IMMIGRATION thread

[AE Bravo]

http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=751fb8c0dea3

Why are they allowed to make this much noise? It's a sensitive time as it is. Very disrespectful and not helpful to the cause.

I live in a country where migrants make up 80% of the population but they do not overstep their boundaries like this. There's a lot to be scared of honestly.

[Viking]

It is interesting to note that the convention was originally made for the benefit of European refugees. Now that the flux has reversed Europe wants to block it. How wonderfully selfish when you only want the benefits one way.

That's pure nonsense. European countries and European migrant nations were helping Europeans - the flux has in no way reversed. Most appropriately, Syria hasn't even signed that thing.

[Sarmatian]

Eh, technically the Iraqi, libyan and Syrian movers could be legally counted as refugees as they are fleeing war zones, though I don't think all of of the reasons for moving will have been be self preservation.

The rest of the influx though are certainly migrants.

Tehnically?

[CrossLOPER]

Tehnically?

They aren't white Christians, so technically that aren't human.

[Greyblades]

Funny.

Under the definition I am used to the only migrants that are counted as refugees are ones fleeing from probable death/enslavement/violence/etc. Those nations I and crandar mentioned are the nations where that applies.

I say technically because some have a more vague and/or broader definition

[Husar]

http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=751fb8c0dea3

Why are they allowed to make this much noise? It's a sensitive time as it is. Very disrespectful and not helpful to the cause.

I live in a country where migrants make up 80% of the population but they do not overstep their boundaries like this. There's a lot to be scared of honestly.

They have a right to demonstrate, especially if they are citizens. I have no idea what they are demonstrating for though, if it is entirely in Arabic it's no wonder that they alienate the Germans.

[AE Bravo]

The death of culture.

Oh well, all good things....

that.

It's about biting the hand that feeds you. Can't relate.

Also chill this is German culture it's gonna pack it up and move on, much more formidable than American culture.

[Husar]

It's about biting the hand that feeds you. Can't relate.

Biting? I heard Arabic singing and saw Arabic placards, for all I know they were praising Germany.

[AE Bravo]

What a great way to assimilate to a culture that is the polar opposite of yours, parade its streets.

[Fragony]

What a great way to assimilate to a culture that is the polar opposite of yours, parade its streets.

Hussie has a good heart, I think he is terribly mistaken though.

[Greyblades]

I think that protest might be an palestinian protest march:

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...ntifada-426010

[Husar]

What a great way to assimilate to a culture that is the polar opposite of yours, parade its streets.

Hussie has a good heart, I think he is terribly mistaken though.

You don't even realize when I'm making fun of/mocking them?

If they want my well-meaning attention, they have to speak German...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=751fb8c0dea3

Why are they allowed to make this much noise? It's a sensitive time as it is. Very disrespectful and not helpful to the cause.

I live in a country where migrants make up 80% of the population but they do not overstep their boundaries like this. There's a lot to be scared of honestly.

Allowed?

For the same reason a German is allowed - I assume that, as in other European countries, the basic right of demonstration and protest is extended to all.

They have a right to demonstrate, especially if they are citizens. I have no idea what they are demonstrating for though, if it is entirely in Arabic it's no wonder that they alienate the Germans.

I rather think the intention is to demonstrate to raise fear.

that.

It's about biting the hand that feeds you. Can't relate.

Also chill this is German culture it's gonna pack it up and move on, much more formidable than American culture.

German culture is unlikely to do anything but refuse to acknowledge the protesters, which is essentially what Husar is doing. Of course, it may get to a point where the Germans feel generally threatened and just kill all the Muslims, but we're a ways off that yet.

As I said, I think the purpose of that demonstration is to raise fear in Germany, so that Muslims are more alienated among the Germans and are therefore easier to radicalise. Once they are radicalised they can be shipped out to IS or simply used to ferment more domestic unrest in Germany.

the end goal, of course, is the extinction of everything not Muslim.

If one accepts that non Muslims are evil then the course of action is entirely rational.

Tehnically?

Technically refugees, in the international sense, are those fleeing persecution rather than those merely fleeing conflict. Something of a grey area to be sure but in the UK we have generally housed the "opposition" to the regime, and not the mass of the oppressed.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You don't even realize when I'm making fun of/mocking them?

If they want my well-meaning attention, they have to speak German...

I'm sure we covered the fact that nobody can read when you're being sarcastic over a year ago in the Ukraine thread.

[Papewaio]

That's pure nonsense. European countries and European migrant nations were helping Europeans - the flux has in no way reversed. Most appropriately, Syria hasn't even signed that thing.

Watch Casablanca and then come back and tell me there was no refugees leaving Europe for North Africa and beyond prior, during and after WWII.

