IMMIGRATION thread

[Greyblades]

And how does the employer get wind?

Does it matter? Whether through the machinations of a vindictive accusor, the digging of a sensationalist press or the failure in legal confidentiality the very knowledge that one is accused of rape is enough to lose a person thier job in western society.

That those accused will be ostracised or punished by most who hears of it, regardless of evidence presented, puts a great hole in the idea that our society is one "trivializes, rationalizes, or even condones rape and other acts of sexual violence" which is the core of the idea that is rape culture.

My point is that police crime labs test rape kits, although if they're out of money they try to find ways to bill insurance providers, not test the kit, or just not collect materials for a kit at all. A rape kit itself is just some bags, sleeves, folders, cotton swabs, documents, and glass slides. There is no meaningful "free-market" component.

Don said:

Until a federal spending bill 2 years criminalized the practice, hospitals used to bill the victim for their rape kits in most jurisdictions.

No mention of crime labs or the composition of the kit, only that the hospitals charge victims for thier use.

I asked if this was really proof of a rape culture or an example of privatised medicine, aka that the hospitals charged out of a desire to make money, not to hurt rape victims.

Is there a problem with his very premise of hospitals charging for rape kits? Did it never happen at all? Take it up with him. I'm pointing out that even taking it as fact it does not clearlt indicate rape culture as he presents it. Your responses have been so irrelevant to that as to nearly constitute non sequitur.

Rape is a subset of sexual assault. Figures given regarding rape are distinct from figures given regarding sexual assault[...]

[...]In essence, rape appears with striking rarity in the justice system, largely due to the complete inability to agree on epistemological or legal or procedural standards, due to the deeper philosophical questions around consent and the nature of law.

Way to waste 5 paragraphs worth of space by addressing none of my issues with Don's figures.

Or have I misread and you agree with me and just suck at expressing approval?

Ask the legal philosophers. Any answer is bound to have profound consequences for the wider role of consent in law, so be careful.

To make this simpler for you, here is the general direction of feminist agendas:

1. Libertarian emphasis on "consent" and "autonomy".
2. More stringent definition rape.
3. Conformity toward reevaluated conceptions of consent and rape as well as institutional support such that reporting is encouraged.
3. Cultural change away from beliefs and attitudes that lead individuals to fall afoul of the above.

Please try to understand on what grounds you contest feminist narratives. The idea that the narratives should be contested because accusations of rape are especially likely to be damaging, or spurious, or open to public discovery, is what we call an utter moron horseshit lie.

I take back "nearly" in nearly a complete non sequitur. I have no goddamn idea how any of that relates to my post.

Do you even read what I say any more?

[Fragony]

Doesn't matter what consitutes to rape, what matters is that the little children of the childless mutti don't give a crap about their host countries values

They weren't just touched but also robbed, just saying. Apoligists say that they are just confused because women and men are in seperate worlds where they come from (which is nonsense), but surely they must know that they cannot rob.

[Sarmatian]

Doesn't matter what consitutes to rape, what matters is that the little children of the childless mutti don't give a crap about their host countries values

They weren't just touched but also robbed, just saying. Apoligists say that they are just confused because women and men are in seperate worlds where they come from (which is nonsense), but surely they must know that they cannot rob.

And how do you explain that the police report says that those involved were intoxicated and high on drugs? That's forbidden in their culture? Did they already accept western cultural values? So quickly? You should rejoice if that's true.

[Fragony]

And how do you explain that the police report says that those involved were intoxicated and high on drugs? That's forbidden in their culture? Did they already accept western cultural values? So quickly? You should rejoice if that's true.

What can I say I don' know. I am not the only one who just doesn't know. I am no expert in these things but I don'tt expect others to be experts either, more like library-worldtravelers. But I would like to keep the argument that robbery is not ok. They couldn't have not known that it's not ok. Why talk about the sexual dimension in the debate if they certainly were doing something they knew was wrong? Mi casa su casa, not. Looks more like planting a flag to me. Without saying thats's the case.

mi casa su casa, going to shelter a Syrian gay/christian/woman in the room below me. Not classy but safe.

only them, no muslim no matter how nice.

[Gilrandir]

And how do you explain that the police report says that those involved were intoxicated and high on drugs? That's forbidden in their culture? Did they already accept western cultural values? So quickly? You should rejoice if that's true.

There is high probabiltity that they hadn't followed the code back there where they belong.

My mother's colleague moved to Israel 20 odd years ago. Her husband (both are Jewish) was much upset by the fact that he couldn't find any pork there. At first. When they found their way about the place they found out that it was called something like "white meat" and could be bought at certain places. So much for religious tenets: you follow them when it suits you, and when it doesn't - you evade them.

