IMMIGRATION thread

[Papewaio]

Maybe one day the child of an EUer and one of this wave of immigrants will be the next Steve Jobs.

[Greyblades]

An overrated hack who steals credit for other people's ideas?

[Papewaio]

An overrated hack who steals credit for other people's ideas?

Do better.

Point is Steve Jobs was half Syrian. So nutured in the right environment ie surrounded by engineers as was young Steve Jobs with HP. And the next boom idea home PC, home 3D commercial grade material printer, home ???. And out of the immigrants I'm sure you will get some hard working migrants.

Where I work in IT three quarters of the engineers are first or second generation Aussies. Integration done right is a boon.

Anyhow EU broke Libya with the bombing with no Marshall-like plan in place. You break it you bought it.
Syria the EU has been supporting the rebels which has allows ISIS to grow unchecked. You break it you bought it.

This is just recent events no need to add in Iraq, or British Colonial rule or Ottoman Empire. Just focus on the events that have happened in the last five years.

If a situation warrants bombing a dictator it also warrants looking after the people fleeing the same dictator.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Do better.

Point is Steve Jobs was half Syrian. So nutured in the right environment ie surrounded by engineers as was young Steve Jobs with HP. And the next boom idea home PC, home 3D commercial grade material printer, home ???. And out of the immigrants I'm sure you will get some hard working migrants.

Where I work in IT three quarters of the engineers are first or second generation Aussies. Integration done right is a boon.

Steve Job was not raised by his Syrian father, indeed he never met him - he refused to even contact him. Steve jobs got his Job at Atari fraudulently by passing Steve Wozniak's work off as his own. Later Atari gave him a job based on Woz's work. Jobs couldn't do it so he palmed it off on Woz. Atari gave Jobs a bonus for every chip cut out of the design - $100 each. The bonus was $5000, Jobs told Woz he'd pay him half but Woz got $700. Steve Wozniak only found out he'd been ripped off ten years later.

So, in other words, without Steve Jobs Steve Wozniak might have been a tech genius at Atari where his talents would be appreciated.

This rather raises the question of whether we need another Steve Jobs, ever.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...test-news.html

So, Sweden has re-introduced border controls and now Donald Tusk fears the collapse of the Schengen area.

This is what happens when you try to fix multiple countries to a single currency and border zone without a shared government.

[Fragony]

I needed to clean my screen, immigrants complain about the food, I wonder why http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven...u_al_groo.html

last pic, yes that yoghurt tastes bad

[Fragony]

Maybe one day the child of an EUer and one of this wave of immigrants will be the next Steve Jobs.

Well, perhaps not. It's a leftist lie that these are highly educated people, most can't even read. We got no use for goatherders we hardly eat goat. They only just rolled of the mountain and are WAY behind

We should have had a lot of Steve Job's by now already in the 50 years we had mass-immigration. In the Netherlands before this wave it has costed 180 billion euro, 8 billion a year. Zero benefit, people from the eastblock actually work.

[Husar]

Well, perhaps not. It's a leftist lie that these are highly educated people, most can't even read. We got no use for goatherders we hardly eat goat. They only just rolled of the mountain and are WAY behind

Couldn't find a more stereotypical stereotype?

We should have had a lot of Steve Job's by now already in the 50 years we had mass-immigration. In the Netherlands before this wave it has costed 180 billion euro, 8 billion a year. Zero benefit, people from the eastblock actually work.

How about a link to where you got the numbers from? I could only find numbers about the UK which are flawed because the net contributions of their children born in the UK were not taken into account as immigration contribution since they were born in the UK...

And how are they supposed to make money if people like you just won't hire them regardless of qualification just because of their name or face?

[AE Bravo]

There are a multitude of different ways to deal with a defeated people, although I'm not even sure this particular Jewish tribe weren't just made an example of. I have read that they simply refused to fight for or against Mohammed.

They conspired against them. The reason this tribe in particular wasn't banished like the other Jewish tribes (Nadir and Qaynuqa') was because the trial was carried out on their terms and they failed.

No - the Muslims are responsible and most especially Muhammed as their leader. Surely as God's Prophet he could have chosen to be lenient in any case? The fact that he killed all the men and enslaved everyone else must mean God endorsed this course of action

The last part is not necessarily true. In the context of seventh century Arabia it was justice. They were given freedom over their own judgement and going back on that would have rendered the whole process and city law null. Do you blame Jews for the Jewish revolts preceding Christ btw? Judas of Galilee?