[Viking]

Watch Casablanca and then come back and tell me there was no refugees leaving Europe for North Africa and beyond prior, during and after WWII.

A movie as a reference won't cut it.

Regardless, most of Morocco was a French protectorate until 1956. In general, you have to demonstrate who were calling the shots in these countries.

You don't need a refugee convention to accept refugees on your own territory.

[Papewaio]

I'm using a movie reference because it is an enjoyable way of getting a good reference. It also shows that it was common enough knowledge in the U.S. which way the people were traveling. Also you may want to watch it again and recognize which European country had control of Morocco as technically it wasn't France as it's government was in exile and it wouldn't make sense for them to need to run. Vichy France whilst European was an all together different beast and why the people traffickers in the movie were making a profit moving people along.

There are plenty of archival photos of ships loaded with refugees escaping Europe to go to North Africa. There is the movement of people to Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt and Lybia too.

Now if you want to play the colonial masters game. Then I will play the you broke it and you own it one. Lybia and Syria are the result of prior colonial and recent NATO actions.

[Papewaio]

Now for a more dry factual look:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit...Administration

Note the United Nations was what the Allies referred to themselves. This refugee organization did later get absorbed by the current United Nations. So the oldest UN organization is the one dealing with refugees.

The idea that: "That's pure nonsense. European countries and European migrant nations were helping Europeans - the flux has in no way reversed. Most appropriately, Syria hasn't even signed that thing.".

Compare and contrast with a list of the countries who signed the UNRRA:

The Agreement for United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration[3] founding document was signed by 44 countries in the White House in Washington, November 9, 1943. UNRRA was headed by a Director-General, and governed by a Council (composed of representatives of all state parties) with a Central Committee representing the United States, Britain, China, and the Soviet Union.[4] The other countries who signed the agreement included: Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Ethiopia, the French Committee of National Liberation, Greece, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Iceland, India, Iran, Iraq, Liberia, Luxembourg, Mexico, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, South Africa, Uruguay, Venezuela, and Yugoslavia.

So are all these countries European? No, not by a long shot. So my statement was not nonsense. You have somehow mistaken the EU for the UN.

Next time take the easy way out and watch a movie.

[Husar]

I'm sure we covered the fact that nobody can read when you're being sarcastic over a year ago in the Ukraine thread.

Given that there are plenty of people outside the Backroom and even a few within who get my sarcasm right away, I know where the actual problem lies.

At the moment my biggest beef with this whole topic is that there are three scenarios:
1) Germany is full of foreign rapists
2) Germany is full of racists/nazis
3) A bit of 1 and 2

None of them sounds good to me.
Of course the truth is probably 3, but that does not make it better.
I don't think immigration is a problem in itself, the problem is that people make a huge issue out of immigration itself when from all I read the true problem lies with the laws, rules and the way it is handled by the government. That includes laws which are far too soft for some types of crime (we were too busy trying to jail people who copy a CD for the rest of their lives because Hollywood vult), laws which have even allowed inner-European criminals to operate in a cozy environment (no one cared much so far because they don't seem to turn German daughters into sex slaves and the Italians mostly shoot each other). Add to this that getting so many people at once (other countries conveniently collected them before they let them all through at once) causes actual logistics problems in a housing market where rents were already going up (that's a point for Fragony). And national measures to actually do a lot about it, such as raising new housing blocks are unthinkable and even with a lot of effort not possible within a month or two. So you end up "storing" the refugees somewhere, which causes other problems such as rape and whatnot. If some villages are half refugee population now, the distribution is also horribly implemented. 1.5 million refugees with a population of 82 million is 1.8%, so if some places have 50% or even anywhere above 10% refugee population, the distribution is badly organized.

To blame all this on the refugees is a bit silly though, our country was already a bit too much of a paradise for criminals before they arrived and not all of them are criminals after all.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Given that there are plenty of people outside the Backroom and even a few within who get my sarcasm right away, I know where the actual problem lies.

Yes, I said it may well be that you're the funniest man here and we're all morons, but that doesn't change the fact that your responses are far too deadpan for text.

As you say, immigration itself is not inherently bad, but there are questions of scale, of the origin and circumstances of this particular wave of immigrants, and of their sense of entitlement.

One assumes the average German likes living in Germany, speaking German and drinking German beer. Anything that threatens that should be expected to provoke a negative reaction - anything that seriously or repeatedly threatens that might provoke a violent reaction.

If there is a problem with modern Germans it is the self-censorship for fear of being labled Nazis, rather than Germans actually being Nazis.

The rest of Europe secretly think Germans are like this:

[Montmorency]

The rest of Europe secretly think Germans are like this:

I'm not so sure. 20 years ago, that may have been funny; now, the laughter is distinctly nervous...