[Myth]

Hey, I'm not saying that all Africans or Muslims are bad. I'm saying that we have enough degenerates in our own countries to import more exotic flavours of degenerate from generally underdeveloped and backwards thinking countries.

Does not the UK have football hooligans and chavs? Yes they do. Do they need more of that type coming from Africa and the Middle East? No. What I want is strict control on who is allowed to come to Europe and stay here, instead of liberal morons standing with "refugees welcome" signs or making videos like the "mix it up" video that Swedish girl made.

If generalizations are bad then going on an "accepting all" spree is just as bad. Muslims demanding shariah law and the banning of pork in school cafeteria should just pack up and leave, they should not try to change the way the citizens of their host country live. African men who think rape is just a leisurely way to pass the time should be loaded on boats and sent back to the mud hut they crawled out of.

Are there doctors, dentists, engineers and kindergarten teachers amongst the refugees, migrants and other assorted rabble that tagged along from Africa, Afghanistan, Lybia and so on? Yes. Let them come. But degenerates need not apply, we have our local brand, thank you very much.

[Fragony]

There aren't any usefull people among the regugees, the usefull oned can go to an embassy and ask for asylum there, and take the plane from Damascus. Not that there aren't any real refugees, but most are welfare-tourists who don't want to ask asylum in the first safe coutry. Who behave badly on tops.

[Husar]

https://krautreporter.de/1242--was-f...er-koln-denken

Someone asked some actual refugees what they think about the incident, I'm sure you can be creative to read it if you want to.

I also agree that it would be much better if criminals had the word "criminal" in easily-readable letters on their forehead, maybe we can soon make that happen through genetic modification.

[Montmorency]

Does it matter? Whether through the machinations of a vindictive accusor, the digging of a sensationalist press or the failure in legal confidentiality the very knowledge that one is accused of rape is enough to lose a person thier job in western society.

So? Aside from the fact that such cases are vanishingly rare outside the university or celebrity world, what's the difference from me marching into your workplace and loudly accusing you of assaulting me and stealing my bike? If you're of very little value to your employer, you might be let off with few questions or followup. Rise a little higher up the ladder, and I would be ignored or even banned from the premises. You make too much of a trivial hypothetical.

That those accused will be ostracised or punished by most who hears of it, regardless of evidence presented, puts a great hole in the idea that our society is one "trivializes, rationalizes, or even condones rape and other acts of sexual violence" which is the core of the idea that is rape culture.

Not true at all; in very public cases, the accused routinely receive an extraordinary outpouring of public support. Friends, family, and industry colleagues (if the accused is a member of some profession or civil service) lock arms in their defense. You seem to have this strange paradox underlying your reasoning, that the fact feminists make an issue of rape means that society takes rape very seriously or even overreacts to it, which means that feminists have no cause to make an issue of rape. In other words, you use feminism to minimize or rule out the existence of the things feminism opposes.

I take back "nearly" in nearly a complete non sequitur. I have no goddamn idea how any of that relates to my post.

I'm afraid I can't help you then. Come back to it later if you like.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Monty, you realise Greyblades is in the UK and not the US, right?

In the UK, as in Germany, rape is probably a more socially unacceptable crime to commit or be accused of than some forms of murder. Our society will actually forgive some murderers, or at least sympathise with them. Rapists get nothing.

[Beskar]

In the UK, as in Germany, rape is probably a more socially unacceptable crime to commit or be accused of than some forms of murder. Our society will actually forgive some murderers, or at least sympathise with them. Rapists get nothing.

PVC is correct here. People who go to prison on rape-charges lie and say they are in for murder, not to be 'harder', but because there is a very strong taboo against it. The way it has been explained to me in the past is that people are in prison for crimes against society, they either crimes of passion, or crimes against property, or gang related. These prisoners are still people and all have families back at home, so when a rapist or child molester comes, it isn't just some guy who stole a TV, or killed someone they had a grudge with, but these are people who preys on their sisters and mothers, or who would prey on their children, nephews and nieces. So to these prisoners, the rapists and molesters are viewed as the ultimate scum of society.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

PVC is correct here. People who go to prison on rape-charges lie and say they are in for murder, not to be 'harder', but because there is a very strong taboo against it. The way it has been explained to me in the past is that people are in prison for crimes against society, they either crimes of passion, or crimes against property, or gang related. These prisoners are still people and all have families back at home, so when a rapist or child molester comes, it isn't just some guy who stole a TV, or killed someone they had a grudge with, but these are people who preys on their sisters and mothers, or who would prey on their children, nephews and nieces. So to these prisoners, the rapists and molesters are viewed as the ultimate scum of society.

An addendum to this - we spend millions every years protecting rapists and child molesters inside prison.

The reason?

Well - simply put, if the other prisoners look down on you for killing your wife a good way to mitigate some of that is to "execute" a "nonce".

