IMMIGRATION thread

[Viking]

http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49c3646c125.html

That's one way of defining refugees.

I'm proabaly stating the obvious here, but I think that if a migration surge like the one we are seeing now can be caused merely by people wanting a better life, we would have seen it happen years ago.

In the case of Syrians, it is not merely the want for a better life. The war is a spark.

[Montmorency]

The momnet they are outside the counrty they are refugees. The moment they start to pick and choose the place where they will head to expressing their preferences depending on the welfare of that place they become migrants.

So they're both, glad you understand.

In the case of Syrians, it is not merely the want for a better life. The war is a spark.

I agree. In fact, this is a pillar of my position on technical dual-status.

What I see is that you would like them to be identified as non-refugees to avoid any obligations toward them. But isn't that a different question, what sort of obligations countries owe to refugees, and under what circumstances?

[Husar]

That's one way of defining refugees.

Yeh, it's not like a lot of countries agree with it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conven...convention.PNG

[Tuuvi]

Just as one might object to a comparison to last days of the Roman empire, one might object to a comparison to the US.

The most obvious difference is that the US is nation of immigrants. With the exception of 'native' Americans, most Americans can say that their ancestors came from this or that European or African country at that or that time. That means new immigrants don't look that out of place in the US. In comparison, my own ancestors (minus some Danish ones) might have come to this area ~ 10 000 years ago. Most of the population in Europe have a connection to the countries they occupy through thousands of years. This creates a schism between new arrivals and ancient arrivals, unless there is assimilation.

Some other things:

- Europe is filling up - both literally and non-literally. Some places really are getting crowded, but there are also national parks (and more rural areas not legally recognised) that people want to preserve, necessary farmland, opposition to further urbanisation and areas that are simply inhospitable. I imagine things looked rather different in the US over a 100 years ago; both physically and in terms of attitudes.
- there is still a significant split in the US population between the original natives, the population of European origin and the population of African origin
- the cultures where the immigrants came from were typically not too different from the cultures that the current Americans themselves came from

That latter point seems especially relevant. I am not aware of Europeans not integrating properly in other European countries being a common problem (international criminals are a problem, but that's largely a separate topic - they take advantage of the open borders), despite there being significant migration internally in Europe.

As the picture shows some Americans felt the same about immigrants as many Europeans in this thread do today. It was believed that Southern and Eastern Europeans were incompatible with American culture and values and that the new wave of migrants threatened to destroy American society. We can look at the US today and see that the these immigrants were able to assimilate just fine but at the time Southern Europeans were seen to be as alien as Muslims are today.

I agree the two situations aren't exactly comparable, and as I said before I'm not trying to make an argument for unrestricted immigration, but the sentiments expressed by turn of the century Americans and modern Europeans are so similar I think they warrant consideration. Basically what I'm trying to say is Middle Eastern immigrants might not be as scary as we think they are.

Yes, take in mind that only very few are from minorities that are at actual risk, some are. But most 'refugees' are sunni-mislims who aren't hunted down by fellow sunni-muslims. We should help the Kurds, the christians, the muslims of a different persuation.

The Assad regime has been systematically murdering dissidents for years, and it bombs rebel held civilian areas to make them uninhabitable and force the residents to flee to regime held areas. Being a Sunni Muslim in Syria is no guarantee of safety. Not to mention the risk of getting caught in the crossfire that anyone living in a war zone faces.

[Fragony]

Sure enough, but it was that plumb eastblock farmhorse Merkel's blunder that spawned the horde of migrants, not going to call them refugees as most aren't. Migrants aren't exactly popular with the real refugees, what they ran away from is comming with them. Tensions are really high among them, and where they go. Rape and intimidation is rampant.

[Husar]

Sure enough, but it was that plumb eastblock farmhorse Merkel's blunder that spawned the horde of migrants

What blunder?

[Fragony]

What blunder?

