IMMIGRATION thread

[Leet Eriksson]

I gave you the original article the blog was riffing off, and I gave you as much context as I could for it.

The Bloomberg article it basically Americans debating what they think about Europe - the Swedish one is about the situation in Sweden, and even running it through Google translate you can see it makes grim reading. Now, whether you think the article has enough statistics to support its main point is another question and a bit difficult to tell when running the whole thing through a computer program but it describes things common to European ghettos like an ethnically cohesive criminal class and a "wall of silence" when the Police try to investigate any crime, regardless of context.

Bear in mind that Americans will tend to imagine not just a ghetto but also endemic Urban decay. In Europe it's perfectly possible to have a ghetto where everything works and which you can actually walk through quite happily during the day, provided you're on the main streets. What Europeans - white Europeans - mean when they talk about a "ghetto" is somewhere where the writ of national law is thin because of local non-co-operation and where all the white people have sold up and left.

The problem still lies in the fact the Bloomberg article quotes an Academic, Daniel Pipes, who has no love for Muslims at all if you even know that sort of discourse, so yeah i don't really care what the article imagines, they're stating facts and quoting and backing it up with the words of an academic, so no its not just opinion or "americans debating" or imagining things here and it really does go the whole length of the argument in calling the delusions of the articles posted by Kadagar false.

http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...mments/384656/

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...es-non-muslims

these are to more articles on the issue, take note, the latter is a British publication, its kind of obvious the whole issue is perpetuated by delusional racists into thinking a minority that are in the single percentile controlling entire European countries.

[Fragony]

Is it everytime you are faced with a call out you either call them trolls or stupid? If you can't back your claims with actual evidence, or the fact the swedish government is ruining its own country then you are practically for all intents and purposes either deluded or extremely dense and fed trash.

You seem to take it personal, why would you, it isn't you who does it. Can we call a spade a spade please? It's just true that Sweden has a significant problem with immigrants and their offspring. Why not looking at what can be done better instead of looking away from obvious problems. They exist. What Sweden hauls in isn't Arab nobility such as yourself but from the worst places in the world.

[Husar]

Sorry, what? Would you like to list all the racist countries for us just so we can be clear?

From wehere I'm sitting most European countries don't want to take in hundreds of thousands of immigrants a year, and I don't blame them because it's not manageable.

Immigrants or refugees? Refugees should return once their reason for fleeing is gone. And where did I call a country racist?
I said some are xenophobic.
Besides, there are only so many refugees per country in the countries open to them because the others hardly let any in. If all countries accepted some refugees and there were a fair distribution, then it would be more manageable in every country. Maybe Sweden would not have to accept a hundred thousand every year if Poland took in a few thousand of them, and Poland has around 4 times the Population of Sweden or so, they could afford to take more. Add a few other countries chipping in and there might be just 5000 left for Sweden each year, quite a few of which should ultimately be sent back once their country of origin is peaceful again. Sounds more manageable? It should be coordinated by the EU preferably and I red today that some efforts like that are on the way but some countries seem not to want to help either way.

Kad does tend to repeat himself, but his arguments have developed. He's gone from "I don't want them here" to "I don't want them here but I want to make their country better".

Actually he has just added a part because the first part of his argument hasn't changed.
My argument is that we can accept some of them here, some of them should only stay temporarily anyway and that yes, we should stop ruining other countries and help them get better, which was how I started into this thread long ago.

Also, not all his arguments are "bad" at all. While it's inflamatory to say we should "sink the boats before they leave" he's basically correct that these boats are deathtraps and if we blokaded the ports they were coming from we'd ruin the people trafficers and we'd no longer have thousands of man women and children dying in the Med every month. You haven't suggested an alternative to a blockade to stop the boats and we DO need to stop them, as close to home port as possible.

Or we could provide them safe boats and undermine the traffickers that way. Noone can explain though, how we would deal with the issue of operating in foreign countries that may not want us to operate there. Kadagar just wants to undermine their national sovereignty by sending spec ops apparently. And what do we do if they perform makeshift repairs on the holes in their boats and try to come with even less safe boats? Destroy the entire boats with spec ops? What if they begin to hunt down our spec ops? Full-scale invasion? Drone strikes on boats?

As for Kad being racist, no he's not. Is he prejudiced, oh hell yes, excessively, but that's a product of his life experience and he's hardly a single voice in Europe these days.

The way these refugees are is also a product of their life experience...
Apparently we can blame them for being that way though but not Kadagar, why?

