IMMIGRATION thread

[Husar]

I understand that. It's kinda tragic he wears his Dutch pasport as a batch. People who think the Netherlands is an open-minded society are deeply mistaken, he will never be one of 'us' no matter how hard he tries. It's even in our language, autochtoon (native Dutch) and allochtoon (not white, exception for people from former colonies)

Actually, it sounds like your language is just full of immigrants as well, because this one is Greek and we have it as well, just not used much outside academical contexts here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoch...ncient_Greece)

Don't even try to say that it's a native dutch word because you changed two letters.

PFH was joking. The ultimate clue can be seen in the pre-Christian Sweden part.

Can't be! He just cannot not put a smiley or another overly obvious clue there and expect anyone here to get it!

That is a bit sad frankly. What about his kids? What if he had kids with an autochtoon? I'm surprised that Netherlands has not moved on from their colonial history in their language.

In a land far, far away, a people once made a chart for that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial...mberg_laws.jpg

[Snowhobbit]

In a land far, far away, a people once made a chart for that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial...mberg_laws.jpg

Well it is awful generous of the to let the half-bloods mix with the pure-bloods... Well well, there were better things coming out of Nuremberg before the 50s anyway.

[Husar]

Man, Europe is not only ready for another cheek, it actually is ready to swallow its values and principles to please a moneybag offering a nice contract.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a6834836.html

Yeah, talking about TTIP, which is getting ready very soon. And while the US steals all our jobs that way, we complain about poor people stealing our jobs.

Oh wait, Italy? You mean you expected a country that re-elected a media mogul who was BFFs with Gadaffi, and that now gives him another chance in politics after he was ousted for being corrupt and trying to undermine democratic principles, to be better than that?

As for swallowing all demands of a moneybag, that's capitalism, ever heard of Sheldon Adelson?
http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign...rubio-guessing

Politicians visit this guy's home in order to get funding from him to run for president. I assume it looks like this:

[Fragony]

Actually, it sounds like your language is just full of immigrants as well, because this one is Greek and we have it as well, just not used much outside academical contexts here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoch...ncient_Greece)

Don't even try to say that it's a native dutch word because you changed two letters.

In Greece it's antipolis I think but I'm not sure if that's right, wiki can be wrong. That is more a matter of citizinship though, not a destinction like autochtoon and allochtoon. I could be wrong.

[Sarmatian]

Admit he is a peg better than you. You can discern nationalities only face to face with the people. Jealous?

Not just nationalities. I see a guy, I can tell you his height, weight, blood type and which ninja turtle is his favourite.

[Husar]

In Greece it's antipolis I think but I'm not sure if that's right, wiki can be wrong. That is more a matter of citizinship though, not a destinction like autochtoon and allochtoon. I could be wrong.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/autochthon

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de...sch/autochthon

An original or indigenous inhabitant of a place; an aborigine.
[...]
Late 16th century: from Greek, literally 'sprung from the earth', from autos 'self' + khthōn 'earth, soil'.

Of course the dictionaries could be wrong, too. And maybe you don't even exist.

[Myth]

Not just nationalities. I see a guy, I can tell you his height, weight, blood type and which ninja turtle is his favourite.

Trick question, everybody likes Master Splinter the best!

[Sarmatian]

Yeah, but that is unavoidable; unless you expect other countries to provide you with a stream of young people for the rest of the world's existence. As things are now, only countries with low life expectancy can expect to avoid this fate in the long run. In the scenario that all countries end up similarly wealthy, there may no be countries with young people to export.

It is a short term solution, but it a solution. You can't raise pension age by 5-10 years immediately and expect no backlash. You can raise it little by little over the next several decades. Bottom line - there is no other way at the moment. You can argue that the backlash won't be that significant it might be better to ride out the storm (with which I disagree), no political establishment will consider it, so it is moot.

Duh.

So why go there? If there's a global catastrophe that threatens world's ability to produce food, we're screwed, 50,000 Muslims more or less in a specific country.

I don't see this sub-debate going anywhere any time soon.

That is very,very true.

Which is to say that any solution does not involve making citizens younger (although it is highly likely that aging can be both halted and reversed at some point in the future), but would rely on things like technology and new ways to arrange society (reforms).

We're talking realistic solution for our age. I don't really give a rat's ass what human's go do in the 29th century.

Which also happens/happened to consistently be one of the most peaceful places in Europe.

It also happens to be the least populated, most out of the way place in Europe, with the worst climate.

