IMMIGRATION thread

[Don Corleone]

Speaking to the question of my assertion that we live in a rape culture... I should clarify that I'm speaking to the everyday occurrence in America. From regular business trips to UK and continental Europe, I believe you folks are more evolved on this issue than we are.

I'm not saying that every woman that claims rape should automatically be believed, or that false reports aren't made. Of course they are. The Duke Lacrosse case a couple of years ago certainly highlighted that. And yes, there is stigma attached to being on the receiving end of a rape accusation in some circles.

But my reason for making a statement like that...

-According to the FBI (not a policy group), only 1 in 10 sexual assaults gets reported.
-Also according to the FBI, only 1 in 10 sexual assaults that get reported actually have charges filed.
-Also, according to... you guessed it, the FBI, 1 in 20 perpetrators that get charged actually end up getting convicted.
-That means there's a 1 in 2000 chance you won't get away with it.
-Until a federal spending bill 2 years criminalized the practice, hospitals used to bill the victim for their rape kits in most jurisdictions.
-Unlike theft, assault, arson, murder of other serious crimes, rape trials are as much about the victim as they are about the defendant:
-What was she wearing
-What was her sexual history
-Was she alone? Why?
-Had she been drinking?
-Was she acquainted with the perpetrator? Did she agree to some consensual contact prior to the assault?

If Europe has evolved completely beyond the above, bravo. And that would seriously have me consider becoming an immigrant to Germany myself.

My original point however still stands. "Those filthy brownies are after our women" is so played out, I'm surprised you don't see it for what it is. 1) There's an overwhelming majority of those folks that are not involved in this and 2) if anybody goes after your women... there's your problem. If a Freemason burns my house down, I go after arsonists, not the Freemasons.

[Fragony]

You mean well but the correlations are indisputable. If you would say a sexist-culture I cannot disagree but is that all that horrible. its mutually exclusive. In any case, some nerve what these cultural-enrichers did. We are not to tolerate people who fell of their camel lost his tent and somehow ended up in Europe

[rvg]

People with culture are culturally enriching local women. Why do you ungrateful barbarians resist being culturally enriched?

[Fragony]

People with culture are culturally enriching local women. Why do you ungrateful barbarians resist being culturally enriched?

I prefer 'mutually respected' heh

[Viking]

I'm not saying that every woman that claims rape should automatically be believed, or that false reports aren't made. Of course they are. The Duke Lacrosse case a couple of years ago certainly highlighted that. And yes, there is stigma attached to being on the receiving end of a rape accusation in some circles.

But my reason for making a statement like that...

-According to the FBI (not a policy group), only 1 in 10 sexual assaults gets reported.
-Also according to the FBI, only 1 in 10 sexual assaults that get reported actually have charges filed.
-Also, according to... you guessed it, the FBI, 1 in 20 perpetrators that get charged actually end up getting convicted.
-That means there's a 1 in 2000 chance you won't get away with it.
-Until a federal spending bill 2 years criminalized the practice, hospitals used to bill the victim for their rape kits in most jurisdictions.

All fine and dandy, but how does this indicate that we are dealing with a "rape culture"? (it's not hard to think of alternative explanations)

Importantly, the statistics you've chosen do not include the perpetrators. How do they compare to the average individual? How do they score on empathy? How good are they at reading other people?

A relevant perspective:

In other studies, Treat and colleagues have found that men who have difficulties perceiving and remembering sexual interest are more likely to endorse rape myths. The endorsement of rape myths is generally seen as indicating an increased tendency to engage in sexual coercion and aggression.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...she-interested

^ This could potentially be a biological failure.

-Unlike theft, assault, arson, murder of other serious crimes, rape trials are as much about the victim as they are about the defendant:
-What was she wearing
-What was her sexual history
-Was she alone? Why?
-Had she been drinking?
-Was she acquainted with the perpetrator? Did she agree to some consensual contact prior to the assault?

