake and mixed some numbers up.

We do not have a huge issue with workers being exploited due to strong unions and labour laws, maybe things are different in your country?

Migrants are always exploited, especially in the first few years while they are still "getting their bearings". Less in Sweden than some other countries but it happens and much more than you think. There almost isn't a person from former Yugoslavia who didn't have to work some shitty job, with long hours and lousy pay, in the grey part of the economy for a few years after arriving in Sweden.

Surprisingly we do not count children in the employment statistics...

But you count them among migrants.

In comparison natives in the age group 18-67 69%are full time employed, this number is consistent, for refugees it reaches an amazing 34% after 15 years. 8 years is a long time, let alone 15 years. You might want to look more at the numbers if you think a three children, mother and father is the typical group either. If you have a way of doing statistics without bunching people up into groups I'm all ears.

Again, you're counting all migrants and only working age natives. There are currently 4,8 million workers in Sweden out of a population of 9,8 million, which comes to about 49% employment overall. Again, I'm not going to call you a liar, I'll assume you made an honest mistake and mixed some numbers up.

A kid aged 7 will just be graduating from a university after 15 years.

I hate to ask again, do you not know what socioeconomic factors means?

I read it the first time and it was a stupid question the first time. I've extended you the courtesy of engaging in a serious discussion with you. Be a smart ass somewhere else, or with someone else.

[Snowhobbit]

That is disingenuous. You mention 25% working full time. People working 1 hour a week are not working full time. Thus, you eliminate a significant number of immigrants working part time. Instead of calling you a liar, I'll assume you made an honest mistake and mixed some numbers up.



Migrants are always exploited, especially in the first few years while they are still "getting their bearings". Less in Sweden than some other countries but it happens and much more than you think. There almost isn't a person from former Yugoslavia who didn't have to work some shitty job, with long hours and lousy pay, in the grey part of the economy for a few years after arriving in Sweden.



But you count them among migrants.



Again, you're counting all migrants and only working age natives. There are currently 4,8 million workers in Sweden out of a population of 9,8 million, which comes to about 49% employment overall. Again, I'm not going to call you a liar, I'll assume you made an honest mistake and mixed some numbers up.

A kid aged 7 will just be graduating from a university after 15 years.



I read it the first time and it was a stupid question the first time. I've extended you the courtesy of engaging in a serious discussion with you. Be a smart ass somewhere else, or with someone else.

To clarify, a number that gets flung around a lot is that 50%are employed after 7 years. In fact to qualify as employed 1 hour worked on the week that the survey is done is enough to qualify as employed. Hence full time is a more useful metric. All of the numbers are only counting working age people, none of the numbers are counting children. I hope the above will help prevent any unclarity or misunderstanding. A large part of my friend circle and my family are immigrants, and a significant part of my colleagues have been immigrants, yet other than the exploitation of berry pickers there really aren't much of an issue.

The study about criminality accounts for socioeconomic factors which is why I ask if you do not understand the word since you keep bringing up poverty. Not sure why poor people would rape and murder more often in a welfare society where they will still have by most standards a good life. And such factors are accounted for. Bringing up poverty when that has been accounted for seems to me to be the stupid thing to do.

[Husar]

To clarify, a number that gets flung around a lot is that 50%are employed after 7 years. In fact to qualify as employed 1 hour worked on the week that the survey is done is enough to qualify as employed. Hence full time is a more useful metric.

But the assumption that all or even most of the part-time workers only work one hour and should therefore be excluded entirely seems strange.

[Snowhobbit]

But the assumption that all or even most of the part-time workers only work one hour and should therefore be excluded entirely seems strange.

The point is that since that data includes anyone from full time to one hour that one week that they asked, the data is useless. I should also clarify that this data includes people on the salary support systems where the government pays 80% of your salary, while the 25% after 8 years is not only full-time but also excludes jobs where the government is paying your salary in this manner. If data can be found that includes reasonable part-time workers that would be great. But do note that full time working age only compares with full time working age people.