If you don't think that killing your daughter for having a boyfriend and wanting to live her own life is horrible and basically evil then I have no sympathy for your perspective. It is a FACT that certain African and Middle Eastern cultures, which are predominantly Muslim, practice this. They also practice female genital mutilation and forced marriage which is basically family-condoned rape.

Where did I say that is not wrong? Can you support the apparent position that everybody who comes here as a refugee wants to do that?
Is it legal to do that in most European countries? Does it change the fact that thinking they do this due to an inherent inferiority is racist?
I know he does not say that outright, but he did often enough in the past and never said otherwise, IMO it sort of "shines through" a lot of his statements. He is free to retract that claim and maybe I will change my opinion then.

Kad finds these people disgusting and he wants nothing of their cultures, neither do I, and that does not make us racist. Racist would be seeing these people as "unevolved" or their culture as "underdeveloped" when neither is true. These people are just as intelligent as us and their cultures are just as rich and complex - and part of that rich culture is the disgusting things mentioned above.

Now, as I know that you're going to bring it up I'll touch briefly on Kad's somewhat unhealthy obsession with IQ tests. IQ tests were, and still largely are, designed by white people from European cultures and it is a fact that when exported to other cultures, especially African ones, that the median score is often lower than 100. This doesn't mean Africans are "stupid" or genetically inferior but it does tell you that they don't think like us - which is obvious if you look at their rich culture and the way they construct their societies - it's something Nelson Mandela discussed in one of the early chapters of his autobiography and he even tacitly acknowledged that the African forms of government were poorly designed to respond to the top-down Colonial governments because they king required absolute consensus before he could do anything.

Yes, and that is where I think you and Kadagar differ because he does still seem to think they are inherently inferior. As I said it shines through in the derogatory ways and the terminology he uses when he talks about people from Africa. In the same way that he always calls me stuid without obviously breaking forum rules. Your argument is like saying neo nazis aren't racist because they never make racist comments in front of a camera. They don't make racist comments in front of a camera on purpose. It's also true for a lot of terrorists by the way, muslim ones included, before anyone accuses me of not having them on the radar. (it's like one has to add that not to be accused of being too PC these days, how very anti-PC....)

"Go back and read what I wrote before" is a classic troll-tactic as opposed to "go back and read what I wrote in post #75" which is not.

And "that's either trolling or semi-retarded" is fine in comparison? He did not read or remember what I said and then I have to go through all the posts to look for the content he does not have? Why do I have to waste 10 minutes due to his fault? I do not index my posts either.

I'm not sure it's malicious but you're far from coherent in the Ukraine threads and I personally feel that the lazy moderating style of the Backroom has caused you to develop bad habits.

The Ukraine thread is a different thread about a different topic where I had different reasons to do different things. And mayb it was a mistake to be so persistent in it for so long. Maybe. I might troll Kadagar because he keeps calling me stupid, you can see it as sign of good will that I don't.

That's not a poor summation of the problem, but you're not offering any real solutions. We have tried "sorting out" our aid and co-operation but it's not that easy, we co-operated with the moderate secular opposition to Gaddaffi when the Libyan Civil War broke out to try to get out ahead of the Islamists and that actually worked, but then Russia and China prevented us from doing the same in Syria which eroded all the good will in the Arab world we had just built up and then Islamic State became the answer to Tyranny - meanwhile the secular moderates in Libya were unable to hold back the various tribes there and now that country has basically been split in two in a sort of internal Cold War.

Let me pose you a specific question - Greece had 50,000 immigrants from the Middle East last month, many coming via Turkey, how do we stop that because Greece can't cope with those numbers for any sustained period.

But what we did with Gaddafi lead to the coast being so open for the traffickers, what we did in Afghanistan and other countries directly lead to all the refugees. And what we did to Gaddafi also led to Syrians and others thinking we will bomb their government if they rise up. Maybe we should use a little more foresight. Even if we cannot easily rectify our past mistakes easily now, and that may be why I have no solid solution, then we can at least own up to them and help these refugees now instead of unloading the problems we helped create onto other countries. If it causes problems, see it as a lesson and try not to make such mistakes again, they obviously do backfire sometimes.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The problem still lies in the fact the Bloomberg article quotes an Academic, Daniel Pipes, who has no love for Muslims at all if you even know that sort of discourse, so yeah i don't really care what the article imagines, they're stating facts and quoting and backing it up with the words of an academic, so no its not just opinion or "americans debating" or imagining things here and it really does go the whole length of the argument in calling the delusions of the articles posted by Kadagar false.

http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...mments/384656/

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...es-non-muslims

these are to more articles on the issue, take note, the latter is a British publication, its kind of obvious the whole issue is perpetuated by delusional racists into thinking a minority that are in the single percentile controlling entire European countries.

