IMMIGRATION thread

[Fragony]

Voldemort?

Did someone ever tell you you are boring, must have

[Snowhobbit]

Who?



Decide? That's a nice word for it.

Our feminists have decided that the common denominator is as always men, so the answer is men are doing it! Horrible men...

Yes, we have decided that it is better than not doing so, we have additionally voted for representatives to decide how much we should pay in tax and where it should be spent.

[Snowhobbit]

None, did I ever say otherwise? The only issue I have with what you say is that when you talk about the people who move there and the ones who do not behave, you say "they" in both cases, which can easily look like you mean exactly the same group of people (i.e. all of them). It's not so hard to say "some of them" in the second instances to make it clear that you mean a sub-group, is it? Or are you actually saying that none of the immigrants in Sweden can behave themselves?
And please don't talk about common sense or whatever, you do this all the time and it confuses people all the time.



I'm not against arms deals in general, but some governments just can't be trusted with them. Including the US government apparently. While I like Colombia in general, it is currently not a country to which german arms exports are legal. The rules state that arms cannot be sold to any country if that country wants to resell them. Heckler & Koch sold guns to the US Army and they then sold or gave them on to Colombia. The german police raided the Heckler & Koch offices as a result due to the suspicion that Heckler & Koch was aware the guns would not stay in the USA. So yes, it is not always completely controllable, but I'd say it's pretty clear like you say, that countries like Saudi Arabia are not reliable customers for our weapons. We can't even exclude that they don't hand some of them to their allies in Syria or elsewhere. In addition Saudi Arabia and the UAE are currently involved in a war in the region to support their own interests and are definitely using European weapons such as the Leclerc tanks of the UAE. I'm not entirely up-to-date on who the bad guys are down there but it certainly produces a lot of refugees and Saudi Arabia is not exactly known to have our best interests in mind anyway. If even the US ignore our weapon sales restrictions in the most blatant way, how can we trust SA or other unreliable countries to abide by them?



Nope, that's pretty interesting though. I only knew that a whole lot of nations used the 40mm design though, apparently some were derivatives or modified ones, but overall quite a widespread gun.



There are so many things to say about that:
1) I wouldn't say it is squandered on all of the immigrants.
2) I like the idea that I pay taxes to help those who are more in need, both Germans and foreigners.
3) If you do not like what the government spends taxes on, you can elect a different government. In some cases it may have other consequences though or require a new party. Democracy isn't always easy.
4) If your other countrymen do not agree with you and do not vote for the government you want, what are you going to do? Flee to somewhere else to save your precious taxes from being squandered?

Well, obviously if we are selling it to someone with that someone having the intention to sell it to a third party then we are to some extent responsible for doing our due diligence and preventing that within reasonable measures. However if someone 5-10 years later decides to sell it, there is little we can do. Equally if say the Iraqi army decides to flee head over heels when they outnumber their foe 20 to 1, we cannot be held responsible for the fact that ISIS seized all of their nice big guns. We can't trust SA, though the biggest reason to not sell to them is how they treat their own population. Which is why the attempt to do so was in violation of Swedish law and a fake company had been set up to assist in the deal.

1) It is not squandered on all immigrants per definition. But we spend more than the entire Afghan budget+aid on unaccompanied "minors", at a minimum we spend 350 euroes per day per "child". I put these words in quotations because we have had "children" who are 20, 25, 30 and in one case 40+ years old. Or take for example the fact that we have housed people in tents at about 200x the cost of housing people in tents in Lebanon/Turkey. That is a waste of money that could be better spent anywhere pretty much, especially in the refugee camps where we would get a lot of bang for our bucks. Did you know that this has caused us to cut foreign aid to the tune that one of the programs estimate a further 20,000 will die from AIDS/Malaria/TB and a further 800,000 will get infected? This is waste.
2) Yes, helping other people is good, but then we should help people who are in need. Like the people who live in the camps who are too poor to pay a smuggler several thousand Euros to be smuggled into Europe.
3) The sad fact of the matter is that we are ruled by a minority government in which the opposition has forced the government to make their budget with the communists. So until 2018 I can't affect much change, in the meanwhile I will have to bear it, but I will reserve the right to bitch and moan about it!
4) If we continue down this dark path (all signs point to us heading off that path finally) then the least of my concern is tax money. But so long as the EU remain, I may well exercise my right to move to another country if that looks like a better option. I should add that I am not getting taxed up the wazoo currently, but I don't see why that should make me support blatant waste of tax money? I'm not saying it should be given back directly to the tax payer, I'm saying we should spend it where it gets more impact. Are you aware that we spend more on this than the entire UNHCR budget for refugees? Imagine how much the situation in those camps could be improved with twice the money! The UNHCR is quite efficient at managing the camps.

