IMMIGRATION thread

[Viking]

Viking, I don't think you understand what I'm commenting about in your posts.



This statement is so vague as to have no meaning. I'll take the liberty of putting a better-specified argument in your mouth, which is just that African countries from which refugees/illegal immigrants into Europe commonly emigrate have some endemic ecological, structural, and cultural problems that contribute to the pressure to emigrate (e.g. violence, corruption, shortage of work, food, other resources, etc.); it is not a complete explanation toward accounting for these problems to say that international political or economic interaction is what simply contributes toward or perpetuates these problems or their conditions.

Further taking into account that everything interacts and covaries, we see that the world situation is dynamic and no institution or people anywhere act or exist in a vacuum distinct from others such that some parties could unilaterally shift certain policies to produce an immediate and dramatic effect on the aforementioned issues (besides, you know, OWG ).

Put that way, I would agree, since it applies as well to Western countries and whatever problems you may identify in them.

The point is the principle that can be summarised with this analogy: if your goal is to cross a street, sufficiently strong wind can make it difficult, but as long as it isn't too strong, you can actually cross it. Even if you could write an entire doctoral thesis on how much harder it is to cross it with the wind in place, as long as you can cross it, you can.

It's not about saying that people are lazy or stupid, but that if they all co-operated, they could do it. If a large enough group realised this, they could actually succeed in changing the country for the better (as per the the 'realistic' criterion) (and as social media penetrates deeper and deeper into Africa, this also becomes a more realistic scenario).

History is full of examples of systems that were torn down by the people living under it; both peacefully and not so peacefully. To talk about complexity and covariance is to miss the point.

Very much possible, and why is that so?

For example because some people in that country did not have the foresight to prevent these people from getting into power.

Is it reasonable to stick to and even propagate a system that directly aids or at least profits from the instability of other societies and then wonder why these other societies are doing so bad?

Huh?

Did you even read the article? How many of the refugees sent their money to France?

I was talking about the state.

Yes, North Korea is only doing so well because it drove out all the foreigners.

No one said all foreigners should be expelled. Look to Cuba and Venezuela for more successful examples of countries who are in opposition to the "imperialists".

You keep ignoring that a lot of these internal problems only came to be through external influences.

Nope, I showed how these problems of external origin can be fixed or weakened. The fact that they are not is because the country's leadership is incompetent; they either can't or don't handle the problems they should be handling, and are more interested in enriching themselves and their families. They aren't failing because they face foreign demons that are too strong, but because they are hardly trying at all.

And why then do you seemingly blame the refugees for the problems in their countries?
I agree that Europe cannot take all the refugees but you sounded as though you were saying:
"Well, it's got nothing to do with us, let's seal our borders and wait until they fix their own mess."
If that was a misunderstanding then please elaborate

I don't blame them, but it is their country and their mess, and therefore it makes sense that they should attempt to fix it, per common sense. It is their countrymen that are killing each other and taking bribes, not French raid parties pillaging and burning villages.