IMMIGRATION thread

[Fragony]

You always talk about how many people are not safe in German refugee camps. What makes you think they would be safe in refugee camps elsewhere? Or please just expand on what exactly you mean.

They don't come to Germany with the intention to go home. If you travel any further than the first safe country you stop being a refugee and become a migrant.

[Husar]

They don't come to Germany with the intention to go home. If you travel any further than the first safe country you stop being a refugee and become a migrant.

Yeah, well, if I told you you can live in a trashcan here and return to live in a toilet in five years, or you could try to go get a good life in a faraway land, what would you prefer? If money is their sole motivation, how come they didn't all come before there was a war?

[Pannonian]

Yeah, well, if I told you you can live in a trashcan here and return to live in a toilet in five years, or you could try to go get a good life in a faraway land, what would you prefer? If money is their sole motivation, how come they didn't all come before there was a war?

And if Britain is any indicator, you can leave for a faraway land to make your fortune, be welcomed by the locals, integrate yourself into British society, raise a family that's as inculcated in local norms as any other British family. And your children decide this isn't for them, decide to identify themselves with the Muslim nation that their parents left rather than the British nation that raised them, and become a jihadi to kill abroad or even in Britain. And aside from those who take violent action, there are quite a few who cheer them on, even though they too were born in and raised in Britain.

For every other community, you can expect a process of integration, but once that process is done, future generations are accepted as indelibly British. Only among the Muslim community do you have such a proliferation of de-integration, so that at no point can you be confident that integration is done, and there is a good chance that those who de-integrate themselves will turn to violent action against Britain and Britons. And such is the loyalty of British Muslims to Britain, that they're more likely to fight for ISIS than to fight for Britain.

Nope, as MSK says, his people is not the British people. We don't need any more of his people here.

[Sarmatian]

And such is the loyalty of British Muslims to Britain, that they're more likely to fight for ISIS than to fight for Britain.

That is actually not true.

There are some 650 Muslims in British Armed Forces and some 450 British Muslims fighting in Syria, in all groups, although the estimation is that the majority of those 450 are indeed with ISIS.

There have been more British Muslims in Syria but they became disillusioned with various opposition forces who either collaborated with fundamentalists or were in fact fundamentalists themselves.

Don't think every single person who went to Syria is a traitor.

The number of attacks was few, but what about the number of victims? The Russian plane that fell in Egypt would make up for a dozen terror attacks victim-wise.

"quite a few" meaning a respectable number. Russia wasn't a target of Middle Eastern terrorists before Russia started meddling in Syria.

Point being, it contradicts the notion that terrorism isn't connected to a political goal.

[Snowhobbit]

That is actually not true.

There are some 650 Muslims in British Armed Forces and some 450 British Muslims fighting in Syria, in all groups, although the estimation is that the majority of those 450 are indeed with ISIS.

There have been more British Muslims in Syria but they became disillusioned with various opposition forces who either collaborated with fundamentalists or were in fact fundamentalists themselves.

Don't think every single person who went to Syria is a traitor.



"quite a few" meaning a respectable number. Russia wasn't a target of Middle Eastern terrorists before Russia started meddling in Syria.

Point being, it contradicts the notion that terrorism isn't connected to a political goal.

Do I need to boil my previous post down so that it does not contain as much information in response for you to address it?

[Pannonian]

That is actually not true.

There are some 650 Muslims in British Armed Forces and some 450 British Muslims fighting in Syria, in all groups, although the estimation is that the majority of those 450 are indeed with ISIS.

There have been more British Muslims in Syria but they became disillusioned with various opposition forces who either collaborated with fundamentalists or were in fact fundamentalists themselves.

Don't think every single person who went to Syria is a traitor.

They're not traitors. To be a traitor to Britain, you have to be British, then betray Britain. As your earlier quote illustrates, British Muslims are Muslims, not British. Even if they were born in Britain, if they are Muslim, then their people is the Muslim nation, not Britain.

[Sarmatian]

Do I need to boil my previous post down so that it does not contain as much information in response for you to address it?

What previous post?

They're not traitors. To be a traitor to Britain, you have to be British, then betray Britain. As your earlier quote illustrates, British Muslims are Muslims, not British. Even if they were born in Britain, if they are Muslim, then their people is the Muslim nation, not Britain.

That is a few Muslims, not all Muslims.

You'd have a much better case calling Scots traitors, as almost a half of them don't consider themselves British.

[Pannonian]

What previous post?



That is a few Muslims, not all Muslims.

You'd have a much better case calling Scots traitors, as almost a half of them don't consider themselves British.

Except I'm no longer calling the Muslims traitors. They're not British, by their own admission, so they can't be traitors to Britain. What the Muslims demonstrate is that, unlike nearly every other immigrant community, there is no reliable process of integration for them. However well any individual or generation integrates, there is a high likelihood that somewhere along the line there will be someone who decides they are Muslims first and British nowhere, and that this justifies violence against the British people. Which, since they had a birthright of British citizenship, they can more easily carry out. Same problem with the French apparently, who have also produced their own homegrown jihadis. In the light of that, there is no good reason to admit yet more Muslims into the UK, whatever guilting arguments people want to impress on us. Accept the current situation as a loss, and stop its further spread from abroad. Syrians shouldn't go through the normal admissions process. They shouldn't be admitted, full stop.