Did you even take a look at the article I linked to?

The Swedish article quotes Academics (plural) and Swedish Police.

I realise it's in Swedish but, as I said, you could run it through Google translate or something similar and you would see that this Swedish journal is reporting the same thing about Sweden as Kad is.

Now, I don't know the Atlantic but to read the Guardian, or parts of it, you would think Julian Assange was a prisoner of conscience rather than a letch who is hiding in a foreign embassy until the statute of limitations runs out on his rape case in Sweden

Like I said, I'm not saying the journal lacks a bias but it appears more robust than Bloombery and certainly more robust than the Guardian.

I looked up Daniel Pipes - I see no reason why he should be an authority on this - the fact that he visited Paris and changed his opinion tells me he was not well informed and then altered his position based on personnal experience rather than on becoming better informed.

What you see is not always the whole truth.

[Husar]

I have a bridge to sell you

This is something that the government should keep an eye on.
I also don't want an American bridge, they're all rotten and if they still work, presidential candidates close them over personal feuds.

[Fragony]

Wut, coolest bridge there is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File...Bridge-001.jpg

[Husar]

Wut, coolest bridge there is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File...Bridge-001.jpg

I'd take that one, but expect toll booths so I can pay for the necessary repairs and a repaint in rainbow colors.

[Papewaio]

Links with stats va posts that appear as anecdotes without links.

KAV a couple of links would be great... It's a bit like Fragony's opening posts with no context...

[Fragony]

A simple google will do just fine. Kads isn't pulling anything out of his hat, I got family in Sweden that really want to leave, they never expected that they would ever want to. The countryside is as good as ever but I would skip the town(ships). It's simply baffling what multiculturalisms managed to screw up. Not because they had good intentions but simply out of narcissism.

Just a note to readers: Direct links do help a lot, and I would recommend these a lot. There have been a few occasions where google has failed due to language barriers and this is an international board. - Beskar

[Kadagar_AV]

Links with stats va posts that appear as anecdotes without links.

KAV a couple of links would be great... It's a bit like Fragony's opening posts with no context...

Pape, I already explained and linked to BRÅ.

What more do you want?

[wooly_mammoth]

Meh, here's a read I found on the matter. Make of it what you will. It basically points out to a corellation between increase of criminal activities over time since Sweden became a multicultural country. What I'd like is a clear classification of the perpetrators of sex crimes as function of ethnic origin, but I can't find one. If the article above is accurate, it points out to a number of sex-crimes commited by immigrants of african or middle-east origin that were tagged as "swedes".

In either case, to my simple mind "multiculturalism" is one of the dumbest ideas of the present age. The average human is too stupid and narrow-minded to be able to get along with "different" individuals.

[Fragony]

That's true, new generations are Sweish by default in the statistics, they also do that here in the Netherlands

[Leet Eriksson]

Pape, I already explained and linked to BRÅ.

What more do you want?

You threw a link in the thread, and didn't really do much effort to explain where in the link it proves your claims.

[Kadagar_AV]

You threw a link in the thread, and didn't really do much effort to explain where in the link it proves your claims.

BRÅ (Brottsförebyggande Rådet) is the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention, an agency under the Ministry of Justice...

There you can find basically all info you want (except for searching for pure immigrant statistics, they stopped publish that when racists started using their numbers).

I warn you though, the page is hell to search... You'd almost think they do their best to hide some statistics...

So yeah, that is the source info.

There are pages that help people summarize the statistics, but if I link those you'd just slam me for posting "hateful racist blogs", aight?

*sigh*

[AE Bravo]

Lots of misdirected hatred here. Only people you should be blaming for the Arab refuges is Saudi f'ing Arabia, not the refugees themselves. It was our foreign policy in the Gulf states and the US's total willingness to take the same direction and enhance it that got yall into this mess. We sent you the Iraqis, Saudi and Qatar's support of "moderate" Syrian opposition sent you the Syrians, and the Yemenis are well on their way I imagine. This was thanks to you also, take responsibility for once..

I gotta say I've always had respect for the fact that most Euros (mostly from NED and Sweden) I've talked to are so open about their prejudice just like us. That in itself shows how both cultures are totally uncool for each other at the present time. Shame only the needy and clingy to their culture types make their way over there. If you leave Arabia, leave your Arabness here and stop embarrassing us.

