IMMIGRATION thread

[Snowhobbit]

And how is that question related to what I said? I said sub-saharan African young men often try to get to Europe and claim that they want to become rich and famous here. And I said we have the right to send them back... Where do the bombs come in?
If you do want me to make a connection, since we bombed Gaddhafi it became a lot easier for them to board a boat and head off to Europe.



See, this is the problem, you talk about push factors for these people and ignore that even unintentional bombing of civilians can be an enormous push factor...
And then there was the western bombing and occupation of Iraq that was such a failure that ISIS spawned and became a huge push factor in the first place. You can say it was well-intentioned and this and that, but that does not change that it pretty much directly lead to these developments. And people need to take responsibility for their actions, or so I've heard. In that way it's funny of course that Iraq was mostly Britain and the US and now they hardly want anyone fleeing from ISIS. They will probably blame the Iraqi army but maybe they just weren't trained well enough...



Yes, as I said, I can understand why people want a better life, but we still can't take all of them. We could however stop screwing them over economically for our own gain given that we are doing really fine already anyway. Not going to happen, I know.
But consider that companies like De Beers and so on extract a lot of wealth from African soil and are mostly remnants of the colonial days. However, the wealth they collect mostly goes to Europe instead of benefitting the supposedly sovereign nations... If rebels try to fight it, we send advisors to the governments loyal to us to fight them. Not that the rebels were always a better choice but we do make sure usually that the governments keep our corporations operating and so on. Lately it seems that China and other Asian nations start to invest heavily in Africa, we will see how that goes (I assume not very well for the Africans either), but just because they also exploit others that does not make us any better.
If you want more examples:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-34707266
http://www.siliconafrica.com/france-colonial-tax/
http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles...cism-of-france
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...od-478419.html
http://fm4.orf.at/stories/1682425/
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-25660385
http://www.theecologist.org/News/new...in_africa.html

We can debate for a long time about some of it being technically illegal but the fact remains that greedy Europeans who may in some cases have almost more financials than entire african states (i.e. can afford better equipment, bribes, etc.) are taking advantage of their weakness. Again, doesn't mean we have to take them all, but we could at least treat them like humans and not like cattle. And let in the ones who are actually fleeing from terrible circumstances such as war and persecution.



I'm not sure about Afghanistan, but we pay Morocco, Algeria etc. to keep all the Africans at bay. They also refuse to take some people back, partially, I assume, because they do not have Moroccan passports (anymore) or came to Morocco from elsewhere and so on. Now if we stop paying them, they will just let everyone enter a boat or let thousands of people climb into Spanish territory. At the moment they do already beat them up severely if they catch them because we (the Spanish) pay them to do that. The following report covers that:

It is related to the claim that Europe is responsible for the push factors (we are responsible for most of the pull factors mind), something which you might not have stated but which has been stated by other posters. Since last summer most people come through Greece/Turkey though, no? Either way since we don't seem to disagree on this I'll drop the subject.

Well, I would guess that the push factor of coalition strikes occassionally killing civilians pales in insignificance compared to Syrian forces, Russian forces, Al-Nusra, ISIS etc. etc. How many people actually flee from coalition strikes specifically? How many flee from ISIS areas, as opposed to the rest of the country? Europe as a whole was largely not part of the Iraq war, but if you want to send the bill to UK and the US I won't mind. I'm sure we could tally up a fairly large invoice in Sweden, and your German politicians would likely jump at the chance to have someone else pay?

Is Germany doing fine? Sweden is certainly not. If you could send some of that blood diamond money our way it would be a big help. Companies are not countries nor do they represent the citizens living in those countries. You are mixing pears and apples claiming that we are responsible for De Beers and should pay the price. I'm not sure what I have said that makes you think I believe we should treat them like cattle... But to be clear I believe we should treat them as human beings. You know, since that is what they are. Another question, if you are sitting in a safe refugee camp, are you then fleeing from war if you leave that camp?

Generally they refuse to take back minors and we usually cannot send back children unless someone will receive them. Generally because they do not want career criminals who would continue to be career criminals, which is understandable on some level, but if they are citizens then they have to take them anyway. The Spanish problem could largely be solved by giving up those enclaves, perhaps in return for getting Gibraltar back? I dunno, just musing on how to solve the issue in a nicer way. Thanks for the video, I'll look at it later.