IMMIGRATION thread

[Viking]

The Dutch language in Indonesia died shortly after independence. In fact, there is no longer a native ethnic-Dutch population in Indonesia. This is not the case simply because some native ethnic-Dutch left the region after the war and independence. It is because they mixed and assimilated so thoroughly that they simply stopped passing on their Dutch language and culture within a single generation.

Admittedly, the role played by population proportions is large. After independence, only a few tens of thousands of "full-blooded" Dutch remained in the long-term. There were already some hundreds of thousands of Indo-Dutch (i.e. "mixed"), but their assimilated identity had already been forming for centuries. Nevertheless, it is one of a few notable cases of entire European colonial populations 'going native', so to speak.

As far as I can see, the war in Indonesia and subsequent exodus of Dutch people played a huge role here; so this lesson does not seem overly relevant when calculating the odds of e.g. Syrians assimilating in Europe. When you have great disturbance in a country, things work differently.

They could do that in Libya, even though they never even accomplished it in Syria - their backyard?

The rebel front in Syria never collapsed. If it had collapsed in Libya, and then IS managed to enter the scene and open a front, then yes, I think they could recruit efficiently from many Libyan rebel groups (and they presumably do recruit from other rebel groups in Syria thanks to their impressive performance there).

Before they started getting funded by nato? No. When you arm islamists you best believe they’re gonna run with it forever. In Libya everyone and their dog knew who's boss as soon as it happened - Islamists, taking over your neighborhood and telling you its time to atone for the country's sins.

Islamists were the most organized armed groups, they were trained in turkey, and had the support of nato and its lackeys.

Which islamists are you actually talking about? According to some, the forces currently at play in Libya have very different motives.

Denying that this is a failed NATO operation is laughable at this point.

Not by normal definitions of the word operation. The NATO operation ended shortly after Gaddafi was killed, and its primary aim was to remove Gaddafi from power, which took just a few months. After that, NATO largely had a passive role.

That what happened next may not have been what NATO leaders hoped for is another matter.

Uniting Libyans? I don’t see any of this happening.

Yet they united against Gaddafi.

I disagree.
Do you really consider Europe non-Muslim? What about numerous Turks in Germany (where most immigrants seem to be heading) to say nothing of "non-Muslim" France? So Syrians are likely to find in Europe as many things in common as they would in Kazakhstan.

Turks in Germany are immigrants, they are an example of the phenomenon I am talking about.

Some European countries might have Muslim populations that can be counted as native, but they are still in the minority (or just a big fraction); so any assimilation into these groups doesn't eliminate the fundamental issue. Albania (and Kosovo) is probably the closest you get to a Muslim-majority country in Europe, and, yeah, I believe Syrian refugees would be more likely to assimilate in Albania than e.g. in Northern Europe over time. But it would also depend on how capable of and interested in the state is when it comes to integrating the refugees into society; a poorly-integrated group is likely to stay separate.