[Gilrandir]

Kindergarten teachers brought kids out to refugee camps to play together. Doctors came to provide medical help.

In this very order? If it is, then I'm not much surprised.

[Viking]

I'm using a movie reference because it is an enjoyable way of getting a good reference. It also shows that it was common enough knowledge in the U.S. which way the people were traveling. Also you may want to watch it again and recognize which European country had control of Morocco as technically it wasn't France as it's government was in exile and it wouldn't make sense for them to need to run. Vichy France whilst European was an all together different beast and why the people traffickers in the movie were making a profit moving people along.

That doesn't change anything - it was European territory. It was not a Moroccan state that welcomed the refugees.

Here's how things were, as a distantly related example, in Uganda:

Britain took on the responsibility for the homeless Poles, but is said to have treated the refugees with hostility. The Poles in Africa led a very difficult life in severely administered camps and were not allowed to mix with Africans. There were only 2,000 British nationals in Uganda at the time, compared with the 7,000 or so white refugees, according to records at the national archives.

[...]

The refugees had originally arrived in groups and they also left in groups and at different times. When World War II ended, the majority of the Polish refugees were resettled in the UK, Canada and Australia in 1948. The Refugee Office in Nairobi handled the resettlement. A few remaining refugees took up temporary employment in Uganda.

http://newafricanmagazine.com/when-e...-in-african/4/

Basically, an imperial undertaking.

There are plenty of archival photos of ships loaded with refugees escaping Europe to go to North Africa.

I can find fake ones (apparently showing Albanians heading for Italy), but not real ones.

So are all these countries European? No, not by a long shot. So my statement was not nonsense. You have somehow mistaken the EU for the UN.

The next step is to look at the numbers of received refugees for the individual countries. You should find that the vast majority of refugees stayed in Europe, while significant numbers left for countries primarily made up of or ruled by descendants of European migrants or territories under European control.

In other words, no reversal of flux as far as actual states and responsible authorities are concerned.

[Fragony]

You don't even realize when I'm making fun of/mocking them?

If they want my well-meaning attention, they have to speak German...

I apreciate your sarcasm really, but I know you are deeply wrong

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm not so sure. 20 years ago, that may have been funny; now, the laughter is distinctly nervous...

Inside every German is just another German. All we've seen in the last five years is that they've stopped simpering and started thinking about their own country again - something I applaud. I hope they get their army properly in order too, last I heard a lot of them were too fat to pass a basic physical.

Germany is a big country with a wealthy populace and a large industrial base - if it isn't a dominant power in world affairs then there's something funny going on.

[AE Bravo]

If they are allowed to make political protests, they will all be religiously-charged ones that bring middle eastern problems to EU. It’s going to drive policy towards mideast and within. There’s a reason you don’t see any of them in the United States.

Pretending like nothing’s wrong is unhealthy, the issues need to be tackled or you’re harboring racism. This seems all too familiar, and people are forgetting the fact that the immigrants have escaped war and countries ripped apart by sectarianism. Good luck if that's how you're going to deal with them. Stop fronting.

[Brenus]

"Technically refugees, in the international sense, are those fleeing persecution rather than those merely fleeing conflict." Nope. You try to create an artificial difference. The Refugee is some one who cross an international border to save his/her life, doesn't matter why: war, persecution, famine, natural disasters (flooding, droughts, etc).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conven...us_of_Refugees

I do remember for Yugoslavia a special status had to be created Internally Displaced Person as Yugoslavia was in theory one state.

[a completely inoffensive name]

So when is eastern Europe going to finish building their anti immigrant wall? President Trump is going to be pissed if Hungary starts driving up the cost of electrified barbed wire.

[Fisherking]

Lets get real here. Neither the UN or the EU want to fix the problem.

If they did they would be doing much more to alleviate the suffering and provide aid and infrastructure for these people and worry about repatriating them once the conflict is over.

As it stands, these people are made to suffer in order to elicit your sympathies and make cultural suicide so much more palatable.

How on earth do you see traditional Islam and western culture as comparable?

Popular Islamic dogma has a sincere and abiding hatred for basic human rights and such a huge influx of migrants assure that they cannot be assimilated.

We see them ghettoised and demanding shari law implemented in their communities. We see Sweden becoming the rape capital of the world. Is that the fault of popular western culture?

While I have sympathy for the suffering of the individuals, I cannot condone the insanity of this makeshift solution of self destruction.

If the power structure was really concerned with that suffering they would be trying to stop it and not encourage a mass migration toward Europe.

What we are witnessing is the engineering of societal collapse.

[Gilrandir]

How on earth do you see traditional Islam and western culture as comparable?

Kareem Abdoul Jabbar.