Even if we say that terrorist entities abroad are a vital part of the radicalisation, they are only an issue because there exists a Muslim population in Europe in the first place. The larger this population is, there more people might travel to whatever areas the terrorist entities are active within; and these areas don't have to be very large before they are capable of contributing to such radicalisation (and attempts at destroying such terrorist nests can also increase local radicalisation..).

That kind of flies in the face of every single civil liberty and human right, like presumption of innocence. It also defies logic to claim there is a a serious threat when there have been a few dozen, or even hundreds, a European Muslim terrorists out of a population of 50 000 000.

It sometimes defies belief how deep this subconscious racism and bigotry goes. For comparison sake, imagine if US closed its borders for well-off white males, because school shooters are predominantly well-off white, Christian males. Imagine how ludicrous that would even sound. No one would even think about it, because, it's us . We won't think there's a problem with us. We'll seek individual reasons for every single one. No one would stop for a second to think there's something inherently wrong with well-off white, Christian males that makes them a security danger, but most have no problem with labeling another group as problematic based on actions of a very few.

[Snowhobbit]

That kind of flies in the face of every single civil liberty and human right, like presumption of innocence. It also defies logic to claim there is a a serious threat when there have been a few dozen, or even hundreds, a European Muslim terrorists out of a population of 50 000 000.

It sometimes defies belief how deep this subconscious racism and bigotry goes. For comparison sake, imagine if US closed its borders for well-off white males, because school shooters are predominantly well-off white, Christian males. Imagine how ludicrous that would even sound. No one would even think about it, because, it's us . We won't think there's a problem with us. We'll seek individual reasons for every single one. No one would stop for a second to think there's something inherently wrong with well-off white, Christian males that makes them a security danger, but most have no problem with labeling another group as problematic based on actions of a very few.

I'm just curious. Is the German intelligence forces populated with racists? Because they warned last autumn that the influx was a threat to national security for three reasons. 1, the fact that among the influx were terrorists and people with the capacity and intent to commit violent acts. 2, that the large numbers would lead to isolated diasporas which prevent integration and breeds resentment and ultimately violence. 3, the extreme-right response to all of these things.
Is the US under an influx of over 1 million well-off white Christian males who enter their country illegally?

[Snowhobbit]

Trick question, everybody likes Master Splinter the best!

Since when are rats turtles?

[Pannonian]

That kind of flies in the face of every single civil liberty and human right, like presumption of innocence. It also defies logic to claim there is a a serious threat when there have been a few dozen, or even hundreds, a European Muslim terrorists out of a population of 50 000 000.

Have the ever encroaching human rights now included free transit to and from countries, regardless of border policies? Is the UK allowed to have its own borders, or was it overridden by human rights and civil liberties at some point in the past?

[Viking]

It is a short term solution, but it a solution. You can't raise pension age by 5-10 years immediately and expect no backlash. You can raise it little by little over the next several decades. Bottom line - there is no other way at the moment. You can argue that the backlash won't be that significant it might be better to ride out the storm (with which I disagree), no political establishment will consider it, so it is moot.

It can solve the problem with age distribution in the short term, yes; and that's indeed as far as the agreement goes.

So why go there? If there's a global catastrophe that threatens world's ability to produce food, we're screwed, 50,000 Muslims more or less in a specific country.

The context is the sub-debate that didn't go anywhere; e.g. mass-migration over a century or two.

We're talking realistic solution for our age.

So am I, the parenthesis was for accuracy's sake (various forms of anti-aging treatments could very much be relevant for this topic in some decades from now on; so as far as prediction goes, it shouldn't be left out).

It also happens to be the least populated, most out of the way place in Europe, with the worst climate.

Denmark isn't particularly "out of the way", but it didn't get the ethnic division like e.g. "out of the way" Northern Ireland has, introduced.

That kind of flies in the face of every single civil liberty and human right, like presumption of innocence.

Too bad. It's not about anyone's guilt or innocence, but what is actually happening: what the actual consequences of the migration are. I am indifferent to lofty ideals in that context.

It also defies logic to claim there is a a serious threat when there have been a few dozen, or even hundreds, a European Muslim terrorists out of a population of 50 000 000.

Depends on what you mean by "serious threat". It's smart to use a seat belt, but you can drive a car your entire life without really needing it; it depends highly on your luck. Likewise with terrorist attacks.

No one would even think about it, because, it's us .

