IMMIGRATION thread

[Gilrandir]

You are perfectly right of course, I am going to tell my Iranian girlfriend tonight that I senselessly hate her. I never liked her anyway. It's about time I just say it.

Wow, I see there's gonna be some dirty play tonight. Just don't overdo it with the whip.

[Sarmatian]

That goes back to you as well. You were "yammering" about empty West Ukrainian universities and even cities whose students and other inhabitants are all nationalists who have gone to raise hell on Maidan. When I asked for quantitative statistics you dropped the topic. Mote in thy eye, you know.

The data completely refuted his clam, showing that net population gain topped at 6000-7000 in a single year during the last several years and has even been negative once or twice, ie. more people emigrated from than immigrated to Netherlands. Considering his point was that "there's no place for immigrants", it was pertinent for the discussion.

You, on the other hand, demanded numbers for a statement of mine. It was an article which said that a university in Lvov was closed during Maidan. You asked me to provide numbers which didn't exist, how many students were home, how many went to Kiev. It wasn't important because it was a significant number, otherwise university wouldn't cancel its lectures.

You didn't have a clue then and apparently, you still don't.

I never play unfair, I have no idea what you are talking about but I will respond if you can find it. Senseless hate, just being reasonable. Even Sweden cries out that it are just too many, and Sweden is Sweden, it's just not possible.


You are perfectly right of course, I am going to tell my Iranian girlfriend tonight that I senselessly hate her. I never liked her anyway. It's about time I just say it.

Is this another way of saying "I have black friends but..." ?

[Fragony]

I got black friends yeah, that one is such a cliche. You think I am a racist, that's fine. I'll tell my gf and my Somalian guest who lives in my guestroom that I dispise them, they aren't going to believe me though

You didn't jgive me what I asked for by the way, saying that I said something I didn't is called slander

[Fragony]

Islam is not a race and you're not racist if you are concerned about millions of unregistered and unknown people spilling into your country.

Ya. Turkish maffia caught on quikly, almost all pasports are fake, we have no idea who these people are. They refuse to register because Mutti Theresa promised everybody is welcome in Germany. That relinut farmhorse is a disaster.

[Husar]

Islam is not a race and you're not racist if you are concerned about millions of unregistered and unknown people spilling into your country.

Every country has crime.

[Sarmatian]

I got black friends yeah, that one is such a cliche. You think I am a racist, that's fine. I'll tell my gf and my Somalian guest who lives in my guestroom that I dispise them, they aren't going to believe me though

You didn't jgive me what I asked for by the way, saying that I said something I didn't is called slander

I don't have the time to go search for it now. Maybe I'll get to it in the next few days, although one would think that you, being such a staunch opponent of immigration, would keep facts and figures at you finger tips.

Islam is not a race and you're not racist if you are concerned about millions of unregistered and unknown people spilling into your country.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Racism, like so many other terms, has broadened in meaning and includes hate of any group of different people, not necessarily just those with different skin colour.

But, okay, I'll play ball - is bigotry or chauvinism more to your liking?

Registration takes time, and it will be done eventually (a huge number has already been registered when they entered Serbia, it was Greece that didn't register almost anyone so they wouldn't appear as the first country refugees entered because then the rest of EU could theoretically just dump them all back to Greece) but it would be inhumane to keep refugees outside for weeks/months while they wait for registration, in Europe in November.

At least inform yourselves about basic facts before you start hating. But, if you did that, most of the problem would be solved.

[Fragony]

I don't have the time to go search for it now. Maybe I'll get to it in the next few days, although one would think that you, being such a staunch opponent of immigration, would keep facts and figures at you finger tips.



Yeah, yeah, yeah. Racism, like so many other terms, has broadened in meaning and includes hate of any group of different people, not necessarily just those with different skin colour.

But, okay, I'll play ball - is bigotry or chauvinism more to your liking?

Registration takes time, and it will be done eventually (a huge number has already been registered when they entered Serbia, it was Greece that didn't register almost anyone so they wouldn't appear as the first country refugees entered because then the rest of EU could theoretically just dump them all back to Greece) but it would be inhumane to keep refugees outside for weeks/months while they wait for registration, in Europe in November.

At least inform yourselves about basic facts before you start hating. But, if you did that, most of the problem would be solved.

I see. Maybe it just isn't there

[HopAlongBunny]

Canada is stepping up to the plate.
Recently elected Liberal gov't pledges to take in 25,000 refugees before the end of the year.
Rather serious questions remain about whether it is feasible in the time allotted.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trud...oups-1.3291959

[Montmorency]

Islam is not a race and you're not racist if you are concerned about millions of unregistered and unknown people spilling into your country.

