IMMIGRATION thread

[Fragony]

Don't want to be the elephant, but women refugees are loose wild in asylum-centres as well. The little childrens of the childless mutti are testosteron-bombs. Gays and christians aren't safe there either and are going to get seperate quarters.


out, can take them out of the desert but you can't take out the desert.

[Shaka_Khan]

It all comes down to how the police handles this. If the offenders think they could get caught then they won't do it. Right now, they have this invincible feeling that they can't be touched by the police.

[InsaneApache]

It all comes down to how the police handles this. If the offenders think they could get caught then they won't do it. Right now, they have this invincible feeling that they can't be touched by the police.

Funny you should say that....

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well, I made the point a few months ago that these "migrants" demanding the right to settle in Germany has an excessive sense of entitlement and I think this is the same thing. I sounds to me like most of the sexual assaults in Cologne were gropings rather than rapes or sustained physical contact.

Obviously being groped is a horrible violation for a woman (or a man) and it shouldn't happen but I suspect these gangs of young men thought what they were doing was socially acceptable - given where they come from and how the German girls were dressed. Then you have to consider that these people have been told not to be afraid of the Police, because they're there to help, and I suspect that has translated into a lack of fear of punishment in their minds.

This is just the natural, and predictable, result of a large new immigrant community that has appeared in a country over night.

As to what to do - to begin with anyone arrested who is a recent immigrant whose status has not yet been determined should be deported. Germany should not accept refugees from Syria who are going to do these sorts of things to women, the convention of refugees was not designed to protect men like that and they are not deserving of sanctuary.

In the medium term the refugee communities need to be broken up and spread out as much as possible. Obviously immediate families should be kept together but there should be a policy of dispersing these people around the country so that they are encouraged to integrate rather than form ghettoes.

Edit: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35249612

Ah, so a bit more than groping, sexually aggravated muggings. These men were a bit more than just "gropey" in these touching too.

[Gilrandir]

Germany should not accept refugees from Syria who are going to do these sorts of things to women

They don't cofess at the bordercrossing what are they going to do. Hence, no admittance whatever.

[Kralizec]

I doubt that the police will catch all 1000 of them.

The articles I've read about it are vague, but my impression is that 1,000 refers to all the young men gathered in the street and not the perpetrators. The reports say that large groups of men preyed on lone victims, "large groups" possibly meaning 20 or more, but the idea of 1,000 sexual predators gathering in one place to cause trouble seems ridiculous.

And yes, of course that is still bad, and it probably has more than a little to do with the background of the perpetrators. One would hope it's not necessary to explicitly say so after a post like this one, but you know, internets

[Greyblades]

Pray tell, why Germany should spend time and resources educating people who should not be there in the first place?

Well, according to this guy it's because germany needs the infusion of young workers due to an aging population.

[Greyblades]

Well things got a lot more complicated at the border. Islamic State can make fake Syrian passports.

[Fragony]

Well things got a lot more complicated at the border. Islamic State can make fake Syrian passports.

That's old news, Turkey's maffia have been doing that for months, costs a few thousands. We have no idea who's who

[Greyblades]

But my reason for making a statement like that...

-According to the FBI (not a policy group), only 1 in 10 sexual assaults gets reported.
-Also according to the FBI, only 1 in 10 sexual assaults that get reported actually have charges filed.
-Also, according to... you guessed it, the FBI, 1 in 20 perpetrators that get charged actually end up getting convicted.
-That means there's a 1 in 2000 chance you won't get away with it.

To say I am not impressed, with how you can come to that conclusion, would be an understatment.

That the first statistic is an estimate based on... I cant imagine, cynicism? How can anyone give accurate stats on things that are unreported?

The second statistic is entirely based on victim willingness to press charges, the motives of which cannot be stated with confidence as each one could be anything from "well it was just a kiss, we were on a date so maybe I shouldn't be getting so worked up" to "his family will kill me if I press charges" or even "I'm lying and I can't trust the court will fall for it"

And the third is completely irrelevant as we have no idea how many of those 9/10 unconvicted cases were innocent and thus justified.

From this you cannot in good conscience say sexual assulters have a 1 in 2000 chance of getting caught.

Compounding this is my understanding that in america sexual assault has a wide reaching definition, some would say absurdly so. How much of that useless 1 in 2000 stat regarding rape and how much is just accidentally overstepping the desired bounds in a date? We cannot know.

