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  1. #1
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    One notes that the BBC is still calling them refugees but the UN calls them migrants - which highlights the crucial point that most of these people aren't interested in going home.

    So, we need to make their homes more attractive - if they're so intent on living in Europe maybe Europe should just run the Middle East?

    I'm not seriously suggesting the EU try to recreate Pax Romanum but it's the logical conclusion of the immigrants' own thinking - they are coming from the Old African and Levantine provinces into the European ones. Clearly - they want to be like us, they want working roads and sewers and expensive, pointless, public buildings and a society run by an apathetic elite - they want to be MORE ROMAN.
    And this has often been a problem in parts of Europe for the last c. 50 years. Immigrants want in essence their own country to be economically prosperous with good infrastructure and since it isn't they'll recreate that elsewhere. They would rather stay where they are and do not really want to be part of the new country they find themselves.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Attachment 16104
    "Refugees"

    also, these "refugees" would have been safe in turkey or Greece or Hungary, or Saudi arbia for that matter. Then pray tell why they are flocking to Sweden Germany and the U.K.
    Simple questjon simple answer, things are easier there for them. Once they made it there they are in for all the free money. 400 in the UK, more in Sweden.
    Last edited by Fragony; 08-27-2015 at 19:32.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Attachment 16104
    "Refugees"

    also, these "refugees" would have been safe in turkey or Greece or Hungary, or Saudi arbia for that matter. Then pray tell why they are flocking to Sweden Germany and the U.K.
    They are even safer in Germany, there are even rumors that Greece and possibly Italy give them money to pay for the travels to other countries as they don't want all of them to stay. Not to forget that the EU does not want to them to flock to just two southern countries, it's called solidarity. Turkey is incredibly selfish anyway as we could see with them bombing our kurdish allies first chace they got, wouldn't be surprised if they also happily lend them a hand to have fewer camps on their own turf.

    Research has also shown that refugees also prefer countries with existing refugee networks of their countrymen, compare it to exchange students typically hanging out a lot with other exchange students because it is easier, sounds like typical human behavior then, no?
    In Germany they get less money than an unemployed German on Hartz IV, and Germans complain a lot that Hartz IV is not enough to live, can't be such a paradise then, yet we take a whole lot of refugees who actually want to come here. They are also not allowed to work for at least three months and can't get a work permit if a German is ready to take the same job. So if they're just coming to steal our jobs or for the abundant money, they may be in for a surprise, and yet they keep coming.

    Apparently in Sweden they get a room in the Hilton and in the UK they get 1000 pounds a day for each baby or something, but many of them still stay in Germany with the Nazi-like rules for some reason. Oh and as long as their sttus is unclear, they get no money at all here, they have to live in camps and have to order food and other things from the authorities up to a certain budget. Thre was a hunger strike in one of these camps because they weren't quite fond of these luxurious conditions. But yeah, we're being too nice to them, actual concentration camps would probably be more suitable.


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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa

    Just saw this, the german government called in the army to deal with the refugee crisis, finally!

    Finally they are doing something!



    Luxurious tents are too luxurious though I assume. Everybody will want to have one now.
    Last edited by Husar; 08-27-2015 at 20:47.


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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa

    Many immigrants appear to be indignant that they are not allowed to go where they like - cries that they "are not animals" heard when overloaded facilities break - scant gratitude for y'know, not being shot at and whatnot.

    If they really do think that there is practically a concierge waiting from them to help them to their new house and job is it any surprise that they're coming over? There have been many migrant streams through the ages that were caused in essence by the people involved being misled.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa

    it's called solidarity
    Aw man you crack me up with your wicked sense of humour!
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Many immigrants appear to be indignant that they are not allowed to go where they like - cries that they "are not animals" heard when overloaded facilities break - scant gratitude for y'know, not being shot at and whatnot.

    If they really do think that there is practically a concierge waiting from them to help them to their new house and job is it any surprise that they're coming over? There have been many migrant streams through the ages that were caused in essence by the people involved being misled.

    Given that the local population in Greece and Italy often tries to help them and the camps are actually overloaded because the governments there can't or don't want to bring them to the mainland fast enough, I would be careful with judging it from afar. If they are kept in horrible conditions on purpose, "well, at least we don't kill them..." is a very low standard for people who claim to have the moral high ground.
    Not to forget that the villagers whose places they land in often seem to agree and to help them as much as they can, they can probably judge the situation better than someone who looks at a few pictures on the internet.


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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa

    I do not claim to have nor want to have the "moral high ground" which invariably is a state of self delusion - are starving masses a new problem or merely one that has finally come to the shores of Europe? Those who are so quick to pity them have not been giving most of their disposable income to charities - and in fact few if any still have.

    The governments of Greece and Italy are pretty poor at the best of times and given that the standard they should have is better than where they've come from is the whole point of being a refugee since they are fleeing a situation where they are likely to die. Sorting the logistics of 30,000 on an island right on Turkey's doorstep is no easy feat at the best of times - and as you say these persons have hardy arrived via established channels.

    The locals do help them. And as always wanting to think of oneself as giving and wonderful rather palls when all those people remain and it starts impacting on one's livelihood and future. Rather than room sharing with these people it appears special trains are laid on to ensure that the problem is passed on as soon as humanly possible.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  9. #9
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    I do not claim to have nor want to have the "moral high ground" which invariably is a state of self delusion - are starving masses a new problem or merely one that has finally come to the shores of Europe? Those who are so quick to pity them have not been giving most of their disposable income to charities - and in fact few if any still have.
    That might be a good argument if charities were the ideal solution.
    Quite a few people try to stop supporting the causes for war in these regions however.
    IMO charities are just a bandaid when proper solutions have already failed.

    As for the age of the problem, see it as a stonger reminder that we did and still do cause problems and that having human rights does not just mean your right to use a smartphone.

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    The governments of Greece and Italy are pretty poor at the best of times and given that the standard they should have is better than where they've come from is the whole point of being a refugee since they are fleeing a situation where they are likely to die. Sorting the logistics of 30,000 on an island right on Turkey's doorstep is no easy feat at the best of times - and as you say these persons have hardy arrived via established channels.
    Yes, but you basically seem to say that living in a small cage is better than dying so they should be thankful of the cage, at least they can now turn around their own axis alive. I'd call that a serious lack of compassion, but then again you've always seemed rather cold, so maybe we'll just have to disagree there as I'd treat them as human beings and not as cattle in a small cage just because it means they're not getting shot anymore. By spreading them out into more countries and locations you can treat them better, integration works better and so on. And while it may not be easy to get them off the islands for the countries involved, other countries could help. If we can give Greece billions of Euros, we can also lend them a ship or two.

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    The locals do help them. And as always wanting to think of oneself as giving and wonderful rather palls when all those people remain and it starts impacting on one's livelihood and future. Rather than room sharing with these people it appears special trains are laid on to ensure that the problem is passed on as soon as humanly possible.
    What else should they do? See how many fit onto the island until the first people inevitably drop off the edges? Put them into even tighter containment camps?
    As for room sharing, I've never demanded that, but:
    http://www.amnesty.org.au/refugees/comments/28555/
    https://euobserver.com/beyond-brussels/129893
    http://www.refugees-welcome.net


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