IMMIGRATION thread

[rory_20_uk]

I do not claim to have nor want to have the "moral high ground" which invariably is a state of self delusion - are starving masses a new problem or merely one that has finally come to the shores of Europe? Those who are so quick to pity them have not been giving most of their disposable income to charities - and in fact few if any still have.

The governments of Greece and Italy are pretty poor at the best of times and given that the standard they should have is better than where they've come from is the whole point of being a refugee since they are fleeing a situation where they are likely to die. Sorting the logistics of 30,000 on an island right on Turkey's doorstep is no easy feat at the best of times - and as you say these persons have hardy arrived via established channels.

The locals do help them. And as always wanting to think of oneself as giving and wonderful rather palls when all those people remain and it starts impacting on one's livelihood and future. Rather than room sharing with these people it appears special trains are laid on to ensure that the problem is passed on as soon as humanly possible.

[Husar]

I do not claim to have nor want to have the "moral high ground" which invariably is a state of self delusion - are starving masses a new problem or merely one that has finally come to the shores of Europe? Those who are so quick to pity them have not been giving most of their disposable income to charities - and in fact few if any still have.

That might be a good argument if charities were the ideal solution.
Quite a few people try to stop supporting the causes for war in these regions however.
IMO charities are just a bandaid when proper solutions have already failed.

As for the age of the problem, see it as a stonger reminder that we did and still do cause problems and that having human rights does not just mean your right to use a smartphone.

The governments of Greece and Italy are pretty poor at the best of times and given that the standard they should have is better than where they've come from is the whole point of being a refugee since they are fleeing a situation where they are likely to die. Sorting the logistics of 30,000 on an island right on Turkey's doorstep is no easy feat at the best of times - and as you say these persons have hardy arrived via established channels.

Yes, but you basically seem to say that living in a small cage is better than dying so they should be thankful of the cage, at least they can now turn around their own axis alive. I'd call that a serious lack of compassion, but then again you've always seemed rather cold, so maybe we'll just have to disagree there as I'd treat them as human beings and not as cattle in a small cage just because it means they're not getting shot anymore. By spreading them out into more countries and locations you can treat them better, integration works better and so on. And while it may not be easy to get them off the islands for the countries involved, other countries could help. If we can give Greece billions of Euros, we can also lend them a ship or two.

The locals do help them. And as always wanting to think of oneself as giving and wonderful rather palls when all those people remain and it starts impacting on one's livelihood and future. Rather than room sharing with these people it appears special trains are laid on to ensure that the problem is passed on as soon as humanly possible.

What else should they do? See how many fit onto the island until the first people inevitably drop off the edges? Put them into even tighter containment camps?
As for room sharing, I've never demanded that, but:
http://www.amnesty.org.au/refugees/comments/28555/
https://euobserver.com/beyond-brussels/129893
http://www.refugees-welcome.net

[Montmorency]

The refugee question is so difficult that it cannot be simplified to a mere contest between compassion and expedience.

The problem is so difficult precisely because international bodies have so little power as such.

Individual countries cannot develop effective policies for managing, averting, or diverting refugee migrations, because it becomes a matter of international security in which all countries affected are trying to impose the least burden on themselves as everyone else will let them get away with.

Thus, each country's response boils down to "do nothing". The refugees keep coming in, piecemeal hotfixes are applied inconsistently - until the kettle boils over, governments just don't have leverage to apply systematic policies.

You might notice some parallels with banking/finance regulation and the 2008 crisis...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The refugee question is so difficult that it cannot be simplified to a mere contest between compassion and expedience.

The problem is so difficult precisely because international bodies have so little power as such.

Individual countries cannot develop effective policies for managing, averting, or diverting refugee migrations, because it becomes a matter of international security in which all countries affected are trying to impose the least burden on themselves as everyone else will let them get away with.

Thus, each country's response boils down to "do nothing". The refugees keep coming in, piecemeal hotfixes are applied inconsistently - until the kettle boils over, governments just don't have leverage to apply systematic policies.

You might notice some parallels with banking/finance regulation and the 2008 crisis...

Me, I'm seeing parallels with Total War: Attila.

Apparently Europe is expected to receive 100,000 migrants this month who will try to claim refugee status. Assume an average of half that a month and you get 600,000, which is already fewer than Germany is expecting this year. Now suppose this continues for another three years, bearing in mind that Europe already has a large number of immigrants from outside the EU - the UK alone has a population which is 13% foriegn born.

The key point is that, whatever you believe, this isn't sustainable unless you're willing to accept systemic collapse on a regional level in some countries, first in Italy and Greece, then in the likes of Germany and Sweden. Sweden has already taken in so many immigrants that the law runs thin in some areas, the UK has already become a major recruiting ground for IS...

I have a horrible fealing we are actually approaching that horrible event horizon when things genuinely slide out of our control and nobody knows what will happen then.

[Fragony]

A lot of violence against immigrants in Germany lately, mostly in the old eastern-part

[Viking]

A lot of violence against immigrants in Germany lately, mostly in the old eastern-part

I am sure Husar will agree with me that we must blame it on the suppression their recent ancestors experienced under the DDR. We cannot give them responsibility for what they do themselves, that would be inconsiderate.

[Husar]

I am sure Husar will agree with me that we must blame it on the suppression their recent ancestors experienced under the DDR. We cannot give them responsibility for what they do themselves, that would be inconsiderate.

Indeed, the DDR did not want to talk about the Nazi past as a similarly suppressive regime itself, as a result, such nationalist tendencies were allowed to prosper and not talked about, not engaged with and the myths not disspelled. Additionally, the DDR was still using machinery from 1945 in 1990, which didn't really help with the unemployment rate once it entered the real world, the socio-economic conditions these people grew up under were not exactly ideal. And then the local politicians also did not do quite enough to change this. There is some progress but obviously some people are still stuck in the stupid. Their leaders can usually be blamed for it as they are often rather intelligent and know exactl what they do and how to manipulate those unfortunate souls of lower intelligence and with a fitting socio-economic background that makes them vulnerable to such ideals and manipulation.

The latest tactics revolve around pretending not to be Neo-Nazis at first and recruiting easily impressable school children already, under the disguise of being some cool youth groups where people are friends and support eachother. There was a documentary from Poland that showed how it worked on a girl there.
Once in the scene it is also hard to get out due to the fear of violence by you "friends" should you "betray" them.

[Montmorency]

, I don't know - Refugee Cap & Trade?