-Until a federal spending bill 2 years criminalized the practice, hospitals used to bill the victim for their rape kits in most jurisdictions.

Was this a "rape culture" problem or a privatised medicine wanting to make money problem?

-Unlike theft, assault, arson, murder of other serious crimes, rape trials are as much about the victim as they are about the defendant:
-What was she wearing
-What was her sexual history
-Was she alone? Why?
-Had she been drinking?
-Was she acquainted with the perpetrator? Did she agree to some consensual contact prior to the assault?

The first and third questions is irrelavent and should be rightly ridiculed but the rest are very important in determining concent, as a major problem in rape accusations is victims retroactively denying concent.

My original point however still stands. "Those filthy brownies are after our women" is so played out, I'm surprised you don't see it for what it is. 1) There's an overwhelming majority of those folks that are not involved in this and 2) if anybody goes after your women... there's your problem. If a Freemason burns my house down, I go after arsonists, not the Freemasons.

Agreed, and if the arsonists are Freemasons we should go after them regardless of their status.

[Greyblades]

The report says Islamic State has access to Syrian government passport printing machines and blank passports, raising the possibility the travel documents could be faked, CNN reported, citing a law enforcement source. (cnn.it/1Rf6lE1)

Last I checked Turkey doesnt have the official passport printers.

[Montmorency]

And the third is completely irrelevant as we have no idea how many of those 9/10 unconvicted cases were innocent and thus justified.

It is quite important as it indicates that the social consequences of rape accusations are minimal unless you go so far as to assume that in all the unreported cases and all the cases that do not see court, there are still fewer 'true rapes' than there are spurious trials, and that in such unreported cases and cases that do not see court, that the accused are so much as inconvenienced, let alone penalized by employers and peers who never hear word of the matter anyway.

How much of that useless 1 in 2000 stat regarding rape and how much is just accidentally overstepping the desired bounds in a date? We cannot know.

That's more to do with fundamental disagreements over what constitutes "rape" than any legitimate methodological or statistical complaint.

Is this a "rape culture" problem or a privatised medicine wanting to make money problem?

What privatized medicine? Rape kits are virtually never tested, as they are tested in-house and police see their priorities as (anywhere) else.

but the rest are very important in determining concent

Inebriation legally precludes consent.

Sexual history would be even less relevant here than a record of plagiarism.

If we take consent earlier in an encounter or in an earlier encounter to be meaningful, then we must ask of those who insist that this is so how it can be judged to affect the case in any principled way.

as a major problem in rape accusations is victims retroactively denying concent.

How do you figure that?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The articles I've read about it are vague, but my impression is that 1,000 refers to all the young men gathered in the street and not the perpetrators. The reports say that large groups of men preyed on lone victims, "large groups" possibly meaning 20 or more, but the idea of 1,000 sexual predators gathering in one place to cause trouble seems ridiculous.

And yes, of course that is still bad, and it probably has more than a little to do with the background of the perpetrators. One would hope it's not necessary to explicitly say so after a post like this one, but you know, internets

+1 Internets for stating what should be obvious, but isn't.

A back of the envelope figure for you -

90 reported sexual assaults, lets assume groups of three women and make an allowance for unreported assaults, say 35 separate instances of gang attacks - reports of groups of 20-30 men , average 25.

So - 25*35=875.

That assumes the number of unreported offences is quite low and each group of men only attacked a single group of women. I would say the latter assumption was relatively sound, as I can't really see groups forming, assaulting girls and then moving on to assault more girls. That kind of mob action tends to be a one off thing rather than something you repeat throughout the night.

In any case, 1,000 suspects is clearly not an improbable estimate.

[Greyblades]

It is quite important as it indicates that the social consequences of rape accusations are minimal

No it doesnt. It indicates that the Legal consequences of rape accusations are minimal.

unless you go so far as to assume that in all the unreported cases and all the cases that do not see court, there are still fewer 'true rapes' than there are spurious trials, and that in such unreported cases and cases that do not see court, that the accused are so much as inconvenienced, let alone penalized by employers and peers who never hear word of the matter anyway.

If they dont hear a word of the matter. If they do, like say through the internet or social media, it is highly damaging to the accused reputation and may result in termination of employment.