[Snowhobbit]

As a side-note to highlight the issue, after 5 years 91% of refugee women are unemployed, using the more generous measure of employment where even 1 hour that week that is tax financed to 80%.

What are the employment figures for Germany comparing refugees to natives?

[Gilrandir]

It takes longer for the mother to learn the language

Sexism.

[Fragony]

Ain't that great, seperate centres for gays and christians in Dutchiestan. It isn't such a nice place for them. I wonder why.

edit, it's even worse than I thought. Sorry gays and christians, it's all a lie it wasn't me

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Sexism.

Age-ism if anything. Children under 25 with brains still in development mode acquire new languages more readily.

[Gilrandir]

Age-ism if anything. Children under 25 with brains still in development mode acquire new languages more readily.

The so-called sensitive period (most suitable for acquiring a language, including a foreign one) lasts till the age of 12, for acquiring the phonetics of a language till 6.

[Fragony]

The so-called sensitive period (most suitable for acquiring a language, including a foreign one) lasts till the age of 12, for acquiring the phonetics of a language till 6.

Not entirely true, don't ask me why but toddlers can already hear the difference between languages with international couples, they somehow just know that it are different languages and they learn both seperatily.

[Fragony]

Quote of the day by the childless Mutti 'that is not my Europe'

No Mutti Theresa, it isn't

[Fragony]

More like once a stasi always a stasi, she had little trouble betraying her best friends. There are much more disturbing things about her, she wants to prove that 'Germany has changed since the nazi's', other interview. A guilt ridden childless women who wants to adopt the entire middle east, hmmmmmm. Her eyes are empty, her smile is dumb. And yes before someone asks I do have a degree in psycholigy.

[Fragony]

She is simply a tyrant in the other direction. The continent lends itself to them. Putins one redeeming quality is how he bullies her.

Don't need Putin for that, no European nation takes Germany serious anymore, the childless mutti should have gotten a chihuaha and some peanut-butter

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The so-called sensitive period (most suitable for acquiring a language, including a foreign one) lasts till the age of 12, for acquiring the phonetics of a language till 6.

Quite true, though individuals vary. My 'children under 25' line reflected that a) brains continue to mature into the mid 20s, and b) that I am an old fart who looks at under 25s as vexing young whippersnappers.

[Husar]

Polish economic migrant from Brussels says: "Don't go to other countries for the money!"

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/0...60303135255252

[Fragony]

OH THE IRONY

[Husar]

OH THE IRONY

Memba this?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/200...y.kateconnolly

Unlike in Germany, there are jobs aplenty in Switzerland - and the Swiss pay up to a third more, taxes are lower and the social welfare system is better than Germany's.

Swiss chat shows and documentaries have also taken up the call, 'Germans are taking away our jobs', while some newspapers are even running regular anti-German stories with such headlines as 'A German stole my girlfriend'.
[...]
But German Anja Grob, 47, who works in Basle, said the thick-skinned Germans were unlikely to stop coming. Switzerland's neutrality, she believed, was the biggest pull: 'A country that has not been at war for centuries is really something that Germans admire greatly.'

[Gilrandir]

Not entirely true, don't ask me why but toddlers can already hear the difference between languages with international couples, they somehow just know that it are different languages and they learn both seperatily.

I spoke not of the ability to differentiate between languages, but about the ability to acquire language(s). If a child of a sensitive age acquires more than one language, they "are located" in the same brain area. A person past the sensitive age has "to create" a different locus for every new language.

As for an infant's ability to differentiate between languages, I wouldn't make such a bold statement. I would rather say that a child switches from one language to another depending on which of the parents he is talking to. I myself talk to my mother mostly in Ukrainian and to my father mostly in Russian.

If a child is addressed to by one parent, but in different languages he is likely to lump the languages together. I witnessed it when I saw one of my colleague's daughter whom she was trying to teach English from the earliest age possible (that is besides her mother tongue). As a result the child used English word roots in combination with Russian suffixes.

[Fragony]

Memba this?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/200...y.kateconnolly

but but but... that changes everything! Suddenly there is no more an uncontrollable influx of people there simply is no future for. It's better if they know that prior to trying, for everybody.