The irony being that whilst many in the UK would probably call this Karma (not publicly, of course) we can't allow these monsters to be killed in prison because that's not the sentence handed down and letting it happen would make a mockery of justice.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

A couple of articles from the Independent:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a6800666.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a6804946.html

The second one suggest that there have now been over two hundred complaints of sexual assault, and over 500 criminal complaints in all.

Reportedly 18 of the 31 men detained were asylum seekers.

If it's true there have been so few arrested then there must be something rotten at the heart of the local Police. Even disregarding the sexual assaults that number is woeful when compared with something like the London riots which saw roughly 2,000 people arrested within a similar time frame.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_E...Race_relations

"By 15 August 2011 around 3,100 people had been arrested, of whom over 1,100 had appeared in court.[13] On 25 August the BBC reported that more than 2,000 people had been arrested in connection with the disorder in London."

"By August 2012, 1292 rioters had been handed custodial sentences totalling 1,800 years at 16.8 months on an average."

[Husar]

It's not so much a rotten police but rotten politics.
During normal days they are staffed with about ten people at the train station, that day they has 55.
That's the federal police, but the police in general is understaffed unless they prepare for big events by asking for support in advance.
Now unless they should use fortune tellers, they could not quite expect this to happen, could they?

I also heard that people could only be sent back for crimes that have a minimum sentence of three years in prison.
As of this year they seemingly changed it to one year minimum sentence, but that still allows for a lot of theft etc. without any effect on their asylum application...

[Greyblades]

There is nothing probable about it. In modern Britain murder can be excused in times of war sympathyised with when done through strife, and even glorified if the killing happened for good enough reason.

There is no time or reason good enough for a full on rape to ever be excused. I cant imagine why it would be any different in the USA

So? Aside from the fact that such cases are vanishingly rare outside the university or celebrity world, what's the difference from me marching into your workplace and loudly accusing you of assaulting me and stealing my bike? If you're of very little value to your employer, you might be let off with few questions or followup. Rise a little higher up the ladder, and I would be ignored or even banned from the premises. You make too much of a trivial hypothetical.

A hypothetical with a series of high profile precidents. To normal people this is called a valid trend.

Also I wonder what world you live in where petty theft holds the same social stigma and provokes the same response as a rape accusation. An accusation for a crime such as that is akin to a social suicide attack; two enter but it only ends once one is reduced to a social pariah and noone escapes completely unscathed in the eyes of witnessess.

I have to ask; why do you think there is anyone valuable enough to a company to afford becoming known as the guys who protected a rapist

Not true at all; in very public cases, the accused routinely receive an extraordinary outpouring of public support. Friends, family, and industry colleagues (if the accused is a member of some profession or civil service) lock arms in their defense.

You pay too much heed to appearances.

An accusation from outside will always result in the family locking arms but there is allways an impact on the accused. Onlookers cannot see it but the doubt is always present in the minds of all but the closest of relations. Every friend and family member on the lookout that the trust they hold in that person is not being betrayed and even the hint of those fears being vailid will be seized upon in thier heads and the relationships are never left unaffected.

When the accusation comes from inside the family or circle of friends things get a lot less composed.

Take it from one who has witnessed two cases first hand; Such lingering doubts, left unresolved, will hang over everyone involved for decades. Even after the death of the accused it does not dissapear and I can assure you it is an unplesant state for a family to be in.

You seem to have this strange paradox underlying your reasoning, that the fact feminists make an issue of rape means that society takes rape very seriously or even overreacts to it, which means that feminists have no cause to make an issue of rape. In other words, you use feminism to minimize or rule out the existence of the things feminism opposes.

You are the only one in this thread who has mentioned feminism.

I'm afraid I can't help you then. Come back to it later if you like.

A poor teacher is one who cannot make himself understood. You are a very poor teacher.

[Fisherking]

@Beskar I was a little surprise buy you in-depth analysis, which I will read as soon as I have a spare moment. (wife in hospital) so no irony intended.
I don’t disagree with the underlying message the poster intended. Only in how it was done.

I first noticed the “no true Scotsman” but there is also a bit of a “special appeal” and “genetic” in the way it was expressed.

[Beskar]

I don’t disagree with the underlying message the poster intended. Only in how it was done.
I first noticed the “no true Scotsman” but there is also a bit of a “special appeal” and “genetic” in the way it was expressed.

I don't really see the "no true Scotsman" myself, but that might be because I am reading into it differently than you. Nothing stands out to me as being 'no true Scotsman' unless you are meaning the argument but then they go out of their way to say there are problems in other cultures, so it wouldn't be one...
I agree it puts together two opposing viewpoints loosely, which I will concede author bias, which at a stretch would be a loose Strawman of the opposing opinion. I am curious as to what you read into it (doesn't have to be as tl;dr as mine).

(I hope your wife is gets well soon)