A Prophet, per definition, enacts God's will

Moses killed, Joseph broke apart his family, Saul and Solomon waged war. Makes more sense that their main purpose is showing their mistakes that people can learn from. Different methods of enacting God's will.

Only if it's allegorical.

I think it's safe to say it's allegorical. If they weren't, than the Bible takes the cake in terms of historical fiction.

My point is not that Muhammed is a monster, my point is that his conduct in his life is fairly unremarkable. He leads his people, he makes war and peace, he takes slaves, he releases captives etc.

This is what makes him interesting. Muhammad was never the "messiah" or the "prophet," he was always called the messenger of Allah and the grounded culmination of this line. The totally "clean" prophets are always the most bland, except for the messiah Jesus. His politics and personal life weren't immune to criticism. It was already established there was a clear distinction between the man - the messenger and the message itself. This was a man who managed to create a morally superior society while he was alive.

As revolutionaries they all have blood on their hands.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

They conspired against them. The reason this tribe in particular wasn't banished like the other Jewish tribes (Nadir and Qaynuqa') was because the trial was carried out on their terms and they failed.

The last part is not necessarily true. In the context of seventh century Arabia it was justice. They were given freedom over their own judgement and going back on that would have rendered the whole process and city law null.

Yeah - I just don't get it - or rather I do but I don't really buy it.

Seems to me Muhammed won the battle, he could do whatever he wanted. This tribe didn't trust Muhammed - which isn't necessarily unreasonable - and so selected another man to judge between them. This judge proscribed the worst punishment short of extermination.

Muhammed could still have shown them mercy but he chose not to.

Do you blame Jews for the Jewish revolts preceding Christ btw? Judas of Galilee?

You mean the Zealots?

Well, they were around during the time of Christ, Christ even had a former Zealot as a follower, but the Jewish revolt came roughly three decades after Christ's death. If you're asking if I blame the Jews throughout the Empire then no, but I think that those who went to war against Rome are responsible for their own actions just as the Roman legionaries are responsible for destroying the Temple.

As this relates to Muslims, weren't all Muslims more or less part of Muhammed's tribe at this time? Presumably the Muslims were under his command, under arms, and they did the killing.

If you are asking if the Muslims today are responsible then, no, that would be idiotic. However, you clearly endorse the actions of those early Muslims so I have to assume you approve of the punishment.

Moses killed, Joseph broke apart his family, Saul and Solomon waged war. Makes more sense that their main purpose is showing their mistakes that people can learn from. Different methods of enacting God's will.

For my birthday Montmercy sent me an essay on Pharaoh's refusal to let the people go and free will. In the case of Moses, he kills someone, flees into the desert and then becomes a prophet and one of the most visible avatars of God's will, what he does he does at the behest and with the power of the Lord.

Scripture records that both Saul and Solomon failed God - you could interpret their waging of war as a failure because they were unable to find another solution - or perhaps the Temple scribes glossed over things - we know they glossed over early Jewish polytheism.

I think it's safe to say it's allegorical. If they weren't, than the Bible takes the cake in terms of historical fiction.

Well, then one might as well say that Muhammed never existed and it's just a story - that's a popular belief among Atheists.

The Koran is different to the Bible in a number of ways, the Koran is essentially one book, not many, one man's biography supposedly transcribed during his lifetime. There's no reason to believe the narrative is in any way allegorical.

This is what makes him interesting. Muhammad was never the "messiah" or the "prophet," he was always called the messenger of Allah and the grounded culmination of this line. The totally "clean" prophets are always the most bland, except for the messiah Jesus. His politics and personal life weren't immune to criticism. It was already established there was a clear distinction between the man - the messenger and the message itself. This was a man who managed to create a morally superior society while he was alive.

As revolutionaries they all have blood on their hands.

Actually, both the terms "Prophet" (Speaker) and "Messiah" (Anointed) describe Muhammed perfectly. He was, according to the Islamic tradition, the one appointed by God to give people the correct instruction and way of living that most please God.

Note that Jesus is far from unique in being called "Messiah" because that appellation was applied by the Jews to Prophets and Kings they believed to be chosen by God - including the Persian Cyrus the Great.