As always I'm rather late to the party (hey hey!) but I'll leave my two cents here.
IMO EU isn't responsible. And they shouldn't be allowing the hundreds of thousands inside their borders.
More than a hundred years ago there was this thing about the 'White Man's Burden' which made a lot of European nations do stuff that today would be considered really really bad. What they're doing today is perhaps equally bad.
You lot don't have any burden or moral obligation. Whatever has happened has happened. Doing stupider stuff to fix that isn't going to help anyone. Two wrongs don't make a right and two stupid actions don't make an intelligent action.

Thanks for sharing your opinion, if you don't mind could you clarify what you mean by "Doing stupider stuff"? Are you referring to bombing campaigns/interference in the Middle East? The current refugee situation?

[Snowhobbit]

Errmm...that was actually my point.....that the terms were being used interchangably....a point Snowhobbit was oblivious to, actually...

That you use words improperly is no reason to keep using them improperly. The different words denote different things but if you want to insist that apples are pears that is your problem.

[Snowhobbit]

Also, Gaius is right to stress the distinction between "migrant" and "refugee". I don't want to point fingers as some people just make an honest mistake in confusing the two, but often it's just sloppiness. Many Dutch people, including journalists, use the terms interchangably and this thread is a good illustration of how this can pollute a discussion.

(an alternative term is asylum seeker; meaning anyone who claims to be a refugee but hasn't been through the procedure yet)

But Gaius is not stressing the distinction, he is claiming that they are two words meaning the same thing.

[Sarmatian]

You should read about the Mui Tsai then, where the British ignored their pledge to rule according to Chinese custom and traditions, and ended a longstanding Chinese custom because of British moral values, against much native Chinese opposition. Today, that tradition is seen as a source of shame for the Chinese, and its banning by the British as an overdue move to bring Hong Kong in line with the modern world and values. Absolutely nothing to do with British interests, and everything to do with Britain's own tradition of opposing slavery and anything that smells of slavery.

I'm sure there are positive examples and cases where British went against their interest to help the local population, but on the whole, the point still stands.

I don't see a comparison with a hyeana as something entirely different from comparison to a pig. I've heard people make hyena comparisons before in other contexts. When I didn't have my drivers license yet my instructor called bicycle and scooter drivers hyeanas whenever he saw them breaking trafic rules (happens often), like callously ignoring traffic lights when they think they can safely get away with it. Likewise, comparisons with vultures are commonplace when people are perceived to take financial advantage of other people's misery. The idea being that both hyenas and vultures are opportunistic and "cowardly". It's not flattering, but calling it "dehumanising" is a long stretch.

Really? Well try using both and tell me if the reaction was the same.

Did someone ever tell you you are boring, must have

While you consider repeating childless mutti and wir schafen das about 50 times is an example of a stimulating discussion. Interesting...

[Snowhobbit]

Really? Well try using both and tell me if the reaction was the same.

I hope you are aware that the connotation of words can be very different in different cultures. In Sweden neither of those words would render you a slap if used. You might be viewed as impolite depending on the situation though (or deranged).

[Fragony]

While you consider repeating childless mutti and wir schafen das about 50 times is an example of a stimulating discussion. Interesting...

Of course it is, just not the one you want. Merkel is known to have a messias-complex, also within her own party. Wir schaffen das is the only things she keeps repeating, more than I do

[Gilrandir]

Thirdly, context Frags, if a woman sees a man's penis and calls him a horse, or a stud after sex, she is not insulting him. It's a metaphor. Calling someone a pig is a metaphor for one's lack of table manners, or any manners for that matter, and can be done as a good natured jest, especially in male-female relationships or among friends. Comparing someone with hyenas is way worse than that, as hyenas are most commonly associated with something ugly, dirty, smelly, feeding on carcasses etc... None of the is true, actually, but we project that onto them. So, comparing someone with a hyena is very insulting. You already knew that, but you've already decided on the outcome, blah, blah, blah....

I don't see a comparison with a hyeana as something entirely different from comparison to a pig. I've heard people make hyena comparisons before in other contexts. When I didn't have my drivers license yet my instructor called bicycle and scooter drivers hyeanas whenever he saw them breaking trafic rules (happens often), like callously ignoring traffic lights when they think they can safely get away with it. Likewise, comparisons with vultures are commonplace when people are perceived to take financial advantage of other people's misery. The idea being that both hyenas and vultures are opportunistic and "cowardly". It's not flattering, but calling it "dehumanising" is a long stretch.

