IMMIGRATION thread

[Husar]

I thought you would know it already, were you Norwegian as you claim.

The source is the police themselves...

Article in English:

http://swedenreport.org/2015/05/18/p...nes-in-sweden/

Are you really this ideologically driven?

That's a policing problem/badly implemented immigration/policing policy.
Might have something to do with Swedish people not being very welcoming as well.
http://www.swedensucks.com/antisocial-culture.html

[Kadagar_AV]

A blog on the internet, versus a major journalistic publication, i wonder who to trust ... wait a minute.

First thing I could find in English... It links you on to sources as well, so I don't see the problem.

The 55 zones where the police has lost control was an official report from the police, and it was run in most media here... Follow the links.

That's a policing problem/badly implemented immigration/policing policy.
Might have something to do with Swedish people not being very welcoming as well.
http://www.swedensucks.com/antisocial-culture.html

Yes, of course it's Swedens fault...

We just accept more than anyone else in Europe, we give them free apartments and money from the state if they dont get a job... They have free health and dental care, they get full education... We let them keep their religion and have free classes to learn Swedish...


OH THE HORROR!!!! I SEE IT NOW!!!

No wonder they are pissed at us and want revenge on the society that gave them shelter from a war.



That was the most absurd thing I have read yet on these boards... Sig worthy material, right there.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

A blog on the internet, versus a major journalistic publication, i wonder who to trust ... wait a minute.

Original Source - http://fof.se/tidning/2015/5/artikel...a-gangens-makt

According to Swedish Wikipedia it's a Scientific Journal published ten times a year run by a Non-Profit Organisation.

Admittedly I'm running this through Google translate with a little Medieval-English-Fu but I see no indication the original article is from a hack publication and it appears to be talking about what Kad is describing, grenades and all.

Addendum - you'll note the above is a Swedish source talking about Sweden whilst your source is an American one talking about Europe generally.

That's a policing problem/badly implemented immigration/policing policy.
Might have something to do with Swedish people not being very welcoming as well.
http://www.swedensucks.com/antisocial-culture.html

Absolutely right - it was stupid of the Swedish government to accept so many people so quickly, allow them all to clump together and assume they would become good socialists.

No stop trolling Kad and re-state your position formally like a good Backroomer because I have no idea what you're on about at this point and if it's so simple you can do the gentlemanly thing and explain it rather than ask us to wade through seven pages. Whatever else you can say about Kad's position he's been entirely upfront about it.

[Leet Eriksson]

Original Source - http://fof.se/tidning/2015/5/artikel...a-gangens-makt

According to Swedish Wikipedia it's a Scientific Journal published ten times a year run by a Non-Profit Organisation.

Admittedly I'm running this through Google translate with a little Medieval-English-Fu but I see no indication the original article is from a hack publication and it appears to be talking about what Kad is describing, grenades and all.

Addendum - you'll note the above is a Swedish source talking about Sweden whilst your source is an American one talking about Europe generally.



Absolutely right - it was stupid of the Swedish government to accept so many people so quickly, allow them all to clump together and assume they would become good socialists.

No stop trolling Kad and re-state your position formally like a good Backroomer because I have no idea what you're on about at this point and if it's so simple you can do the gentlemanly thing and explain it rather than ask us to wade through seven pages. Whatever else you can say about Kad's position he's been entirely upfront about it.

Do you mean the link you just posted? because his english link was definitely some sort of biased blog. Also the bloomberg article is interesting because it takes a stab at all of them as opposed to just Sweden.

Furthermore, the article i posted debunks the articles he posted, and it uses very clear language, calling it false.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Do you mean the link you just posted? because his english link was definitely some sort of biased blog. Also the bloomberg article is interesting because it takes a stab at all of them as opposed to just Sweden.

Furthermore, the article i posted debunks the articles he posted, and it uses very clear language, calling it false.

I gave you the original article the blog was riffing off, and I gave you as much context as I could for it.

The Bloomberg article it basically Americans debating what they think about Europe - the Swedish one is about the situation in Sweden, and even running it through Google translate you can see it makes grim reading. Now, whether you think the article has enough statistics to support its main point is another question and a bit difficult to tell when running the whole thing through a computer program but it describes things common to European ghettos like an ethnically cohesive criminal class and a "wall of silence" when the Police try to investigate any crime, regardless of context.