In fact, it would be much easier if European governments adopted policies that answered a different question than 'how do we deal with these Mohammedans?'

By approaching integration as something that is done to or by "Muslims", you implicitly endorse the Islamist manifesto of "Ein Reich, Ein Volk, Ein Fuhrer"; if we would like to remediate the insular tendencies of disoriented foreigners, then giving them nothing to latch onto but fundamentalist pan-Islamic identity and a sense of grievance. Or should we be surprised when we sweep a bunch of dust into a corner and end up with dustballs?

Even going according to a breakdown by ethnicity or national origin would be an improvement. Of course, at this point it would be too little too late given the oppositional structure and culture that has become well-established in Muslim Europe over the past 20 years.

[Gilrandir]

You, on the other hand, demanded numbers for a statement of mine. It was an article which said that a university in Lvov was closed during Maidan. You asked me to provide numbers which didn't exist, how many students were home, how many went to Kiev. It wasn't important because it was a significant number, otherwise university wouldn't cancel its lectures.

You didn't have a clue then and apparently, you still don't.

Good. Now you admit that the numbers didn't (and apparently don't) exist. Yet you claimed that 1) ALL OF THOSE went to Maidan and 2) ALL OF THOSE were extremists/nazis. So you claimed things that have no proof. Now you use the word "significant" instead of "all" or "disproportionate quantity". It shows that NOW you have a clue.

[Fragony]

Good. Now you admit that the numbers didn't (and apparently don't) exist. Yet you claimed that 1) ALL OF THOSE went to Maidan and 2) ALL OF THOSE were extremists/nazis. So you claimed things that have no proof. Now you use the word "significant" instead of "all" or "disproportionate quantity". It shows that NOW you have a clue.

I never demanded any numbers I have no idea what he's talking about. Never heard of Maidan I don't know what Maidan is

You are probably mistaking me with someone else Sarmatrian

edit, sorry I see it wasn't directed at me

[Sarmatian]

Good. Now you admit that the numbers didn't (and apparently don't) exist. Yet you claimed that 1) ALL OF THOSE went to Maidan and 2) ALL OF THOSE were extremists/nazis. So you claimed things that have no proof. Now you use the word "significant" instead of "all" or "disproportionate quantity". It shows that NOW you have a clue.

Go pester someone else. If you didn't understand it during my two previous attempt to explain, you either dumb or a troll.

[Fragony]

Surprise, the Merkel completily changes her point, the Sweden does as well. Yes it are many. No it's your problem.

[Gilrandir]

a True Christian does not harm to others, loves all mankind, serves God and gives all his possessions tot he poor.

OMG! Almost all Popes of the past were not true Christians then. And most of medieval Europe neither.

Go pester someone else. If you didn't understand it during my two previous attempt to explain, you either dumb or a troll.

Calling names is the last (and symptomatic) resort when you find yourself beaten with your own weapon. Way to go!

[AE Bravo]

we don't inter fer with Churches, Temples or Synagogues either.

They're not funded by organizations affiliated with enemies of the state. Preachers in churches and synagogues don't regularly practice sedition either. This is a unique case, freedom of religion is being subverted by those who run places of worship.

You're a Muslim that drinks.

Having said that, this is all a matter of perspective. a True Christian does not harm to others, loves all mankind, serves God and gives all his possessions tot he poor. From what I've read a true Muslim spends all his time converting others to Islam, by persuasion or by threat of violence.

Drinking isn't a big offense, it is not prohibited in the Qur'an. Wasn’t banned until the eleventh century. I have no interest in converting anyone and I'm pretty Islam doesn't require me to.

The things you described as true to Christianity apply to all religions. The Bible is a bit more Old Testament is what I’m saying. It's clear that most Christians don't take their religion seriously and veneration/worship is becoming less important for them. Faith in its traditional form in Christianity has been on the decline.

Anyway, this comment makes me think you don't believe in "Left Wing" Islam yourself.

Of course I do, Syria not too long ago and Egypt. By left I don't mean do everything to make the religion less relevant.

Look up Operation Torjan Horse - there were two separate enquiries and both concluded that Muslim parents were trying to Islamise State Schools, and that the local Council was craven in confronting them about it.

I don't know what you consider "Left Wing" Islam but I have a suspicion that it's nothing like anything "Left Wing" in Europe, and that we have little or none of it here in any case.

That's only one incident, hardly enough to make the bold statement that westernized Muslims want their own separate sharia schools.