Wish we could make a deal. Lets kick all the white people out of Dubai cus we've obviously been treating these middle class thunderkunts alot better than you've been treating not so expensive living refuges. Sex on the beach, 'rape me' miniskirts getting Pakistanis all charged up, prostitution, DUIs. This is what has been offered from these immigrants and expats, you don't see me generalizing even though I damn well could because none of these crimes has ever been committed by a native.

Oil Arabs - you come to us, we don't come to you

Now stop your uppity bs generalization OP cus shit goes both ways. You know where the money at. Peace.

[Papewaio]

Pape, I already explained and linked to BRÅ.

What more do you want?

Always good to put the link in the OP and explain who the Three Letter Acronym is if it is new. Puts the information in a much better context. And yes based on that site alone it appears that crime has increased. Is it poorly established multiculturalism, economic doldrums or a combination? I assume the first, but to assume is to make an...

=][=
As for multiculturalism always failing because of the differences. I live in Australia, was born in Fiji to a Welsh mum and Kiwi dad who is of Swedish and English descent, and I'm married to a lady born in Taiwan. Australia is generally on the higher end of country well being statistics yet a quarter of us were born overseas and even more of us are second/third generation.

As for genetics just remember man and woman are the two most differen races on the planet.

[Kadagar_AV]

Always good to put the link in the OP and explain who the Three Letter Acronym is if it is new. Puts the information in a much better context. And yes based on that site alone it appears that crime has increased. Is it poorly established multiculturalism, economic doldrums or a combination? I assume the first, but to assume is to make an...

=][=
As for multiculturalism always failing because of the differences. I live in Australia, was born in Fiji to a Welsh mum and Kiwi dad who is of Swedish and English descent, and I'm married to a lady born in Taiwan. Australia is generally on the higher end of country well being statistics yet a quarter of us were born overseas and even more of us are second/third generation.

As for genetics just remember man and woman are the two most differen races on the planet.

* Australia shipped back illegal refugees coming by boat per automatic and ended the problem... No?

* Last I checked, you needed to be able to show you could support yourself to get entrance, it's not like you have gypsy beggars every 5 meters in your bigger cities, is it?

* You expect immigrants to become Australians instead of bending over.

* Your refugees are East Asians with east Asian intelligence. Try some Somalis mate.

__________________________________________________________________________
Don't compare incomparable situations.



*yes, I should have sourced the OP better, it was lazy of me, with that said, am I really known to draw numbers from my behind?*

[Leet Eriksson]

BRÅ (Brottsförebyggande Rådet) is the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention, an agency under the Ministry of Justice...

There you can find basically all info you want (except for searching for pure immigrant statistics, they stopped publish that when racists started using their numbers).

I warn you though, the page is hell to search... You'd almost think they do their best to hide some statistics...

So yeah, that is the source info.

There are pages that help people summarize the statistics, but if I link those you'd just slam me for posting "hateful racist blogs", aight?

*sigh*

You think you can throw links and throwing your arms in the air without doing homework? you claimed they're ruining your country, prove it isn't BS.

[Husar]

http://www.civitas.org.uk/crime/crim...ecdjan2012.pdf

Actually Australia is the rape capital of the world according to these statistics.
Why are Germany and the Netherlands so low? I thought they also accept too many immigrants?
Canada and Japan never saw any immigrants, very low rape rates. Apparently Eastern Europe is perfectly safe for women as well, they hardly accept immigrants.
Germany, Netherlands and Switzerland prove that a superior host culture can decrease rapes despite high immigration.
There is a lot we can learn here.

Why are the cases of robbery so low in Sweden if the immigrants want all the money? Given the assault rate they probably just want to beat up the natives for fun. That's pretty mean indeed. And Sweden is way too low on the punitive scale. The US are much, much harsher, a success proven by being only number 4 in rape rate.

[Kadagar_AV]

You think you can throw links and throwing your arms in the air without doing homework? you claimed they're ruining your country, prove it isn't BS.

Troll.

http://www.civitas.org.uk/crime/crim...ecdjan2012.pdf

Actually Australia is the rape capital of the world according to these statistics.
Why are Germany and the Netherlands so low? I thought they also accept too many immigrants?
Canada and Japan never saw any immigrants, very low rape rates. Apparently Eastern Europe is perfectly safe for women as well, they hardly accept immigrants.
Germany, Netherlands and Switzerland prove that a superior host culture can decrease rapes despite high immigration.
There is a lot we can learn here.

