IMMIGRATION thread

[Fragony]

This is getting unmanagable. Not only is the meditarian sea the biggest graveyard in the world by now, thousands must have drowned by now, and the ones who make it are becomming a serious problem for France and England. Truckdrivers don't want to go to Callais anymore, the trains often get hours of delay because the tunnel gets swarmed. Any ideas. The most humanitarian solution would be to drag the ships back just close enough to the african coast, and load up on cheap but safe boats. Something has to be done.


Disclaimer: this is a merging of several threads. Title has nothing to do with any views in the OP.

[Brenus]

Oh, don't forget the ones coming by foot...
Solutions? Well, stop to bomb countries you don't like under various pretexts would be a good start. Note there are more "Muslims" willing to leave the Muslim very State of Levant than to go to live there. Stop created "independent" unsustainable states would be another solution (i.e Republic of Kosovo). Another option would be to stop free-market ideology which create massive employment and destroy communities.
EU imposes to neighbours trade agreements just doing this. So the unemployed EU created decide logically they don't want to starve, refusing to die in silence and dignity, the cowards. They "choose" to risk their life, to face potential death to go in hostile countries to seek potential better life. How can you stop that? STOP FREAKING HEADLESS TRADE POLICIES, and start to think human...

I know, too much to ask...

[Fragony]

A radical thought of my own, and not one that is going to please everybody, but maybe MORE capitalism would be the best. That wold absolutily take the power from their governments of course. But there would be enough to eat, enough to trade, and of course enough to exploit China also does it. Just read that another one washed up here, that's a little tragedy, big tragedy was yesterday, hundreds drowned. I wish I could say that I give a crap but I dont't and I don't like that.

[Viking]

The fleeing people are just a symptom. We could rescue people in the Mediterranean and grant them citizenship till there was no room left, and people would still try to cross it as long as the causes are still active.

Which is to say that the war in Syria needs to be stopped in a way that it does not flare up again 20 years later (hint to the fans of arab dictators), the Eritrean leadership (or at least its policies) need to be changed and Somalia needs to be fixed. Do these things, and much of the migrant masses would already have disappeared.

[wooly_mammoth]

Which is to say that the war in Syria needs to be stopped in a way that it does not flare up again 20 years later (hint to the fans of arab dictators)

Not sure I understood what you meant there. To my knowledge, most if not all the wars going from Lybia to Syria and beyond are solely due to american interference (and NATO as a follow-up of that). I have no idea why instead of seeing to fix the problems in their own country (and your favorite deity be praised, they have a motherload of those) they find it more useful to meddle into the afairs of others. Give me an example of one place where they interfered and it did not end up in a bigger disaster than it previously was. I'm having a hard time thinking of one.

[Fragony]

The fleeing people are just a symptom. We could rescue people in the Mediterranean and grant them citizenship till there was no room left, and people would still try to cross it as long as the causes are still active.

There already isn't any room left in the Netherlands at least, the EU demands that they het housing in six months, immigrants take the place of people who have been waiting for 6 years or more. And now the EU wants us to take in even more, there are no houses, there is no room. England gets te worst deal though, or rather the Brittish. They all want to go to England because the wellfare is most generous there

[Brenus]

"They all want to go to England because the wellfare is most generous there" Not really, but it is irrelevant as it is what the English and the immigrants think.

[Viking]

To my knowledge, most if not all the wars going from Lybia to Syria and beyond are solely due to american interference

The wars in Libya and Syria were caused by unpopular dictator families who had placed themselves in power many decades ago. But not that many people are freeing from Libya, they are fleeing through it, like Eritreans. But that didn't have to be a big problem for us; the European governments could just have enforced strict policies and returned the vast majority of the migrants to where they came from - the problem is that they don't.

Blaming problems in the third world on outside forces is typically a convenient scapegoat. The most troubled of these countries normally have corrupt governance and/or major warring ethnic groups. Fix that, and the exodus would subside.

Give me an example of one place where they interfered and it did not end up in a bigger disaster than it previously was. I'm having a hard time thinking of one.

South Korea, Japan, Western Europe.

[Gilrandir]

South Korea, Japan, Western Europe.