Bear in mind that Americans will tend to imagine not just a ghetto but also endemic Urban decay. In Europe it's perfectly possible to have a ghetto where everything works and which you can actually walk through quite happily during the day, provided you're on the main streets. What Europeans - white Europeans - mean when they talk about a "ghetto" is somewhere where the writ of national law is thin because of local non-co-operation and where all the white people have sold up and left.

[Leet Eriksson]

I gave you the original article the blog was riffing off, and I gave you as much context as I could for it.

The Bloomberg article it basically Americans debating what they think about Europe - the Swedish one is about the situation in Sweden, and even running it through Google translate you can see it makes grim reading. Now, whether you think the article has enough statistics to support its main point is another question and a bit difficult to tell when running the whole thing through a computer program but it describes things common to European ghettos like an ethnically cohesive criminal class and a "wall of silence" when the Police try to investigate any crime, regardless of context.

Bear in mind that Americans will tend to imagine not just a ghetto but also endemic Urban decay. In Europe it's perfectly possible to have a ghetto where everything works and which you can actually walk through quite happily during the day, provided you're on the main streets. What Europeans - white Europeans - mean when they talk about a "ghetto" is somewhere where the writ of national law is thin because of local non-co-operation and where all the white people have sold up and left.

The problem still lies in the fact the Bloomberg article quotes an Academic, Daniel Pipes, who has no love for Muslims at all if you even know that sort of discourse, so yeah i don't really care what the article imagines, they're stating facts and quoting and backing it up with the words of an academic, so no its not just opinion or "americans debating" or imagining things here and it really does go the whole length of the argument in calling the delusions of the articles posted by Kadagar false.

http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...mments/384656/

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...es-non-muslims

these are to more articles on the issue, take note, the latter is a British publication, its kind of obvious the whole issue is perpetuated by delusional racists into thinking a minority that are in the single percentile controlling entire European countries.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The problem still lies in the fact the Bloomberg article quotes an Academic, Daniel Pipes, who has no love for Muslims at all if you even know that sort of discourse, so yeah i don't really care what the article imagines, they're stating facts and quoting and backing it up with the words of an academic, so no its not just opinion or "americans debating" or imagining things here and it really does go the whole length of the argument in calling the delusions of the articles posted by Kadagar false.

http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...mments/384656/

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...es-non-muslims

these are to more articles on the issue, take note, the latter is a British publication, its kind of obvious the whole issue is perpetuated by delusional racists into thinking a minority that are in the single percentile controlling entire European countries.

Did you even take a look at the article I linked to?

The Swedish article quotes Academics (plural) and Swedish Police.

I realise it's in Swedish but, as I said, you could run it through Google translate or something similar and you would see that this Swedish journal is reporting the same thing about Sweden as Kad is.

Now, I don't know the Atlantic but to read the Guardian, or parts of it, you would think Julian Assange was a prisoner of conscience rather than a letch who is hiding in a foreign embassy until the statute of limitations runs out on his rape case in Sweden

Like I said, I'm not saying the journal lacks a bias but it appears more robust than Bloombery and certainly more robust than the Guardian.

I looked up Daniel Pipes - I see no reason why he should be an authority on this - the fact that he visited Paris and changed his opinion tells me he was not well informed and then altered his position based on personnal experience rather than on becoming better informed.

What you see is not always the whole truth.

[Husar]

I have a bridge to sell you

This is something that the government should keep an eye on.
I also don't want an American bridge, they're all rotten and if they still work, presidential candidates close them over personal feuds.

[Husar]

Absolutely right - it was stupid of the Swedish government to accept so many people so quickly, allow them all to clump together and assume they would become good socialists.

Yes, it would be much better if Poland would actually behave like good catholics and take it's fair share of desperate souls, as well as some of the other xenophobic countries in Europe. That would probably result in far more manageable numbers everywhere.

No stop trolling Kad and re-state your position formally like a good Backroomer because I have no idea what you're on about at this point and if it's so simple you can do the gentlemanly thing and explain it rather than ask us to wade through seven pages. Whatever else you can say about Kad's position he's been entirely upfront about it.

Trolling Kad? He is the one repeating the same bad points every four months as though they had never been disproven. My name is not Sisyphos and for being "honest", I am not fond of repeating things over and over for someone who constantly throws veiled insults at me and combines it with veiled racism while he never provides any proof, only opinions and unsubstantiated racist garbage statements. Do you think I haven't noticed that ever since the "Africans have a lower IQ" argument was proven to be unsubstantiated racism, he replaced it with "some cultures are just HORRIBLE", which basially carries the same racist intention?