Shelving the Dublin-treaty of course. That's what caused this unmanageble wave of migrants, not the civil-war. She realised her mistake by now and she leaves Romania and Croatia with the troubles. Even demands that other EU-members solve the problems, OR ELSE

[Husar]

Shelving the Dublin-treaty of course. That's what caused this unmanageble wave of migrants, not the civil-war. She realised her mistake by now and she leaves Romania and Croatia with the troubles. Even demands that other EU-members solve the problems, OR ELSE

That sounds like complete nonsense since she opened the border long after the border countries were already knee-deep in refugees and the huge numbers were already known. Thousands of people had already drowned by the time she did anything. What opened the floodgates was the lack of stable countries in the south and east of the Mediterranean. And at least in the south, it was caused by eh, Sarkozy and Cameron. Syria is the fault of Cheney, Sarkozy, Blair and Putin. You can't seriously believe that things Merkel says are the top news in Syria when the country is in the middle of a bloody civil war.

Some of them also come from the camps of course, mostly because they are not fond of spending the next 20 years of their lives in a tent without permission to get a job or find a proper home. It's easy to say refugees should accept that because at least they're safe now if you're not in their situation.

[Viking]

What I see is that you would like them to be identified as non-refugees to avoid any obligations toward them. But isn't that a different question, what sort of obligations countries owe to refugees, and under what circumstances?

I suspect both elements might need some adjustment - what a refugee is, and how they should be treated.

Yeh, it's not like a lot of countries agree with it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conven...convention.PNG

I didn't sign it. As with any topic, we are free to debate definitions..

I agree the two situations aren't exactly comparable, and as I said before I'm not trying to make an argument for unrestricted immigration, but the sentiments expressed by turn of the century Americans and modern Europeans are so similar I think they warrant consideration. Basically what I'm trying to say is Middle Eastern immigrants might not be as scary as we think they are.

Well, the Italian Mafia managed to hitch a ride with the Italian immigrants, and violent Islamism is hitching a ride with Muslim immigrants, so I can see some immediate similarities there.

[Fragony]

Open debate, wouldnd't that be nice if there would be such a thing

Juncker: most peple don't uderstand what we decide, if there isn't any protest/riots we will do what we wanted to. (vvery loose translation)

Just few quotes from druncke- I mean Junkcer https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Juncker

not scary at all, not stupid either

[Husar]

Shelterring one myself, don't lecture me, it's my own decision to do that. Merkel gave them a very big carrot, and it was heard, total rage on social-media, COME TO GERMANY!!! And they did. She is going to remembered for that, and not in the way she wanted.

You mean you harbor a migrant and complain online that Merkel invited them? Or are you saying that you harbor a refugee and that you can somehow tell them apart? If so, are you harboring a family or one guy and aren't the guys coming without family all work migrants according to you?

I suspect both elements might need some adjustment - what a refugee is, and how they should be treated.

I didn't sign it. As with any topic, we are free to debate definitions..

Would you care to give us your definition then or are you just against the current one?

[Fragony]

You mean you harbor a migrant and complain online that Merkel invited them? [

Yeah I am pretty'much actually doing what you don't, all opinion. Nobody who is in need needs an opinion

[Husar]

Yeah I am pretty'much actually doing what you don't, all opinion. Nobody who is in need needs an opinion

What's your point? That poor people shouldn't be allowed to vote?

[Fragony]

You mean you harbor a migrant and complain online that Merkel invited them? Or are you saying that you harbor a refugee and that you can somehow tell them apart? If so, are you harboring a family or one guy and aren't the guys coming without family all work migrants according to you

It's my personal choice, not an obligation. just helping someone. Nobody told me to do that.

[Husar]

It's my personal choice, not an obligation. just helping someone. Nobody told me to do that.

Yes, but you were apparently saying that because I am not rich enough to afford a boat to house a migrant, my opinion is not worth as much as yours. Either that or I have no idea what you were saying.

[Fragony]

Yes, but you were apparently saying that because I am not rich enough to afford a boat to house a migrant, my opinion is not worth as much as yours. Either that or I have no idea what you were saying.

Don't have thar boat anymore, but I shelterted people there as well yes. I justt have litttle patience with people who do absolutily nothing themselve but know exactly what others shoiuld do. I only do it to help, not to feel nice.