References? (e.g. for prevalence)

[Husar]

Eh, this will sound emotional, but I always get so mad when things like this happen, being a kind-hearted mammoth that wouldn't hurt a daisy and all. I think it's a bit taffing late for education and discussion when an organized throng decides to go stone age on whatever women come at hand. I'm not saying to go full hitler on the animals, but I wouldn't be shy about letting the riot police have an off the record field day on each and every one of those deplorable genetic accidents that believe themselves to be men, followed up by a life of forced labor in the coal mine or something equivalent to that. I guess some form of (preferably painful) castration wouldn't be too extreme a measure in the given circumstances either.

I believe education and discussion should be a part of a human's life in an attempt to avoid this kind of downfall. If you get down into the kind of filth that those men indulged, I don't think you ever get to come out and clean yourself again. You are forever lost to society and simply constitute a danger for those around you.

It makes me angry as well, but even angrier when the police cannot or does not stop these things. Maybe we need more guns again...
In the end it is indeed a political failure, we have achieved long jail terms and incredibly high fines for someone who copies a Disney movie while organized crimes has almost been welcomed here. The Italian, Lebanese, Balkan and whatever other mafia, rocker gangs, human trafficking, all gone up. No-go-zones for the police may not exist in the classic sense but in situations like these I wish to spawn a unit of knights of santiago as well. Overall though you go way too far, while I believe in immediate punishment and enforcing the peace through violence when needed, revenge and ongoing violence cannot be the answer. Neither can mass-deportations or sweeping generalizations, further ghettoization or mass-criminalization based on skin color. If you look for Germans who show similar behavior, you will usually find them among the poor strata of society, since Fragony like correlations, why does this one never come up? How many rich, educated immigrants riot in the streets?

Not to forget that a lot of those who rioted there were likely not ones who came with the latest waves of refugees, they organized themselves to come there apparently and some say there were known criminals among them who are known to the police for a while already. Not that it's very important either way as this shouldn't happen and lead to a rejection of asylum status. But what do you do with 3rd generation immigrants who are citizens? Jail them all? I mean you need a long-term solution either way and jail and violence should be temporary. Castration and other revenge acts may just lead to a jihadist army of eunuchs, hardly an improvement.
Not to forget that barbarian punishments do not exactly show that we are any better.

Oh and not to forget that the number of policemen has been steadily reduced by politicians in many places, despite the fact that we still needquite a few of them. Somehow we are a richer society than ever, yet we cannot afford anything anymore. Oh wait, we bailed out all the banks, yeah, that sounds more important...

A relevant perspective:

In other studies, Treat and colleagues have found that men who have difficulties perceiving and remembering sexual interest are more likely to endorse rape myths. The endorsement of rape myths is generally seen as indicating an increased tendency to engage in sexual coercion and aggression.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...she-interested

^ This could potentially be a biological failure.

So people who think most refugees/immigrants are rapists have a higher likelihood of being rapists themselves?

[Shaka_Khan]

I doubt that the police will catch all 1000 of them. Germany needs to increase police presence in the dangerous areas. The offenders will do this again if they feel that they can get away with it. In the American cities like Detroit and L.A. and in the Australian cities like Melbourne, cops are unable to stop gang violence. In these areas, bystanders become victims of gang rivalries because the gangs mistook them as rival gang members. If someone gets robbed or gets his or her car vandalized in these cities, the cops will say that the victim was at a sketchy area and will most likely do nothing about it. The cops accepted this as being normal. There are crazies in every city. However, some cities don't experience problems from them because those potential troublemakers know that they'd get in trouble if they attack people.

I for one believe that the offenders knew what they were doing was wrong. They assaulted a police woman who tried to stop them. It's a problem if the offenders aren't afraid of the police. Who's going to stop them? The lack of action is making these offenders feel more powerful. The best way to educate these offenders is to increase police presence. Then they'll know that Germany isn't allowing these offenses to happen. If an offender goes back to that train station and see an increase in the number of police, then that offender will know that Germany is doing something about this. If Germany doesn't, then they'll think the German government doesn't care. The German police should've reacted quickly with more police when it was happening.