That's more to do with fundamental disagreements over what constitutes "rape" than any legitimate methodological or statistical complaint.

My point being that the USA putting all sexual crimes, from misemeanours like groping to felonies like rape, all under one umbrella term is highly detrimental to the statistic's value in this argument.

What privatized medicine? Rape kits are virtually never tested, as they are tested in-house and police see their priorities as (anywhere) else.

...he's not arguing about the rape kit's usefulness he's arguing the rape kit's price. Which was a consequence of having free market healthcare not this "rape culture"

Seriously do you even finish reading before you start replying?

Inebriation legally precludes consent.

Alcohol is and has long been humanity's most powerful external tool for sellf replication. To automatically assume that intoxication percludes consent results in absurdity; if that was true at least 50% of all men and women in recorded history who have bred are rapists, including a good number of your ancestors.

Sexual history would be even less relevant here than a record of plagiarism.

If we take consent earlier in an encounter or in an earlier encounter to be meaningful, then we must ask of those who insist that this is so how it can be judged to affect the case in any principled way.

If they have a history of agreeing to fuck every man/woman in sight it would add validity to an argument in court that the prosecution was doing the same with this one, only they regretted it later.

How do you figure that?

Common sense.

[Montmorency]

No it doesnt. It indicates that the Legal consequences of rape accusations are minimal.

So what indicates the opposite for the non-legal? That feminists take such things seriously? What a paradox you place yourself in.

If they dont hear a word of the matter. If they do, like say through the internet or social media, it is highly damaging to the accused reputation and may result in termination of employment.

Most employers overreact at any legal trouble on a low-level employee's part. This has nothing to do with your position.

My point being that the USA putting all sexual crimes, from misemeanours like groping to felonies like rape, all under one umbrella term is highly detrimental to the statistic's value in this argument.

It's not clear that you understand what the figure actually encompasses.

...he's not arguing about the rape kit's usefulness he's arguing the rape kit's price. Which was a consequence of having free market healthcare not this "rape culture"

Seriously do you even finish reading before you start replying?

The free market does not pay for rape kit tests as I plainly said.

Alcohol is and has long been humanity's most powerful external tool for sellf replication. To automatically assume that intoxication percludes consent results in absurdity; if that was true at least 50% of all men and women in recorded history who have bred are rapists, including a good number of your ancestors.

It is not a very ambiguous legal standard.

If they have a history of agreeing to fuck every man/woman in sight it would add validity to an argument in court that the prosecution was doing the same with this one, only they regretted it later.

And how do you figure that? Your common sense again?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The UK is not a "Rape Society".

A man accused of Rape is tarnished for the rest of his life unless he can positively disprove it.

[Montmorency]

Again, what evidence is there beyond your personal ideal?

A businessman would never commit fraud as any of his subordinates or associates would report him immediately for such a vile distortion of free exchange and he would never be involved in enterprise again unless he could conclusively demonstrate to independent auditors that everything is above-board.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Again, what evidence is there beyond your personal ideal?

A businessman would never commit fraud as any of his subordinates or associates would report him immediately for such a vile distortion of free exchange and he would never be involved in enterprise again unless he could conclusively demonstrate to independent auditors that everything is above-board.

An orgy of evidence - such as the Oxford student who was accused but against whom the case was dropped.

He now lives under a cloud.

It's like saying we're a "Murder Society" because people kill other people.

Rape is not permissible in the UK under any circumstances even if it might have been 50 years ago.

[Kralizec]

+1 Internets for stating what should be obvious, but isn't.

A back of the envelope figure for you -

90 reported sexual assaults, lets assume groups of three women and make an allowance for unreported assaults, say 35 separate instances of gang attacks - reports of groups of 20-30 men , average 25.

So - 25*35=875.

That assumes the number of unreported offences is quite low and each group of men only attacked a single group of women. I would say the latter assumption was relatively sound, as I can't really see groups forming, assaulting girls and then moving on to assault more girls. That kind of mob action tends to be a one off thing rather than something you repeat throughout the night.

In any case, 1,000 suspects is clearly not an improbable estimate.

I disagree, I don’t think your assumption makes a lot of sense. I’ve been to Keulen (as Dutch people know it) and as I recall the area in question isn’t that big, not large enough to accommodate many thousands. Are we going to believe that most of the males present engaged in this behaviour, or that everyone on the square was an Arab or African for that matter?
“Indecent assault” is a vague term and probably some of those could have been adolescent boys cupping a feel for giggles, before resuming their normal drunken behaviour for the rest of the night. Like petty vandalism, it’s something that I can believe that most of the people present would be capable of.