I bet there are a ****load of interfaith marriages, gay Muslims, and born Muslims that relate more to EU stuff but they're just a "minority" so they don't matter, because Islamists are just louder so they must be "mainstream" as well.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

OMG! Almost all Popes of the past were not true Christians then. And most of medieval Europe neither.

Not whilst they were killing, no.

They're not funded by organizations affiliated with enemies of the state. Preachers in churches and synagogues don't regularly practice sedition either. This is a unique case, freedom of religion is being subverted by those who run places of worship.

And where preachers are shown to be funded by terrorists, or are stirring up hatred or inciting violence that can be dealt with.

What you're essentially saying is that the Imans in this country signed Faustian pacts with the Muslim Brotherhood etc. and now the Mosques have been taken over by radicals and hardliners. This view is reductive, it assumes that the majority of Muslims are extremely stupid and with believe whatever in Imax says AND it ignores the simple fact that moderate Islam in the UK is largely not listend to anymore.



Drinking isn't a big offense, it is not prohibited in the Qur'an. Wasn’t banned until the eleventh century. I have no interest in converting anyone and I'm pretty Islam doesn't require me to.

The things you described as true to Christianity apply to all religions. The Bible is a bit more Old Testament is what I’m saying. It's clear that most Christians don't take their religion seriously and veneration/worship is becoming less important for them. Faith in its traditional form in Christianity has been on the decline.

It is true that the established Churches are in decline, or were, but a lot of this can be seem as a reaction against two World Wars. My parents' generation believed that everybody would become atheists but most of my friends are Christian or agnostic. However, because of the big dip in the popularity of religion among the previous generation the established Church lost it's broad base of adherents and hence its influence.

So, today, Christians in my generation come to Christianity by reading the Bible rather than going to Church - then they often go find a Church they like. This means they're often relatively ignorant of the Church Fathers and later writers, and that they come to the religion with their own viewpoint and then ajust that to a group they feel comfortable with, rather than being part of a group and then interpreting the Creed in their own way.

Or, to put it another way, orthodoxy is mostly dead here and we have a lot of heretics.

As far as all religions believing that you should do no harm to others - that's a long way from being true. The Jewish God El in his original form was vengeful and wrathful and his harsh judgement reached down through the generations. He repeatedly ordered the massacre of entire peoples. Allah sent the Prophet on a mission to, essentially, conquer the world - something which assumes that killing for God in battle if righteous. Indeed, I'm fairly certain that in some instances the Prophet ordered entire populations massacred when they refused to convert and special consideration was only given to Christians and Jews.

Those are the better religions - most other religions have death-cults and endorse human sacrifice of either loved ones or enemies. Woden takes only warriors who have killed and died in battle to Valhalla, the Allfather has no use for peacemakers or farmers he needs only warriors for the Last Battle.

Christianity is a pacifistic religion, for all that Christians have rarely been pacifists. It is also a religion for servants and slaves, for all that Christians have tried to rule the world.

Of course I do, Syria not too long ago and Egypt. By left I don't mean do everything to make the religion less relevant.

What is "Left Wing" Islam though? Equal rights for women? Disregarding of headcoverings for the same? What about homosexuals? What's the stance on corporal punishement for children? Principles of government?

That's only one incident, hardly enough to make the bold statement that westernized Muslims want their own separate sharia schools.

14 schools, in one area. I suspect it was not isolated, but that the government has been trying to quietly identify other offenders. Also, I said "apparently Westernised" Muslims, not that all Westernised Muslims want Sharia schools - but that many who appear well integrated aren't, really.

I bet there are a ****load of interfaith marriages, gay Muslims, and born Muslims that relate more to EU stuff but they're just a "minority" so they don't matter, because Islamists are just louder so they must be "mainstream" as well.

I have no idea what "EU stuff" is - unless you mean fishing quotas - but yes there are of course interfaith marriages and gay Muslims. There was a documentary about Gay Muslims recently called "Muslim Drag Queens" and it was mostly about how they're ostracised and receive death threats.

Fact is, there are widespread problems with abuse of women and homosexuals, honour killings, forced marriages and female genital mutilations. We have special police task forces for the latter. Now, do I think that the majority of Muslims do these things? No, but I do think the majority are more in sympathy with the perpetrators than with me.

[CrossLOPER]

Calling names is the last (and symptomatic) resort when you find yourself beaten with your own weapon. Way to go!

There was a guy around here back in about 2007 who refused to download Adobe Reader to read official documents to understand an argument. I suspect the frustration is similar to that.