[Kralizec]

I doubt that the police will catch all 1000 of them.

The articles I've read about it are vague, but my impression is that 1,000 refers to all the young men gathered in the street and not the perpetrators. The reports say that large groups of men preyed on lone victims, "large groups" possibly meaning 20 or more, but the idea of 1,000 sexual predators gathering in one place to cause trouble seems ridiculous.

And yes, of course that is still bad, and it probably has more than a little to do with the background of the perpetrators. One would hope it's not necessary to explicitly say so after a post like this one, but you know, internets

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The articles I've read about it are vague, but my impression is that 1,000 refers to all the young men gathered in the street and not the perpetrators. The reports say that large groups of men preyed on lone victims, "large groups" possibly meaning 20 or more, but the idea of 1,000 sexual predators gathering in one place to cause trouble seems ridiculous.

And yes, of course that is still bad, and it probably has more than a little to do with the background of the perpetrators. One would hope it's not necessary to explicitly say so after a post like this one, but you know, internets

+1 Internets for stating what should be obvious, but isn't.

A back of the envelope figure for you -

90 reported sexual assaults, lets assume groups of three women and make an allowance for unreported assaults, say 35 separate instances of gang attacks - reports of groups of 20-30 men , average 25.

So - 25*35=875.

That assumes the number of unreported offences is quite low and each group of men only attacked a single group of women. I would say the latter assumption was relatively sound, as I can't really see groups forming, assaulting girls and then moving on to assault more girls. That kind of mob action tends to be a one off thing rather than something you repeat throughout the night.

In any case, 1,000 suspects is clearly not an improbable estimate.

[Kralizec]

+1 Internets for stating what should be obvious, but isn't.

A back of the envelope figure for you -

90 reported sexual assaults, lets assume groups of three women and make an allowance for unreported assaults, say 35 separate instances of gang attacks - reports of groups of 20-30 men , average 25.

So - 25*35=875.

That assumes the number of unreported offences is quite low and each group of men only attacked a single group of women. I would say the latter assumption was relatively sound, as I can't really see groups forming, assaulting girls and then moving on to assault more girls. That kind of mob action tends to be a one off thing rather than something you repeat throughout the night.

In any case, 1,000 suspects is clearly not an improbable estimate.

I disagree, I don’t think your assumption makes a lot of sense. I’ve been to Keulen (as Dutch people know it) and as I recall the area in question isn’t that big, not large enough to accommodate many thousands. Are we going to believe that most of the males present engaged in this behaviour, or that everyone on the square was an Arab or African for that matter?
“Indecent assault” is a vague term and probably some of those could have been adolescent boys cupping a feel for giggles, before resuming their normal drunken behaviour for the rest of the night. Like petty vandalism, it’s something that I can believe that most of the people present would be capable of.

For the more serious ones though I think it’s very likely that they were committed by less than a hundred people total spread in three or four groups (and I think it’s plausible that they were of certain ethnicities). A group rape, or an assault bordering on rape requires some serious peer pressure and I don’t see a group of 1.000 people who’ve randomly gathered collectively engaging in it. I’d wager that most of those people where regular drunken rabble (brown or not), of the kind you see in every city on new years night.

[wooly_mammoth]

@Husar

Of course you are totally right, I just felt the need to vent out a bit (but still, Builder be praised, hadst I a Hammer I would smash each of the perpetrators to tiniest pieces -.-). This is just unheard of. I won't put forward absurd dreams of a crimeless society, but something of this magnitude must never happen in Europe if we still claim to be a civilized part of the world.

[Fragony]

Thief references always +1

[Greyblades]

Pray tell, why Germany should spend time and resources educating people who should not be there in the first place?

Well, according to this guy it's because germany needs the infusion of young workers due to an aging population.