[Fragony]

Sarmatarian has a point though, those who went to Syria aren't necesarily traiters, a substantial amount went to fight Assad when IS didn't exist at the time. It's different of course for those who go now. There are Dutch ex-military militias who fight alongside the Kurds, traitors as well, Turkey is a Nato-partner after all and they kinda dislike Kurds. I say go militias

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

And if Britain is any indicator, you can leave for a faraway land to make your fortune, be welcomed by the locals, integrate yourself into British society, raise a family that's as inculcated in local norms as any other British family. And your children decide this isn't for them, decide to identify themselves with the Muslim nation that their parents left rather than the British nation that raised them, and become a jihadi to kill abroad or even in Britain. And aside from those who take violent action, there are quite a few who cheer them on, even though they too were born in and raised in Britain.

For every other community, you can expect a process of integration, but once that process is done, future generations are accepted as indelibly British. Only among the Muslim community do you have such a proliferation of de-integration, so that at no point can you be confident that integration is done, and there is a good chance that those who de-integrate themselves will turn to violent action against Britain and Britons. And such is the loyalty of British Muslims to Britain, that they're more likely to fight for ISIS than to fight for Britain.

Nope, as MSK says, his people is not the British people. We don't need any more of his people here.

I'm sorry but.....this is just rabid BS. I live in Leeds. We have a large Muslim population here, Muslims come from surrounding areas to work here (Bradford, Keighley, Huddersfield etc.). I know a lot of Muslims and, there are not "quite a few" who "cheer them on". They go to mosque, a number of them take their own annual leave to do charitable work. They are, in other ways, remarkably like the other human beings I live and work alongside. Who'd have thunk it, eh? That they might be like...people.

I don't see the menace you describe, it has no reality.

[Greyblades]

I'm sorry but.....this is just rabid BS. I live in Leeds. We have a large Muslim population here, Muslims come from surrounding areas to work here (Bradford, Keighley, Huddersfield etc.). I know a lot of Muslims and, there are not "quite a few" who "cheer them on". They go to mosque, a number of them take their own annual leave to do charitable work. They are, in other ways, remarkably like the other human beings I live and work alongside. Who'd have thunk it, eh? That they might be like...people.

I don't see the menace you describe, it has no reality.

"I cannot see god therefore he doesnt exist."

Tell me how many of the muslims you know are poor, how many are migrants, first generation, second? How many of them have you gone out and asked if they celebrate? How many of them would answer you truthfully if they did?

I dare say all of us british orgahs have similar experiences of british muslims, most of them are integrated fine and even ones that are not are sure to put on a brave face while in public but it is fallacious in the extreme to dismiss the existance of a undercurrent of sympathy just because you personally, as an outsider looking in, have not knowingly encountered it.

[Sarmatian]

"I cannot see god therefore he doesnt exist."

Tell me how many of the muslims you know are poor, how many are migrants, first generation, second? How many of them have you gone out and asked if they celebrate? How many of them would answer you truthfully if they did?

I dare say all of us british orgahs have similar experiences of british muslims, most of them are integrated fine and even ones that are not are sure to put on a brave face while in public but it is fallacious in the extreme to dismiss the existance of a undercurrent of sympathy just because you personally, as an outsider looking in, have not knowingly encountered it.

You actually wrote a post that makes sense.

With Snowhobbit educating people in law in the other thread, something bad is gonna happen tomorrow, I know it.

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

"I cannot see god therefore he doesnt exist."

Tell me how many of the muslims you know are poor, how many are migrants, first generation, second? How many of them have you gone out and asked if they celebrate? How many of them would answer you truthfully if they did?

I dare say all of us british orgahs have similar experiences of british muslims, most of them are integrated fine and even ones that are not are sure to put on a brave face while in public but it is fallacious in the extreme to dismiss the existance of a undercurrent of sympathy just because you personally, as an outsider looking in, have not knowingly encountered it.

I see you are shifting your argument somewhat now. Now it's only particular Muslims we need to watch or....they're lying to me. Yes, that's it. They're just very good liars. Those perfectly normal family lives, relationships we discuss.....? All just made up to cover their bomb-making and arms smuggling. Why those dirty scoundrels....why I oughta...!!



Let me remind you of what I was responding to:

"...What the Muslims demonstrate is that, unlike nearly every other immigrant community, there is no reliable process of integration for them. However well any individual or generation integrates, there is a high likelihood that somewhere along the line there will be someone who decides they are Muslims first and British nowhere, and that this justifies violence against the British people...."

"What the Muslims demonstrate"...you know like all of them, or the vast majority..."..there is no reliable process of integration for them..."

Rabid, vacuous nonsense.

[Greyblades]

I'm shifting my argument from one I have not made? Are you incapable of differentiating one speaker from another?

I was slapping you down for making a stupid argument, I dont really care what you were responding to, the fact remains the average man will rarely voice an opinion he holds that is deemed unpopular or even treasonous by society save behind closed doors. The lack of anyone openly admitting to such views withing your narrow perview does in no way make the presence of such sentiments an impossibility.

You actually wrote a post that makes sense.

Little is more worrysome than the madman declaring one sane, Nor anything more releiving than a sane man turned clear.

[Fragony]

Yeah, well, if I told you you can live in a trashcan here and return to live in a toilet in five years, or you could try to go get a good life in a faraway land, what would you prefer? If money is their sole motivation, how come they didn't all come before there was a war?

Because they weren't invited to come en masse back then

[Gilrandir]

Since Russian involvement in Syria, there has been a quite a few terror attacks on Russian soil or on Russian citizens abroad.

The number of attacks was few, but what about the number of victims? The Russian plane that fell in Egypt would make up for a dozen terror attacks victim-wise.