You may want to reconsider who is the troll here...I don't want to repeat the same discussion every few months and spend hours doing so, when his lack of any kind of sensible argument can also be exposed much faster. And that people can't remember anything is unfortunate, maybe that's why we always have the same discussions again and again, Im just trying to break the vicious circle...

But if you want a short repetition, we're basically crying on a very high level. Not only could we sort out our "aid" and "cooperation" that currently often exacerbates problems or even causes them, we could also put in more effort to help those who are actually in need of help.
And here in the thread we could stop assuming that everybody who arrives here is actually allowed to stay indefinitely or even to stay at all. And Im tired of the wealthy always blaming the poor. Assad was suppoted by Putin, the rebels were supplied by the CIA, who do we blame? The people who come here trying not to die. Wow, that's brave and heroic! We even come up with all kinds of assumptions on how greedy they are and that scares us because we have so much more and do not want to give them anything Surely that makes us better...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yes, it would be much better if Poland would actually behave like good catholics and take it's fair share of desperate souls, as well as some of the other xenophobic countries in Europe. That would probably result in far more manageable numbers everywhere.

Sorry, what? Would you like to list all the racist countries for us just so we can be clear?

From wehere I'm sitting most European countries don't want to take in hundreds of thousands of immigrants a year, and I don't blame them because it's not manageable.

Trolling Kad? He is the one repeating the same bad points every four months as though they had never been disproven. My name is not Sisyphos and for being "honest", I am not fond of repeating things over and over for someone who constantly throws veiled insults at me and combines it with veiled racism while he never provides any proof, only opinions and unsubstantiated racist garbage statements. Do you think I haven't noticed that ever since the "Africans have a lower IQ" argument was proven to be unsubstantiated racism, he replaced it with "some cultures are just HORRIBLE", which basially carries the same racist intention?

Kad does tend to repeat himself, but his arguments have developed. He's gone from "I don't want them here" to "I don't want them here but I want to make their country better".

Also, not all his arguments are "bad" at all. While it's inflamatory to say we should "sink the boats before they leave" he's basically correct that these boats are deathtraps and if we blokaded the ports they were coming from we'd ruin the people trafficers and we'd no longer have thousands of man women and children dying in the Med every month. You haven't suggested an alternative to a blockade to stop the boats and we DO need to stop them, as close to home port as possible.

As for Kad being racist, no he's not. Is he prejudiced, oh hell yes, excessively, but that's a product of his life experience and he's hardly a single voice in Europe these days. If you don't think that killing your daughter for having a boyfriend and wanting to live her own life is horrible and basically evil then I have no sympathy for your perspective. It is a FACT that certain African and Middle Eastern cultures, which are predominantly Muslim, practice this. They also practice female genital mutilation and forced marriage which is basically family-condoned rape.

Kad finds these people disgusting and he wants nothing of their cultures, neither do I, and that does not make us racist. Racist would be seeing these people as "unevolved" or their culture as "underdeveloped" when neither is true. These people are just as intelligent as us and their cultures are just as rich and complex - and part of that rich culture is the disgusting things mentioned above.

Now, as I know that you're going to bring it up I'll touch briefly on Kad's somewhat unhealthy obsession with IQ tests. IQ tests were, and still largely are, designed by white people from European cultures and it is a fact that when exported to other cultures, especially African ones, that the median score is often lower than 100. This doesn't mean Africans are "stupid" or genetically inferior but it does tell you that they don't think like us - which is obvious if you look at their rich culture and the way they construct their societies - it's something Nelson Mandela discussed in one of the early chapters of his autobiography and he even tacitly acknowledged that the African forms of government were poorly designed to respond to the top-down Colonial governments because they king required absolute consensus before he could do anything.

You may want to reconsider who is the troll here...I don't want to repeat the same discussion every few months and spend hours doing so, when his lack of any kind of sensible argument can also be exposed much faster. And that people can't remember anything is unfortunate, maybe that's why we always have the same discussions again and again, Im just trying to break the vicious circle...

"Go back and read what I wrote before" is a classic troll-tactic as opposed to "go back and read what I wrote in post #75" which is not.