My point, in any case, is that Muhammed is presumably the model for a Muslim man (correct me if I'm wrong) and, as a Christian, I find little to recommend him compared to other men.

[Gilrandir]

Maybe one day the child of an EUer and one of this wave of immigrants will be the next Steve Jobs.

I'm sure jobs is what they look for in Europe.

[Sarmatian]

And who said Steve Jobs was a great man?

He's the consumerism poster boy - created something no one really needed and no one can live without it now. He's the quintessential capitalist anglosphere champion.

[Papewaio]

You really need to work on your confirmation bias and reading comprehension.

"Point is Steve Jobs was half Syrian. So nutured in the right environment ie surrounded by engineers as was young Steve Jobs with HP. And the next boom idea home PC, home 3D commercial grade material printer, home ???. And out of the immigrants I'm sure you will get some hard working migrants."

I'm not arguing for great men nor genes. Just like the entrepreneurs lauded in generations before like auto manufacturers or oil barons they are products of new oppourtunities and environment. Yes they do make the best of the oppourtunities, but they did not create the environment that allowed them to succeed.

My argument is that the right environment is STEM not religion and the right opportunity the next boom idea will make some young people look like genius entrepreneurs the opposite is also true dump people into an extremist religious school and their next boom idea will involve a strap on vest and attacking those who don't agree with them.

TL;DR In short environment and standing on the shoulders of giants makes greatness or great tragedy. Individuals still need to decide and take responsibility for their actions but the environment is a powerful lever to be used as they are trained fit to do so.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You really need to work on your confirmation bias and reading comprehension.

"Point is Steve Jobs was half Syrian. So nutured in the right environment ie surrounded by engineers as was young Steve Jobs with HP. And the next boom idea home PC, home 3D commercial grade material printer, home ???. And out of the immigrants I'm sure you will get some hard working migrants."

I'm not arguing for great men nor genes. Just like the entrepreneurs lauded in generations before like auto manufacturers or oil barons they are products of new oppourtunities and environment. Yes they do make the best of the oppourtunities, but they did not create the environment that allowed them to succeed.

My argument is that the right environment is STEM not religion and the right opportunity the next boom idea will make some young people look like genius entrepreneurs the opposite is also true dump people into an extremist religious school and their next boom idea will involve a strap on vest and attacking those who don't agree with them.

TL;DR In short environment and standing on the shoulders of giants makes greatness or great tragedy. Individuals still need to decide and take responsibility for their actions but the environment is a powerful lever to be used as they are trained fit to do so.

Yeah, but Steve jobs didn't really invent most of the things he's credited with, other people did and he took the credit. The point is that Steve Jobs may actually have been a net-detriment by sitting on Steve Wozniak, the man who really WAS the father of the Home Computer.

[Papewaio]

Yeah, but Steve jobs didn't really invent most of the things he's credited with, other people did and he took the credit. The point is that Steve Jobs may actually have been a net-detriment by sitting on Steve Wozniak, the man who really WAS the father of the Home Computer.

Reading comprehension is still screwed PFH...
"the next boom idea will make some young people look like genius entrepreneurs"

Woz is the ideas man that makes some entrepreneurs look like a genius... Looks like. Again not arguing that a Chinese Emperor is the key inventor of such and such or a CEO is the driving force. It's the unsung shoulders of those below.

However reading Woz's accounts it does seem he was too introverted to spread his ideas. For every lion you need a ringmaster.

[Papewaio]

So we should start importing more Poles?

Well their lady dancers are very popular...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So we should start importing more Poles?

Always, men and women.

[HopAlongBunny]

The USA largely created the present conditions, thus they should accept the bulk of the refugees

http://www.democracynow.org/2015/3/3...deal_with_isis

[Fisherking]

Refugees as a profit making enterprise: http://journal-neo.org/2015/12/18/so...refugee-chaos/

From a darling of the left.

[Fragony]

Can take it too far, Denmark is thinking about confiscating money over 400 euro and juwels. Law hasn't passed yet but that's pretty repulsive, there is a diifference between being stern and being inhuman imo

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Refugees as a profit making enterprise: http://journal-neo.org/2015/12/18/so...refugee-chaos/

From a darling of the left.

George Soros is the man who kicked the UK out of the EMU just because he could.