IMMIGRATION thread

[AE Bravo]

"Not yet" is relative - you may wish to look at Arab discourse at the turn of the last Century whilst still under Ottoman rule. You are of course correct that the lack of democracy is partly because they general populace not enamoured of it, and don't appear to understand the concept.

The concept is understood but it is feared. This democratic peace theory destroyed Iraq. It requires changing of norms and the implications of that are unknown and should be feared across the middle east. Constitutional monarchy is the best one can hope for right now and it's the only realistic reform.

Now, perhaps you can see why I don't want people like that in my country, because my country is weak in many ways. Civil society in the UK and much of Europe is already fractured, we're just about holding it together here but if you look at our history over the last fifty years we're in danger of entering systemic decline.

Just because democracy may not be appealing to them at home doesn't mean they won't like it in an environment like Europe. The EU masses need to recognize that this is nothing more than gang culture and social isolation. Two Somali girls tried to join ISIS a few months ago in this state (colorado), but Islam is not the problem here. Yes it can be a source of violence for people with years of pent-up aggression or ignorance but condemning the belief system in its entirety is totally useless because fifty years from now the belief system will not be the same. 200 years ago my ancestors were worshipping the moon or venerating sacred trees while calling themselves Muslims, it keeps changing for better or worse.

Like I said - fall of Rome - it only takes a generation.

Crack down on the angry beards. They are the ones preaching the Islamization of the world and that the Syrian war is god's plan to biologically replace the infidel offspring with Muslim ones (this was actually the sermon in Medinah last week, again shows this is all ksa). They are successfully intimidating you, this is what they expect it's Jihadi trolling 101.

When Saudi Arabia becomes weak and its international standing lowered, they will harvest the rewards of students of this hate speech in Europe to maintain its religious power. Ideological leverage this is how they do it's been causing chaos on a regional level for 60 years.

To this I should have added "acceptance of maintaining or changing the regime through violence".

In Saudi probably, nowhere else I could think of. Violent human rights abuses are pretty unheard of, its mostly imprisonment and at the worst deportation. These people have families so you wouldn't want to alienate them, saying they broke the law and exiled them is already overboard.

We guarantee enough to keep body and soul together, not to live well.

When I look around I see the body doing well. People are happy and see the change over the years. It's interesting to witness what will become of it because right now it is the beacon of civilization in the middle east and I hope it keeps it up so everyone can eat their words. These countries have much to prove and one day hopefully they can distance themselves from the kingdom.

Matter of perspective - I assume in most Gulf states that if a woman wears a knee-length skirt and has her their unbround there'll be mutter of "deserved it" if she's raped.

Whoa. No. Cultural shaming on the rapist actually for being a thirsty loser with no pickup game.

One thing I've come across talking to Turks, Arabs, and Africans is that a woman's hnour is protected by the men in her family, rather than by society in general. So a woman needs an escort in certain situations even in public lest she be assumed to be "fair game".

This is a family thing. Rich people in Asia or the west have the same attitude. Kuwait and Oman don't care about this much, neither does the UAE as long as the family is okay with it.

As I recall the Koran, or the Hadith, specifies that a Christian man's word is worth 1/3 of that of a Muslim man's in court - a woman's word is worth nothing - I believe this is actually a fact of law in states other than Saudi Arabia. The problem with this is obvious as soon as a Christian man tries to bring a prosecution against a Muslim for raping his daughter.

1. Not the Qur'an

2. The Hadith tells me to drink camelpiss, I'd like to see all the clerics do this.

And I don't think what you said is true anyway.

Matter of perspective, and I think your perspective is outmoded by roughly a century.

Back up your updated perspective with sources.

installed by the British who were more inclined toward a more open society. About the only post-WW1 monarchy from that settlement to survive is Jordan.

Jordan is also arguable the safest and most progressive country in he Middle East.

But Britain installed all Gulf monarchs. I've been to Jordan, I love the people and the political system but that country is a joke in hindsight. It's just there. I think some British guy accidentally poured some coffee on the map and wala there it is JORDAN. Out of all the arbitrarily drawn borders...

See - I don't get this. Isn't not consuming alcohol a major element of Islam, I get that it's not THE defining feature but I still don't understand how it is that so many Muslims in the ME seem to drink so much - certainly Muslims I have met in the UK generally don't.

Those same people won't tell you that the companions of the prophet used to drink all the time before it was regarded as a sin, and even then Islam's birth still had Muslims that drink. I pray for a day that these people realize that these were laid-back dudes who were sinners and human, and they were not persecuted for it until uptight caliphs came along.

All you have to do to be a Muslim is declare your faith.