I'm not sure it's malicious but you're far from coherent in the Ukraine threads and I personally feel that the lazy moderating style of the Backroom has caused you to develop bad habits.

But if you want a short repetition, we're basically crying on a very high level. Not only could we sort out our "aid" and "cooperation" that currently often exacerbates problems or even causes them, we could also put in more effort to help those who are actually in need of help.
And here in the thread we could stop assuming that everybody who arrives here is actually allowed to stay indefinitely or even to stay at all. And Im tired of the wealthy always blaming the poor. Assad was suppoted by Putin, the rebels were supplied by the CIA, who do we blame? The people who come here trying not to die. Wow, that's brave and heroic! We even come up with all kinds of assumptions on how greedy they are and that scares us because we have so much more and do not want to give them anything Surely that makes us better...

That's not a poor summation of the problem, but you're not offering any real solutions. We have tried "sorting out" our aid and co-operation but it's not that easy, we co-operated with the moderate secular opposition to Gaddaffi when the Libyan Civil War broke out to try to get out ahead of the Islamists and that actually worked, but then Russia and China prevented us from doing the same in Syria which eroded all the good will in the Arab world we had just built up and then Islamic State became the answer to Tyranny - meanwhile the secular moderates in Libya were unable to hold back the various tribes there and now that country has basically been split in two in a sort of internal Cold War.

Let me pose you a specific question - Greece had 50,000 immigrants from the Middle East last month, many coming via Turkey, how do we stop that because Greece can't cope with those numbers for any sustained period.

[Kadagar_AV]

Thank you PVC :)

Very well written.


About my idea to sink the boats... I don't see why it would be so inflammatory? I of course in no way suggest sinking boats out at sea with people in them... What I of course mean is to set up a smaller intelligence operation to find out what ships/boats are to ferry immigrants the next day, and during the night put some well placed holes in them.

When the smugglers start to lose their boats without getting the money for "safe" passage (and I mean "safe" in a very, very sarcastic way), they will cease with that method.

The reason why I want to sink them is the same as you said:

we DO need to stop them, as close to home port as possible.

Can't get any closer than what I suggest... It would also directly hit the smugglers before the people pay...

As it is now, we just have a system that keep the smugglers motivated to continue flooding Europe while risking peoples lives.

[Husar]

Sorry, what? Would you like to list all the racist countries for us just so we can be clear?

From wehere I'm sitting most European countries don't want to take in hundreds of thousands of immigrants a year, and I don't blame them because it's not manageable.

Immigrants or refugees? Refugees should return once their reason for fleeing is gone. And where did I call a country racist?
I said some are xenophobic.
Besides, there are only so many refugees per country in the countries open to them because the others hardly let any in. If all countries accepted some refugees and there were a fair distribution, then it would be more manageable in every country. Maybe Sweden would not have to accept a hundred thousand every year if Poland took in a few thousand of them, and Poland has around 4 times the Population of Sweden or so, they could afford to take more. Add a few other countries chipping in and there might be just 5000 left for Sweden each year, quite a few of which should ultimately be sent back once their country of origin is peaceful again. Sounds more manageable? It should be coordinated by the EU preferably and I red today that some efforts like that are on the way but some countries seem not to want to help either way.

Kad does tend to repeat himself, but his arguments have developed. He's gone from "I don't want them here" to "I don't want them here but I want to make their country better".

Actually he has just added a part because the first part of his argument hasn't changed.
My argument is that we can accept some of them here, some of them should only stay temporarily anyway and that yes, we should stop ruining other countries and help them get better, which was how I started into this thread long ago.

Also, not all his arguments are "bad" at all. While it's inflamatory to say we should "sink the boats before they leave" he's basically correct that these boats are deathtraps and if we blokaded the ports they were coming from we'd ruin the people trafficers and we'd no longer have thousands of man women and children dying in the Med every month. You haven't suggested an alternative to a blockade to stop the boats and we DO need to stop them, as close to home port as possible.

Or we could provide them safe boats and undermine the traffickers that way. Noone can explain though, how we would deal with the issue of operating in foreign countries that may not want us to operate there. Kadagar just wants to undermine their national sovereignty by sending spec ops apparently. And what do we do if they perform makeshift repairs on the holes in their boats and try to come with even less safe boats? Destroy the entire boats with spec ops? What if they begin to hunt down our spec ops? Full-scale invasion? Drone strikes on boats?