...and the Moon!!!

[Montmorency]

Blaming problems in the third world on outside forces is typically a convenient scapegoat. The most troubled of these countries normally have corrupt governance and/or major warring ethnic groups. Fix that, and the exodus would subside.

You don't see the staggering irony in this comment?

[wooly_mammoth]

South Korea, Japan, Western Europe.

Point taken. I was thinking in a post cold war time frame.

[Greyblades]

There was also that time when they beat the shit out of North African pirates.

[Viking]

You don't see the staggering irony in this comment?

Nope. Explain yourself.

[Fragony]

Sure but there are hundreds of people that willl drown if we go VOC on them, not a sight I would like to see, surily there is a better solution. It might be childish but if eurocrats insist on not dealing with this they should also take the burden. There is a building in Strasbourgh that isn't really needed.

[Husar]

Give me an example of one place where they interfered and it did not end up in a bigger disaster than it previously was. I'm having a hard time thinking of one.

Vietnam.

[Montmorency]

Blaming problems in the third world on outside forces is typically a convenient scapegoat. The most troubled of these countries normally have corrupt governance and/or major warring ethnic groups. Fix that, and the exodus would subside.

How about this - 'blaming problems in Europe on outside forces is typically a convenient scapegoat'?

You seem to entertain an idea of national entities as somehow existing in separate spheres of reality from each other, yet go on to elaborate by contradicting yourself.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Vietnam.

Well, the Vietnam War also destabilised Cambodia and Thailand.

[Husar]

Well, the Vietnam War also destabilised Cambodia and Thailand.

But those weren't the places where they interfered.

[Brenus]

"There is a building in Strasbourgh that isn't really needed." Needed for political reason. It was (is?) the price to pay for starting the European Movement.
Now, I am more in the mood to scrap all this EU free-market dictatorship and start again if possible, but first we have to take French traitor governments down. Never see in French History governments giving so easily sovereign powers, industries and assets to foreign powers so fast.
Pétain comes to mind, but at least he had the excuse of German invasion (he even gave things the German invaders didn't ask for, as racial laws).

[InsaneApache]

The Royal Navy is acting as a taxi service across the Med. dropping off migrants in Italy who then turn up at Calais a few days later. Madness.

My view?

Blockade the north African coast and stop any boats carrying migrants. Tow them back to the coast, dis-embark them and then sink the boat. Harsh? Yes. In the long term though, the message will get across and ultimately save lives.

As for those in Calais, well international law says that 'refugees' should claim asylum in the first safe country they enter, so I say give them French citizenship. If only to piss off the French!

[Viking]

How about this - 'blaming problems in Europe on outside forces is typically a convenient scapegoat'?

Does who? I just said European politicians were one of the biggest factors for the problems faced in Europe.

You seem to entertain an idea of national entities as somehow existing in separate spheres of reality from each other, yet go on to elaborate by contradicting yourself.

Nope, not separate spheres. Outside influence has to be pretty heavy and pretty negative before it becomes unrealistic for local inhabitants to be able to build or sustain a functioning country.

[Brenus]

"so I say give them French citizenship. If only to piss off the French! " I would say give the Brits a vanguard taste of what wait for them when they will be about of EU. Say bon voyage to the migrants, hope you had good time, check they bought the ticket, and see your visa problem with the Brits. THIS will piss off the British.

[Gilrandir]

Now, I am more in the mood to scrap all this EU free-market dictatorship and start again if possible, but first we have to take French traitor governments down. Never see in French History governments giving so easily sovereign powers, industries and assets to foreign powers so fast.

This reminds me something... Ah, yes, Lenin in 1917. Will Marxists ever change their rhetorics of "traitors yielding the national property to international capitalists" and "down with those we don't like"? The USSR story didn't teach them anything.

As for those in Calais, well international law says that 'refugees' should claim asylum in the first safe country they enter, so I say give them French citizenship.

You gotta be kidding. France a safe country? Charlie Hebdo staff are laughing their butts out up above.

[Brenus]

"Will Marxists ever change their rhetorics of "traitors yielding the national property to international capitalists" and "down with those we don't like"?" Pétain was not a traitor?