[Greyblades]

But my reason for making a statement like that...

-According to the FBI (not a policy group), only 1 in 10 sexual assaults gets reported.
-Also according to the FBI, only 1 in 10 sexual assaults that get reported actually have charges filed.
-Also, according to... you guessed it, the FBI, 1 in 20 perpetrators that get charged actually end up getting convicted.
-That means there's a 1 in 2000 chance you won't get away with it.

To say I am not impressed, with how you can come to that conclusion, would be an understatment.

That the first statistic is an estimate based on... I cant imagine, cynicism? How can anyone give accurate stats on things that are unreported?

The second statistic is entirely based on victim willingness to press charges, the motives of which cannot be stated with confidence as each one could be anything from "well it was just a kiss, we were on a date so maybe I shouldn't be getting so worked up" to "his family will kill me if I press charges" or even "I'm lying and I can't trust the court will fall for it"

And the third is completely irrelevant as we have no idea how many of those 9/10 unconvicted cases were innocent and thus justified.

From this you cannot in good conscience say sexual assulters have a 1 in 2000 chance of getting caught.

Compounding this is my understanding that in america sexual assault has a wide reaching definition, some would say absurdly so. How much of that useless 1 in 2000 stat regarding rape and how much is just accidentally overstepping the desired bounds in a date? We cannot know.

-Until a federal spending bill 2 years criminalized the practice, hospitals used to bill the victim for their rape kits in most jurisdictions.

Was this a "rape culture" problem or a privatised medicine wanting to make money problem?

-Unlike theft, assault, arson, murder of other serious crimes, rape trials are as much about the victim as they are about the defendant:
-What was she wearing
-What was her sexual history
-Was she alone? Why?
-Had she been drinking?
-Was she acquainted with the perpetrator? Did she agree to some consensual contact prior to the assault?

The first and third questions is irrelavent and should be rightly ridiculed but the rest are very important in determining concent, as a major problem in rape accusations is victims retroactively denying concent.

My original point however still stands. "Those filthy brownies are after our women" is so played out, I'm surprised you don't see it for what it is. 1) There's an overwhelming majority of those folks that are not involved in this and 2) if anybody goes after your women... there's your problem. If a Freemason burns my house down, I go after arsonists, not the Freemasons.

Agreed, and if the arsonists are Freemasons we should go after them regardless of their status.

[Montmorency]

And the third is completely irrelevant as we have no idea how many of those 9/10 unconvicted cases were innocent and thus justified.

It is quite important as it indicates that the social consequences of rape accusations are minimal unless you go so far as to assume that in all the unreported cases and all the cases that do not see court, there are still fewer 'true rapes' than there are spurious trials, and that in such unreported cases and cases that do not see court, that the accused are so much as inconvenienced, let alone penalized by employers and peers who never hear word of the matter anyway.

How much of that useless 1 in 2000 stat regarding rape and how much is just accidentally overstepping the desired bounds in a date? We cannot know.

That's more to do with fundamental disagreements over what constitutes "rape" than any legitimate methodological or statistical complaint.

Is this a "rape culture" problem or a privatised medicine wanting to make money problem?

What privatized medicine? Rape kits are virtually never tested, as they are tested in-house and police see their priorities as (anywhere) else.

but the rest are very important in determining concent

Inebriation legally precludes consent.

Sexual history would be even less relevant here than a record of plagiarism.

If we take consent earlier in an encounter or in an earlier encounter to be meaningful, then we must ask of those who insist that this is so how it can be judged to affect the case in any principled way.

as a major problem in rape accusations is victims retroactively denying concent.

How do you figure that?

[Greyblades]

It is quite important as it indicates that the social consequences of rape accusations are minimal

No it doesnt. It indicates that the Legal consequences of rape accusations are minimal.

unless you go so far as to assume that in all the unreported cases and all the cases that do not see court, there are still fewer 'true rapes' than there are spurious trials, and that in such unreported cases and cases that do not see court, that the accused are so much as inconvenienced, let alone penalized by employers and peers who never hear word of the matter anyway.