As for Kad being racist, no he's not. Is he prejudiced, oh hell yes, excessively, but that's a product of his life experience and he's hardly a single voice in Europe these days.

The way these refugees are is also a product of their life experience...
Apparently we can blame them for being that way though but not Kadagar, why?

If you don't think that killing your daughter for having a boyfriend and wanting to live her own life is horrible and basically evil then I have no sympathy for your perspective. It is a FACT that certain African and Middle Eastern cultures, which are predominantly Muslim, practice this. They also practice female genital mutilation and forced marriage which is basically family-condoned rape.

Where did I say that is not wrong? Can you support the apparent position that everybody who comes here as a refugee wants to do that?
Is it legal to do that in most European countries? Does it change the fact that thinking they do this due to an inherent inferiority is racist?
I know he does not say that outright, but he did often enough in the past and never said otherwise, IMO it sort of "shines through" a lot of his statements. He is free to retract that claim and maybe I will change my opinion then.

Kad finds these people disgusting and he wants nothing of their cultures, neither do I, and that does not make us racist. Racist would be seeing these people as "unevolved" or their culture as "underdeveloped" when neither is true. These people are just as intelligent as us and their cultures are just as rich and complex - and part of that rich culture is the disgusting things mentioned above.

Now, as I know that you're going to bring it up I'll touch briefly on Kad's somewhat unhealthy obsession with IQ tests. IQ tests were, and still largely are, designed by white people from European cultures and it is a fact that when exported to other cultures, especially African ones, that the median score is often lower than 100. This doesn't mean Africans are "stupid" or genetically inferior but it does tell you that they don't think like us - which is obvious if you look at their rich culture and the way they construct their societies - it's something Nelson Mandela discussed in one of the early chapters of his autobiography and he even tacitly acknowledged that the African forms of government were poorly designed to respond to the top-down Colonial governments because they king required absolute consensus before he could do anything.

Yes, and that is where I think you and Kadagar differ because he does still seem to think they are inherently inferior. As I said it shines through in the derogatory ways and the terminology he uses when he talks about people from Africa. In the same way that he always calls me stuid without obviously breaking forum rules. Your argument is like saying neo nazis aren't racist because they never make racist comments in front of a camera. They don't make racist comments in front of a camera on purpose. It's also true for a lot of terrorists by the way, muslim ones included, before anyone accuses me of not having them on the radar. (it's like one has to add that not to be accused of being too PC these days, how very anti-PC....)

"Go back and read what I wrote before" is a classic troll-tactic as opposed to "go back and read what I wrote in post #75" which is not.

And "that's either trolling or semi-retarded" is fine in comparison? He did not read or remember what I said and then I have to go through all the posts to look for the content he does not have? Why do I have to waste 10 minutes due to his fault? I do not index my posts either.

I'm not sure it's malicious but you're far from coherent in the Ukraine threads and I personally feel that the lazy moderating style of the Backroom has caused you to develop bad habits.

The Ukraine thread is a different thread about a different topic where I had different reasons to do different things. And mayb it was a mistake to be so persistent in it for so long. Maybe. I might troll Kadagar because he keeps calling me stupid, you can see it as sign of good will that I don't.

That's not a poor summation of the problem, but you're not offering any real solutions. We have tried "sorting out" our aid and co-operation but it's not that easy, we co-operated with the moderate secular opposition to Gaddaffi when the Libyan Civil War broke out to try to get out ahead of the Islamists and that actually worked, but then Russia and China prevented us from doing the same in Syria which eroded all the good will in the Arab world we had just built up and then Islamic State became the answer to Tyranny - meanwhile the secular moderates in Libya were unable to hold back the various tribes there and now that country has basically been split in two in a sort of internal Cold War.

Let me pose you a specific question - Greece had 50,000 immigrants from the Middle East last month, many coming via Turkey, how do we stop that because Greece can't cope with those numbers for any sustained period.

But what we did with Gaddafi lead to the coast being so open for the traffickers, what we did in Afghanistan and other countries directly lead to all the refugees. And what we did to Gaddafi also led to Syrians and others thinking we will bomb their government if they rise up. Maybe we should use a little more foresight. Even if we cannot easily rectify our past mistakes easily now, and that may be why I have no solid solution, then we can at least own up to them and help these refugees now instead of unloading the problems we helped create onto other countries. If it causes problems, see it as a lesson and try not to make such mistakes again, they obviously do backfire sometimes.