Why are the cases of robbery so low in Sweden if the immigrants want all the money? Given the assault rate they probably just want to beat up the natives for fun. That's pretty mean indeed. And Sweden is way too low on the punitive scale. The US are much, much harsher, a success proven by being only number 4 in rape rate.

Now you are just rambling.

[Husar]

Now you are just rambling.

Is that your way of saying that you're sorry that Sweden isn't the rape capital after all?

[Kadagar_AV]

Is that your way of saying that you're sorry that Sweden isn't the rape capital after all?

Now you are just trolling.

REALLY Husar, sharpen up.

[Husar]

Now you are just trolling.

REALLY Husar, sharpen up.

You haven't said anything about the statistics shown.
For example why Australia has a higher statistic, do so many Africans arrive there?
Why do some other countries have far lower statistics? Why is the robbery statistic so low for Sweden?

If you avoid all this using more personal attacks, aren't you the one trolling?

[Kadagar_AV]

You haven't said anything about the statistics shown.
For example why Australia has a higher statistic, do so many Africans arrive there?
Why do some other countries have far lower statistics? Why is the robbery statistic so low for Sweden?

If you avoid all this using more personal attacks, aren't you the one trolling?

Well, there is that, that you already in this thread trolled...

* If you think Australia has a higher statistic, you do something wrong.

* Robbery statistics are low in your mind, maybe.


Really Husar, you should get a warning point for trolling.


Robbery 1987: 3939 reported.
Robbery 2011: 9719 reported. Foreigners make up roughly 70% of the accused.

*but yes, Swedes seem to have the intelligence and/or stiff upper lip to prevent robberies better than most*

[Husar]

Well, there is that, that you already in this thread trolled...

* If you think Australia has a higher statistic, you do something wrong.

* Robbery statistics are low in your mind, maybe.


Really Husar, you should get a warning point for trolling.

I posted a link with statistics, you can read it.

Instead you accuse me of making things up?
I do not just think it is higher in Australia, it is in the statistics I posted...

And then you accuse me of trolling when you can't even or don't even bother to read a simple statistic that I post?
I did not make the statistic.

How about you comment on the statistic and not on me for once?

[wooly_mammoth]

Apparently Eastern Europe is perfectly safe for women as well, they hardly accept immigrants.

Yeah, here's the problem with the statistics. If the crime doesn't get reported, it never shows up. In Romania, at least in the rural part it's still common sense that a man can beat the crap out of a woman to straighten her out and a legal complaint at the police never actually shows up (if they even have a police office to begin with). It's the same with rape, a lot of women are afraid or ashamed to file a complaint or don't even realize that they can do that. While it's not really like having rapists lurking around every corner, I'd hardly say it's a safe place for women.

[Kadagar_AV]

I posted a link with statistics, you can read it.

Instead you accuse me of making things up?
I do not just think it is higher in Australia, it is in the statistics I posted...

And then you accuse me of trolling when you can't even or don't even bother to read a simple statistic that I post?
I did not make the statistic.

How about you comment on the statistic and not on me for once?

It's because you have lost credibility with me and I wont be bothered with what you write or source till someone else brings it up as something to note?

I choose what I spend my time on, trolls isn't on the list. You wouldn't even have got this reply hadn't you done so much for the site technically.

I told you already.

[Husar]

It's because you have lost credibility with me and I wont be bothered with what you write or source till someone else brings it up as something to note?

I choose what I spend my time on, trolls isn't on the list. You wouldn't even have got this reply hadn't you done so much for the site technically.

I told you already.

Okay, you would still rather avoid the topic I see, have fun then.

[Kadagar_AV]

Okay, you would still rather avoid the topic I see, have fun then.

Not at all.

I just wait for some clear headed individuals to share the view and I will be all ears :)

[Tuuvi]

From that long post of mine, where I more or less refuted each and every point you had made... Your only comment is that I mentioned a TW game on a TW forum?

It was more used to show your lack of understanding, than as a legitimate source, surely you must have got that?

You had written:



That is just plain wrong. You for some reason, political agenda or just lack of knowledge, try to normalize the MASSIVE immigration we are seeing.

Last we had even comparable numbers of immigration to Europe, it caused the fall of the first democratic(ish-prototype) empire, caused widespread degeneration, and generally resulted in what is called the "Dark Ages".

So, well, get your facts straight.

I wasn't the one you were replying to, that was Idaho. And besides that I just thought you made a silly comment, I wasn't trying to argue your point.