For the more serious ones though I think it’s very likely that they were committed by less than a hundred people total spread in three or four groups (and I think it’s plausible that they were of certain ethnicities). A group rape, or an assault bordering on rape requires some serious peer pressure and I don’t see a group of 1.000 people who’ve randomly gathered collectively engaging in it. I’d wager that most of those people where regular drunken rabble (brown or not), of the kind you see in every city on new years night.

[Greyblades]

So what indicates the opposite for the non-legal?

This:

Most employers overreact at any legal trouble on a low-level employee's part. This has nothing to do with your position.

A rape accusation causes that overraction and bars the accused from later jobs, that's a social consequence that even you admit happen.

It's not clear that you understand what the figure actually encompasses.

Again, stealing the words from my mouth.

Considering we dont even have a source for his stats noone can. The Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network defines sexual assault as "unwanted sexual contact that stops short of rape or attempted rape, counting it as it's own crime, so I'm not sure why its presented as proof of a rape culture.

The free market does not pay for rape kit tests as I plainly said.

So you agree with me.

It is not a very ambiguous legal standard.

So I can have sex with a willing woman but if she has any amount of alcohol in her it's rape?

[Husar]

Well, I made the point a few months ago that these "migrants" demanding the right to settle in Germany has an excessive sense of entitlement and I think this is the same thing. I sounds to me like most of the sexual assaults in Cologne were gropings rather than rapes or sustained physical contact.

Obviously being groped is a horrible violation for a woman (or a man) and it shouldn't happen but I suspect these gangs of young men thought what they were doing was socially acceptable - given where they come from and how the German girls were dressed. Then you have to consider that these people have been told not to be afraid of the Police, because they're there to help, and I suspect that has translated into a lack of fear of punishment in their minds.

A lot of the early reports said the groping was mostly to distract from theft and not so much for the sake of the groping itself. Men had things stolen from them as well that night.
Another issue was that the idiots fired firecrackers and other fireworks into the bystanders, eachother and at the police.
So it was not quite a rape party but lots of youths causing a whole lot of trouble that noone was prepared for.
Sometimes I wonder if, in extreme cases, the police should be allowed to fire warning shots and potentially shoot at the perpetrators as well. Maybe with rubber bullets only, but this just can't be allowed to happen. The videos below seem to show the police not even try to disband them though. If they did and the perps try to attack the police, the use of force should be allowed, I'm not advocating a massacre by police here.

This is just the natural, and predictable, result of a large new immigrant community that has appeared in a country over night.

Some say most of them were later generation immigrants who had been here for a while and actually organized this large-scale thing.
So whether they all recently migrated here is not really sure, except if you are the kind who is always right.

As to what to do - to begin with anyone arrested who is a recent immigrant whose status has not yet been determined should be deported. Germany should not accept refugees from Syria who are going to do these sorts of things to women, the convention of refugees was not designed to protect men like that and they are not deserving of sanctuary.

I fully agree, if this does not have a destructive impact on an asylum application then our laws here are even more terrible than I already think.

In the medium term the refugee communities need to be broken up and spread out as much as possible. Obviously immediate families should be kept together but there should be a policy of dispersing these people around the country so that they are encouraged to integrate rather than form ghettoes.

Some families should have been deported decades ago when they began to build criminal empires, but apparently it is relatively easy to get around the law, there is a judge in a huge city who has been under police protection for many years now because he dared to sentence a "family member" to jail despite the death threats he already got before that. This sort of thing HAS to be broken up before the judicial system is completely undermined.
However, not a new problem, Germany is also a retirement and business location for Italian mafiosi because the laws here allow them to operate/live here with such ease. But at least we can jail all the people who copy a CD now -> progress.

Ah, so a bit more than groping, sexually aggravated muggings. These men were a bit more than just "gropey" in these touching too.

Yes.

Here they have a video of what was going on in general, the groping was certainly not the only bad thing going on.

http://www.focus.de/regional/videos/...d_5189367.html

and another one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe_69mhjjmU

Also going by the beer bottles lying around, there cannot have been a lot of muslims among them...

