IMMIGRATION thread

[Viking]

The fleeing people are just a symptom. We could rescue people in the Mediterranean and grant them citizenship till there was no room left, and people would still try to cross it as long as the causes are still active.

Which is to say that the war in Syria needs to be stopped in a way that it does not flare up again 20 years later (hint to the fans of arab dictators), the Eritrean leadership (or at least its policies) need to be changed and Somalia needs to be fixed. Do these things, and much of the migrant masses would already have disappeared.

[wooly_mammoth]

Which is to say that the war in Syria needs to be stopped in a way that it does not flare up again 20 years later (hint to the fans of arab dictators)

Not sure I understood what you meant there. To my knowledge, most if not all the wars going from Lybia to Syria and beyond are solely due to american interference (and NATO as a follow-up of that). I have no idea why instead of seeing to fix the problems in their own country (and your favorite deity be praised, they have a motherload of those) they find it more useful to meddle into the afairs of others. Give me an example of one place where they interfered and it did not end up in a bigger disaster than it previously was. I'm having a hard time thinking of one.

[Viking]

To my knowledge, most if not all the wars going from Lybia to Syria and beyond are solely due to american interference

The wars in Libya and Syria were caused by unpopular dictator families who had placed themselves in power many decades ago. But not that many people are freeing from Libya, they are fleeing through it, like Eritreans. But that didn't have to be a big problem for us; the European governments could just have enforced strict policies and returned the vast majority of the migrants to where they came from - the problem is that they don't.

Blaming problems in the third world on outside forces is typically a convenient scapegoat. The most troubled of these countries normally have corrupt governance and/or major warring ethnic groups. Fix that, and the exodus would subside.

Give me an example of one place where they interfered and it did not end up in a bigger disaster than it previously was. I'm having a hard time thinking of one.

South Korea, Japan, Western Europe.

[Gilrandir]

South Korea, Japan, Western Europe.

...and the Moon!!!

[Montmorency]

Blaming problems in the third world on outside forces is typically a convenient scapegoat. The most troubled of these countries normally have corrupt governance and/or major warring ethnic groups. Fix that, and the exodus would subside.

You don't see the staggering irony in this comment?

[Viking]

You don't see the staggering irony in this comment?

Nope. Explain yourself.

[wooly_mammoth]

South Korea, Japan, Western Europe.

Point taken. I was thinking in a post cold war time frame.

[Greyblades]

There was also that time when they beat the shit out of North African pirates.

[Fragony]

Sure but there are hundreds of people that willl drown if we go VOC on them, not a sight I would like to see, surily there is a better solution. It might be childish but if eurocrats insist on not dealing with this they should also take the burden. There is a building in Strasbourgh that isn't really needed.

[Husar]

Give me an example of one place where they interfered and it did not end up in a bigger disaster than it previously was. I'm having a hard time thinking of one.

Vietnam.

[Montmorency]

Blaming problems in the third world on outside forces is typically a convenient scapegoat. The most troubled of these countries normally have corrupt governance and/or major warring ethnic groups. Fix that, and the exodus would subside.

How about this - 'blaming problems in Europe on outside forces is typically a convenient scapegoat'?

You seem to entertain an idea of national entities as somehow existing in separate spheres of reality from each other, yet go on to elaborate by contradicting yourself.

[Viking]

How about this - 'blaming problems in Europe on outside forces is typically a convenient scapegoat'?

Does who? I just said European politicians were one of the biggest factors for the problems faced in Europe.

You seem to entertain an idea of national entities as somehow existing in separate spheres of reality from each other, yet go on to elaborate by contradicting yourself.

Nope, not separate spheres. Outside influence has to be pretty heavy and pretty negative before it becomes unrealistic for local inhabitants to be able to build or sustain a functioning country.

[Brenus]

"so I say give them French citizenship. If only to piss off the French! " I would say give the Brits a vanguard taste of what wait for them when they will be about of EU. Say bon voyage to the migrants, hope you had good time, check they bought the ticket, and see your visa problem with the Brits. THIS will piss off the British.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Vietnam.

Well, the Vietnam War also destabilised Cambodia and Thailand.

[Husar]

Well, the Vietnam War also destabilised Cambodia and Thailand.

But those weren't the places where they interfered.

[Brenus]

"There is a building in Strasbourgh that isn't really needed." Needed for political reason. It was (is?) the price to pay for starting the European Movement.
Now, I am more in the mood to scrap all this EU free-market dictatorship and start again if possible, but first we have to take French traitor governments down. Never see in French History governments giving so easily sovereign powers, industries and assets to foreign powers so fast.
Pétain comes to mind, but at least he had the excuse of German invasion (he even gave things the German invaders didn't ask for, as racial laws).

[InsaneApache]

The Royal Navy is acting as a taxi service across the Med. dropping off migrants in Italy who then turn up at Calais a few days later. Madness.

My view?

Blockade the north African coast and stop any boats carrying migrants. Tow them back to the coast, dis-embark them and then sink the boat. Harsh? Yes. In the long term though, the message will get across and ultimately save lives.

As for those in Calais, well international law says that 'refugees' should claim asylum in the first safe country they enter, so I say give them French citizenship. If only to piss off the French!

[Fragony]

The fleeing people are just a symptom. We could rescue people in the Mediterranean and grant them citizenship till there was no room left, and people would still try to cross it as long as the causes are still active.

There already isn't any room left in the Netherlands at least, the EU demands that they het housing in six months, immigrants take the place of people who have been waiting for 6 years or more. And now the EU wants us to take in even more, there are no houses, there is no room. England gets te worst deal though, or rather the Brittish. They all want to go to England because the wellfare is most generous there

[Brenus]

"They all want to go to England because the wellfare is most generous there" Not really, but it is irrelevant as it is what the English and the immigrants think.