In fact, all of those examples are metaphors. Metaphor has nothing to do with evaluation. It appears whenever one concept domain is viewed as another concept domain. Evaluations imparted to the purpose of the process don't change its nature.

Yes, the only thing separating me from a racist is that I am faster to insult.

This is a delusion. Don't flatter yourself that there is only one thing.

[Snowhobbit]

This is a delusion. Don't flatter yourself that there is only one thing.

Why don't you just go back into the hole you crawled out of? Or did Russia take that back also?

[Gilrandir]

Why don't you just go back into the hole you crawled out of? Or did Russia take that back also?

The ultimate argument which is always handy. Didn't expect anything else, though.
Let's see what kind of hole immigrants will make your country into, Chillouthalfling.

[Snowhobbit]

The ultimate argument which is always handy. Didn't expect anything else, though.
Let's see what kind of hole immigrants will make your country into, Chillouthalfling.

Oh you are one of those? Sorry I don't have the time of day for Ukranian Nazies.

[Sarmatian]

Of course it is, just not the one you want. Merkel is known to have a messias-complex, also within her own party. Wir schaffen das is the only things she keeps repeating, more than I do

Funny how messiah-complex only surfaced when the refugee crisis began.

Anyway, if you want to be taken seriously, stop parroting slogans and start acknowledging facts.
Otherwise, I will continue to call bollox on your posts when I feel like it. At the moment I feel like doing it every time but I may get bored in the future. If you can't live with that, you can put me on ignore and you won't even know when I call bollox.

Oh you are one of those? Sorry I don't have the time of day for Ukranian Nazies.

I see an epic yo mamma battle coming soon.

[Fragony]

Migrant-crises came when the childless-mutti said everybody is welcome and decided to ignore the Dublin-treaty. That is the fact Aristotallos

[Snowhobbit]

I see an epic yo mamma battle coming soon.

Yo mamma so fat it takes 100 polite green men to carry her away?

[Sarmatian]

Migrant-crises came when the childless-mutti said everybody is welcome and decided to ignore the Dublin-treaty. That is the fact Aristotallos

Dublin treaty didn't envisage anything on this scale. Enforcing Dublin treaty fully would burden Greece with more than 3/4 of a million refugees.

Main goal of Dublin treaty was to stop orbiting asylum seekers, those that are denied in one country and then move to the next, then the next and so on.

Yo mamma so fat it takes 100 polite green men to carry her away?

Yo mamma's so ugly that even the refugees won't molest her.

[Fragony]

errrrrm, no

I don't know Snowhobbit's mom by the way so can't comment on that

[Snowhobbit]

Yo mamma's so ugly that even the refugees won't molest her.

I'd hope not! She's been dead for 3 years :D

[Fragony]

ouch that was painfull, this is where people with good manners usually apoligise

[Sarmatian]

You can't start a yo mamma battle and expect people not to answer.

[Fragony]

Can expect people to apoligise if they could have hurted someone's feelings just to be sure you didn't. And don't even start about me comparing those assholes in Collogne to hyena's, I am not offended when my sometimes girlfriend calls all men dogs.

Bad manners muchacha

[Sarmatian]

Can expect people to apoligise if they could have hurted someone's feelings just to be sure you didn't. And don't even start about me comparing those assholes in Collogne to hyena's, I am not offended when my sometimes girlfriend calls all men dogs.

Bad manners muchacha

I didn't hurt anybody's feelings, as evidenced by the big smile emoticon. And it is utterly my decision. If you believe I did something wrong, that is your prerogative, but I don't really care.

[AE Bravo]

http://www.vice.com/read/german-mma-...paramedics-876

Europe may be the most (socially) racist places in the world, some of the posts here validate that. It's no wonder that a religion with no racial context cannot adapt into a civil society that has that elephant in the room. It's funny how the privileged are irritated by people who just escaped hell, something they haven't had a taste of. Thats what it comes down to with the right, entitlement.

[Greyblades]

Europe may be the most (socially) racist places in the world, some of the posts here validate that. It's no wonder that a religion with no racial context cannot adapt into a civil society that has that elephant in the room. It's funny how the privileged are irritated by people who just escaped hell, something they haven't had a taste of. Thats what it comes down to with the right, entitlement.

[Pannonian]

http://www.vice.com/read/german-mma-...paramedics-876

Europe may be the most (socially) racist places in the world, some of the posts here validate that. It's no wonder that a religion with no racial context cannot adapt into a civil society that has that elephant in the room. It's funny how the privileged are irritated by people who just escaped hell, something they haven't had a taste of. Thats what it comes down to with the right, entitlement.