[Fragony]

Developing, police of the 80 people the police checked, claim ALL were suppesedly the children of the childless mutti. All from Syria. Weird dentists, IT-experts and professors

welcome mi casa su casa

[Husar]

Developing, police of the 80 people the police checked, claim ALL were suppesedly the children of the childless mutti. All from Syria. Weird dentists, IT-experts and professors

welcome mi casa su casa

http://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/p...ogenszene.html

Developing, police say all the suspects identified so far are long-known criminals (i.e. not recent immigrants) who have been involved in drug-trafficking in huge criminal groups for the last two years. Police cannot do much against these groups because they only run around with amounts they can claim to be for personal use when caught and use a lot of tricks to hide the drugs etc.

Further indication that this was a concerted effort is that they changed their headwear to make video identification harder, a trick hooligans use as well when they expect to be videotaped.

[Fragony]

That's what the police-top says, but not what the boots (incognito) say. Police-top also said that it was a quiet night, 4 days later it turned out it hardly was, not going to believe either all too soon.

It wouldn't look very good for the childless mutti if what the boots say is true no?

edit, lt's in Die Welt, it's not all but most. Robbery and sexual-assault could be unrelated probably. http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschla...alflow_twitter

[Husar]

edit, lt's in Die Welt, it's not all but most.

Thank you, found it:
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschla...lbewerber.html

That makes three versions:
Police chief of Cologne: unknowns
Head of the german police union: long-known criminals
policemen on the street: new immigrants

The policemen further say that the "sexual amusement" was indeed the primary motivation of the perpetrators.
Whether that is good or bad for Merkel, I don't give a daisy, everyb ody who does not do this is still welcome as far as I'm concerned, if they already got copies of the sylum papers of the perpetrators, it should be easier to deny them and deport them though. Would send an interesting and new message to everybody else with crazy ideas. I understand not wanting to be a victim, but when you create other victims elsewhere, then I don't understand anymore.

[Fisherking]

It is still a controversy. Officers on the street reported a large number of refugees at the site during the time of the assaults.

Political tap-dancing on the issue is only going to make it worse and give more credence to the rightwing groups. Worse still a total loss of faith in media in one of the few countries where there is still a little left.

When politicians and police leadership tell people that cops on the street are lying or misinformed it has a very hollow right to it.

http://www.thelocal.de/20160107/poli...logne-assaults

http://www.thelocal.de/20160108/colo...over-up-claims

http://www.thelocal.de/20160105/brus...pet-is-foolish

[Fragony]

For now, of tbe 32 alledged assaulters 29 were 'refugees'. Official.

[Montmorency]

An orgy of evidence - such as the Oxford student who was accused but against whom the case was dropped.

He now lives under a cloud.

It's like saying we're a "Murder Society" because people kill other people.

Rape is not permissible in the UK under any circumstances even if it might have been 50 years ago.

I can't tell what specific case you are referring to, so I can't say that you aren't falling into the exact foolish fallacy I pointed out a number of posts ago.

The one point you have is that the tautological formulations of "rape culture" do suffer from bordering on your formulation of "murder culture".

A rape accusation causes that overraction and bars the accused from later jobs, that's a social consequence that even you admit happen.

Not a rape accusation, but a public circus over a public accusation, usually before any charges are filed or considered. So, no.

counting it as it's own crime, so I'm not sure why its presented as proof of a rape culture.

I am trying to be generous to you, but do you really not understand that in legal terms and in statistical terms "sexual assault" and "rape" are indeed two distinct crimes that are treated differently, but that both fall under the broader category of sexual crime?

So you agree with me.

Let me be more straightforward: municipalities pay for rape kits and their testing. Don't be obtuse.

So I can have sex with a willing woman but if she has any amount of alcohol in her it's rape?

No - the legal standard is that, like juveniles and animals, an intoxicated individual is incompetent to give consent. When intoxication results for a given individual under given circumstances, or the wider philosophical questions surrounding the nature of law in light of philosophy of mind, do not change that this is the given legal standard that we rule by.

[Fragony]

I wouldn't call it a public accusation but just more information slipping in. If that information is true I simply can't know but it looks pretty bad so far for those who bagatilise/relativate what seems to have happened.

[Myth]

Cultural enrichment in France:

https://www.facebook.com/FREI.statt....1121288934347/