That's also why the comparison fails. The hypothetical immigration scenario would be roughly similar to simply increase the native population through higher fertility rates. Immigration from countries with radically different cultures, would not be.

[Montmorency]

That's ratcist.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Wow. That is a very... Race driven method. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find support for such a restriction in any of our political parties. Going by blood ties back a millennia, sheesh. I do hope you know that the state of Sweden did not functionally exist during the pre-Christian period?

[Snowhobbit]

Most impressive trolling, much contribution.

[Myth]

If they can't say the Prayer to the Allfather in Old Norse and spell their father's father name in Elder Futhark then the are not Swedish.

[Beskar]

Most impressive trolling, much contribution.

Oh no, he is serious.

He can trace back his linage to some 600 hundred minor Jarl who lived near Västervik on his fathers side, he however has a decidedly Roman name and English upbringing so does not conform to his own definition of Swedish, but proudly says about his heritage.

[Snowhobbit]

Oh no, he is serious.

He can trace back his linage to some 600 hundred minor Jarl who lived near Västervik on his fathers side, he however has a decidedly Roman name and English upbringing so does not conform to his own definition of Swedish, but proudly says about his heritage.

And what do you require to identify an individual as a Swedish person?

[Fragony]

And what do you require to identify an individual as a Swedish person?

A mixture of self-destruction orchestrated by self-congratulaing women with spikey-hair and Munschausen by proxy should do. Home of the Stepherd-wives

[Husar]

A mixture of self-destruction orchestrated by self-congratulaing women with spikey-hair and Munschausen by proxy should do. Home of the Stepherd-wives

I wish I knew what you said, I have a suspicion that it may be funny.

As for "Teaching those immigrants a lesson!", there is also the France-edition now: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/0...035243925.html

"France has a responsibility to ensure public safety and try to prevent further attacks, but the police have used their new emergency powers in abusive, discriminatory, and unjustified ways," said Izza Leghtas, Western Europe researcher at HRW, calling for an immediate end to warrantless searches and house arrests.

"This abuse has traumatised families and tarnished reputations, leaving targets feeling like second-class citizens."

Apologies for the self-flaggelation and self-hatred. I know they shouldn't cry too much, in the home of the brave, land of the free they would have shot the dog* and maybe the owner, too, people have to too good in Europe.

*if Muslims had dogs

[Snowhobbit]

As for "Teaching those immigrants a lesson!", there is also the France-edition now: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/0...035243925.html



Apologies for the self-flaggelation and self-hatred. I know they shouldn't cry too much, in the home of the brave, land of the free they would have shot the dog* and maybe the owner, too, people have to too good in Europe.

*if Muslims had dogs

I don't really see the issue. That is how the system works in France, and if "throwing a Quran on the floor" is part of what is needed to prevent another mass murder in Paris/France then that's just how it goes.

[Gilrandir]

Not just nationalities. I see a guy, I can tell you his height, weight, blood type and which ninja turtle is his favourite.

You fall utterly short of my expectations. I thought you could also tell a person's favorite faction in MTW and his ability to handle horse archers.

And what do you require to identify an individual as a Swedish person?

Something evoking "frozen water" in his name.

[Greyblades]

In one house raid, HRW said, police broke four of a disabled man's teeth before they realised he was not the person they were looking for
[...]
In another case recorded by Amnesty, police forced open the door of an elderly man with heart problems, causing him to faint. He was later taken to hospital in an ambulance, while his daughters - one of whom is disabled - were handcuffed and screamed at by officers.

.Immediately after a terrorist attack of such scale and savagery, I'm surprised the police wern't more abusive to their suspects.

"This abuse has traumatised families and tarnished reputations, leaving targets feeling like second-class citizens."

I'm pretty sure it was the terrorists not the police that tarnished their reputations.

[Husar]

I don't really see the issue. That is how the system works in France, and if "throwing a Quran on the floor" is part of what is needed to prevent another mass murder in Paris/France then that's just how it goes.

Why did France attack Gaddhafi if their system is basically the same?

.Immediately after a terrorist attack of such scale and savagery, I'm surprised the police wern't more abusive to their suspects.

Because two wrongs make a right? If an Englishman stabbed someone with a knife in London should they raid your house and lead you naked outside in the middle of the night because you're an Englishman, too? Seems right in the spirit of the Magna Carta, no?

I'm pretty sure it was the terrorists not the police that tarnished their reputations.

And this is why we need lynch mobs and trials by ordeal back!

[Greyblades]

I see you're in another "Overusing strawmen and misrepresentations to hide my current inability to debate" phase.