"The USSR story didn't teach them anything." Apparently not as they created EU following the same way. Look, you just had Natalie Jaresko, now your Finance Minister, got a Ukrainian National Identity the day before to get the job. Before she was USanian and worked for the State Department.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/natali...15-3?r=US&IR=T

[Husar]

I think we should bomb all the bad people in Africa to make the problem(s) go away!

[Montmorency]

Outside influence has to be pretty heavy and pretty negative before it becomes unrealistic for local inhabitants to be able to build or sustain a functioning country.

Why do you think that? You're just making the same mistake of dichotimization.

[Viking]

You're just making the same mistake of dichotimization.

No, don't know why you would interpret it that way. It's a scale.

If it is realistic for the inhabitants to create a functioning country, then they are failing as long as they aren't actually doing that. Blaming outside forces for their lack of success is then a distraction since they could have succeeded, anyway.

[Husar]

No, don't know why you would interpret it that way. It's a scale.

If it is realistic for the inhabitants to create a functioning country, then they are failing as long as they aren't actually doing that. Blaming outside forces for their lack of success is then a distraction since they could have succeeded, anyway.

Blaming Montmorency for not understanding your argument is a distraction since you could have made a good argument anyway.

Did you consider that a lot of regions in Africa etc. had functioning societies before colonialization?
And that e.g. former French colonies are still under a "pretty heavy" influence from France?
In other countries the local economies are destroyed by cheap imports from western mass production that they cannot compete without without buying really expensive technology from the west for which they have to take really heavy loans from the west and so on.
And then fisher boats take away all their fish because hey, we gotta look out for our profits.
But of course this is the fault of Africans for not having invented the nuke first and not having nuked the Europeans away when it was still socially acceptable.

[Viking]

Blaming Montmorency for not understanding your argument is a distraction since you could have made a good argument anyway.

Indeed, it's just that it doesn't affect my life particularly negatively if Montmorency does not follow my line of argument; so I lack the incentive to put a great deal of effort into it.

Did you consider that a lot of regions in Africa etc. had functioning societies before colonialization?

So?

And that e.g. former French colonies are still under a "pretty heavy" influence from France?
In other countries the local economies are destroyed by cheap imports from western mass production that they cannot compete without without buying really expensive technology from the west for which they have to take really heavy loans from the west and so on.
And then fisher boats take away all their fish because hey, we gotta look out for our profits.
But of course this is the fault of Africans for not having invented the nuke first and not having nuked the Europeans away when it was still socially acceptable.

The governments have armies. If there are foreign agents you think are exploiting your country, expel them - by force if necessary. Put policies in place to become as self-reliant as possible and import only from friendly countries as far as possible. Unite with other countries with similar problems in order to force opposing elements to take you even more seriously.

But I expect you are retelling common myths, anyway - or can you produce evidence that this is the fundamental cause for poverty in all or most poor African countries?

[Husar]

So?

Might be a strong hint that the current problems could be related to such an outside factor. Unless you want to claim that the effects of 100-400 years of foreign meddling and rule should have completely disappeared after a few months.

The governments have armies. If there are foreign agents you think are exploiting your country, expel them - by force if necessary. Put policies in place to become as self-reliant as possible and import only from friendly countries as far as possible. Unite with other countries with similar problems in order to force opposing elements to take you even more seriously.

Why don't you just say "Everybody be reasonable and nice already!"
http://thisisafrica.me/france-loots-former-colonies/

How are they going to pay their armies if France shuts off their access to their money?
A lot of these armies are also not too well trained, have low morela and/or are busy fighting some warlords.
Add to that that the government may be corrupt but is not easily changed by an unarmed population, the rebels are hardly better or even much worse, food is really hard to access (often on purpose as hunger is used as a weapon) and then some Euroweenie comes and says "man up, be reasonable"....yeah, because it's easy to say from a comfy chair...

But I expect you are retelling common myths, anyway - or can you produce evidence that this is the fundamental cause for poverty in all or most poor African countries?

Can you prove that it is the fault of the refugees? Can you prove that the countries are democratic enough that the citizens are to blame? And if not, can you prove that the citizens are not trying hard enough to change this?