If they dont hear a word of the matter. If they do, like say through the internet or social media, it is highly damaging to the accused reputation and may result in termination of employment.

That's more to do with fundamental disagreements over what constitutes "rape" than any legitimate methodological or statistical complaint.

My point being that the USA putting all sexual crimes, from misemeanours like groping to felonies like rape, all under one umbrella term is highly detrimental to the statistic's value in this argument.

What privatized medicine? Rape kits are virtually never tested, as they are tested in-house and police see their priorities as (anywhere) else.

...he's not arguing about the rape kit's usefulness he's arguing the rape kit's price. Which was a consequence of having free market healthcare not this "rape culture"

Seriously do you even finish reading before you start replying?

Inebriation legally precludes consent.

Alcohol is and has long been humanity's most powerful external tool for sellf replication. To automatically assume that intoxication percludes consent results in absurdity; if that was true at least 50% of all men and women in recorded history who have bred are rapists, including a good number of your ancestors.

Sexual history would be even less relevant here than a record of plagiarism.

If we take consent earlier in an encounter or in an earlier encounter to be meaningful, then we must ask of those who insist that this is so how it can be judged to affect the case in any principled way.

If they have a history of agreeing to fuck every man/woman in sight it would add validity to an argument in court that the prosecution was doing the same with this one, only they regretted it later.

How do you figure that?

Common sense.

[Montmorency]

No it doesnt. It indicates that the Legal consequences of rape accusations are minimal.

So what indicates the opposite for the non-legal? That feminists take such things seriously? What a paradox you place yourself in.

If they dont hear a word of the matter. If they do, like say through the internet or social media, it is highly damaging to the accused reputation and may result in termination of employment.

Most employers overreact at any legal trouble on a low-level employee's part. This has nothing to do with your position.

My point being that the USA putting all sexual crimes, from misemeanours like groping to felonies like rape, all under one umbrella term is highly detrimental to the statistic's value in this argument.

It's not clear that you understand what the figure actually encompasses.

...he's not arguing about the rape kit's usefulness he's arguing the rape kit's price. Which was a consequence of having free market healthcare not this "rape culture"

Seriously do you even finish reading before you start replying?

The free market does not pay for rape kit tests as I plainly said.

Alcohol is and has long been humanity's most powerful external tool for sellf replication. To automatically assume that intoxication percludes consent results in absurdity; if that was true at least 50% of all men and women in recorded history who have bred are rapists, including a good number of your ancestors.

It is not a very ambiguous legal standard.

If they have a history of agreeing to fuck every man/woman in sight it would add validity to an argument in court that the prosecution was doing the same with this one, only they regretted it later.

And how do you figure that? Your common sense again?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The UK is not a "Rape Society".

A man accused of Rape is tarnished for the rest of his life unless he can positively disprove it.

[Montmorency]

Again, what evidence is there beyond your personal ideal?

A businessman would never commit fraud as any of his subordinates or associates would report him immediately for such a vile distortion of free exchange and he would never be involved in enterprise again unless he could conclusively demonstrate to independent auditors that everything is above-board.

[Greyblades]

So what indicates the opposite for the non-legal?

This:

Most employers overreact at any legal trouble on a low-level employee's part. This has nothing to do with your position.

A rape accusation causes that overraction and bars the accused from later jobs, that's a social consequence that even you admit happen.

It's not clear that you understand what the figure actually encompasses.

Again, stealing the words from my mouth.

Considering we dont even have a source for his stats noone can. The Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network defines sexual assault as "unwanted sexual contact that stops short of rape or attempted rape, counting it as it's own crime, so I'm not sure why its presented as proof of a rape culture.

The free market does not pay for rape kit tests as I plainly said.

So you agree with me.

It is not a very ambiguous legal standard.

So I can have sex with a willing woman but if she has any amount of alcohol in her it's rape?