Or is this a "I've lost faith in my reasoning but I am still unable to change my viewpoint and the ensuing mental struggle causing me to fail to fully comprehend the oppositions posts" phase?

I can rarely tell which.

[Snowhobbit]

Why did France attack Gaddhafi if their system is basically the same?

Would you please direct me to the French torture chambers?
How many lives is a Quran on the floor worth to you? When an apartment gets searched they tend to do it quickly. I got my bags searched in an airport once and you don't see me crying about it.

[Husar]

I see you're in another "Overusing strawmen and misrepresentations to hide my current inability to debate" phase.

Or is this a "I've lost faith in my reasoning but I am still unable to change my viewpoint and the ensuing mental struggle causing me to fail to fully comprehend the oppositions posts" phase?

I can rarely tell which.

I don't know what phase of dismissal you're in but we tend to have laws and judges for a reason. These searches were warrantless and apparently mostly random if there were hardly any arrests. We have an entire police brutality thread in the Backroom where similar cases are frowned upon and yet here it is all fine because "terrorism and they're all brown", which is not a direct quote in case it makes you angry otherwise.

Would you please direct me to the French torture chambers?
How many lives is a Quran on the floor worth to you? When an apartment gets searched they tend to do it quickly. I got my bags searched in an airport once and you don't see me crying about it.

There was not just a quran on the floor:

In another case recorded by Amnesty, police forced open the door of an elderly man with heart problems, causing him to faint. He was later taken to hospital in an ambulance, while his daughters - one of whom is disabled - were handcuffed and screamed at by officers.

Many of those interviewed said they were now scared of the police and have been shunned by their neighbours. Some said they were seeking to leave the country out of fear.

The latter may be the desired effect of such measures. You basically ruin the lives of people by making all their neighbors suspect them (really helps integration!) and make them lose trust in the government.

France's government has said it will ask parliament to renew the state of emergency for another three months.

"But it has not provided compelling evidence that would justify the need to continue these sweeping measures," said HRW.

And then you also extend these "do whatever you want"-powers because it's so nice to have them and you just want to save people.
My point can also be found in the article:

"Freedom, equality and fraternity have been badly damaged in the weeks since the November attacks. France should live by those words and restore their meaning."

I'm worried about our western values, but it's not the muslims who are eroding them, a few of them just push the right buttons and then we do it ourselves.

[Snowhobbit]

There was not just a quran on the floor:




The latter may be the desired effect of such measures. You basically ruin the lives of people by making all their neighbors suspect them (really helps integration!) and make them lose trust in the government.



And then you also extend these "do whatever you want"-powers because it's so nice to have them and you just want to save people.
My point can also be found in the article:



I'm worried about our western values, but it's not the muslims who are eroding them, a few of them just push the right buttons and then we do it ourselves.

When there is a state of emergency then those rules apply. If the rules say no warrants are needed, then no warrants are needed.

It is generally common for police officers to handcuff people when making arrests or detaining individuals.

I suppose they can queue up behind the jews who are leaving the country due to actual danger.

[Husar]

When there is a state of emergency then those rules apply. If the rules say no warrants are needed, then no warrants are needed.

A state of emergency usually requires some kind of emergency. Since they hardly charged anyone after a lot of raids, why the state of emergency? And noone has to believe their emergency rules are fair.

It is generally common for police officers to handcuff people when making arrests or detaining individuals.

That doesn't change that plenty of people around the globe complain about HOW they do it and TO WHOM they do it at times. Are they all wrong?

I suppose they can queue up behind the jews who are leaving the country due to actual danger.

What does that have to do with this issue or are we back to "two wrongs make a right"?

[Husar]

Just to be fair to @Fragony, I found one of these rare, crazy arabophile dhimmis you keep mentioning:

http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschl...?fbc=fb-shares

There is this german "education expert" who seriously suggested we should introduce Arabic as a second language in school that is a valid school language in general next to German (i.e. maths for example could be taught in German and Arabic even varying within a lesson as everyone should understand both). He justifies that by saying that we should prepare for the important transofrmations that will happen in the arabic world within the next decades and that will make it an important economic, cultural and political partner to whom we can then advertise ourselves better.

I have to say I laughed because this really does sound crazy and I can think of half a dozen languages I would rather give this position to, most importantly English (which Arabs can/should and do also learn...).
So yeah, it's almost like finding a yeti for me, but crazy multicultists do apparently exist.