Syrians in Turkey are refugees who have just escaped hell. Syrians who travel further west are migrants, not refugees. Name the European country that borders Syria.

[Papewaio]

http://www.vice.com/read/german-mma-...paramedics-876

Europe may be the most (socially) racist places in the world, some of the posts here validate that. It's no wonder that a religion with no racial context cannot adapt into a civil society that has that elephant in the room. It's funny how the privileged are irritated by people who just escaped hell, something they haven't had a taste of. Thats what it comes down to with the right, entitlement.

The elephant in the room is that virtually every ME country is dominated by one religious sect or another and is a hell hole that these people are trying to escape.

Religion and its opiate uses on the masses is the issue not enlightened democracies. Proof is in the lack of upward mobility, corruption and war in the countries the people are escaping and a lack of the ME countries of the same religion resolving the problems with a spectrum of initiatives ie boots on the ground, NGOs or taking in all the refugees themselves.

Western workers compounds get attacked all the time in the ME even in supposedly stable countries. What would be headline news in the west is quietly swept under in the ME.

Comeback when they have functioning middle class democracies with social mobility rather then sponging off a geographical fluke of oil that is found, pumped, refined by other people. ME will have zero clout at the UN as soon as oil subsidies are removed and other energy sources are utlised. Talk about failed states, take away oil and they have nothing the rest of the world wants.

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

But Gaius is not stressing the distinction, he is claiming that they are two words meaning the same thing.

Your incomprehension is astounding. Truly, I can't think of an individual I have ever entered discourse with who has had less insight or understanding...even of just a couple of sentences.

Readthis slowly, one word at a time. I was pointing out that the term immigrants had simply been switched for the word refugees but was clearly referring to the same proposition - ie the words were being used snonymously (to mean the same thing). NOT that the words mean the same thing (or rather, they ought not) but that they had simply been conflated. I am perfectly aware that the two terms are distinct,hence my initial suggestion that the idea that the crimes related were carried out by "refugees" (specifically, as opposed to the more general "immigrants")was something certain posters might need to get upto speed with (the implication was exactly that it was not "refugees", but was actually other "immigrants") and the next post (which you appear to want to defend...???) was a sarcastic post conflating the two terms.

Christ on a bike, could you be any more clueless? Read the actual posts....you know, the words, in their order and you'll decipher what they mean. That's how this whole writing and reading malarkey works.

[AE Bravo]

The elephant in the room is that virtually every ME country is dominated by one religious sect or another and is a hell hole that these people are trying to escape.

Religion and its opiate uses on the masses is the issue not enlightened democracies. Proof is in the lack of upward mobility, corruption and war in the countries the people are escaping and a lack of the ME countries of the same religion resolving the problems with a spectrum of initiatives ie boots on the ground, NGOs or taking in all the refugees themselves.

Western workers compounds get attacked all the time in the ME even in supposedly stable countries. What would be headline news in the west is quietly swept under in the ME.

Comeback when they have functioning middle class democracies with social mobility rather then sponging off a geographical fluke of oil that is found, pumped, refined by other people. ME will have zero clout at the UN as soon as oil subsidies are removed and other energy sources are utlised. Talk about failed states, take away oil and they have nothing the rest of the world wants.

The problem with the European rightwing mind is that...

1) Their government displaces an entire population abroad

2) Displaced people come flooding

...and they blame it on their people rather than their government. Basically their governments are fucking them over with no repercussion, Islamophobia/xenophobia is a scapegoat.

[Papewaio]

Oh I agree with you on that.

If someone is doing such horrible things we bomb them.

Then we either follow up with boots on the ground AND stabilize the region OR accept the refugees running away from the failed state.

EDIT

Also the Enemy of your Enemy might be a good reason to make friends with your Enemy not make friends with the second lot.

Bombing Lybia to help Gadaffis enemies isn't smart when those enemies are now dominated by Caliphate in a box.

[Pannonian]

Oh I agree with you on that.

If someone is doing such horrible things we bomb them.

Then we either follow up with boots on the ground AND stabilize the region OR accept the refugees running away from the failed state.

EDIT

Also the Enemy of your Enemy might be a good reason to make friends with your Enemy not make friends with the second lot.

Bombing Lybia to help Gadaffis enemies isn't smart when those enemies are now dominated by Caliphate in a box.

Or better still, in the future when the Muslim country regime du jour maltreats their population, we do nothing for or against either side, and leave them to their own devices. If there is displacement, it's nothing to do with us. I was strongly against intervention in Libya and Syria (and Iraq for that matter).