IMMIGRATION thread

[Hooahguy]

In the video in question there was a speaker who was advocating that listeners read the works of a known Holocaust denier. While it wasnt outright Holocaust denial, I felt it best to delete it not just because of the topic but because the video was causing a lot of tensions here. Although it seems like it didnt do any good.

[Gilrandir]

I felt it best to delete it not just because of the topic but because the video was causing a lot of tensions here. Although it seems like it didnt do any good.

You should have deleted Fragony and Legs. They cause a lot of tensions too.

[Fragony]

Why do I get the feeling that there was more than one link?

That thought is creeping up on me as well. The link I saw was an interview with a guy who's house was raided, he wouldn't be in such a facebook group if he wasn't a nazi-symphatiser but I saw no holocaust denial whatsoever, just a description of the raid. As for threats, the guys in black iron bars are antifa, you are German you know who they are. We have them here as well but not nearly as violent as in Germany, more like hobbyists

In any case, holocaust denial is illegal in Germany (which I find stupid), but glorifying nazis is not

[Husar]

Oh, we are talking about that nazi group video with the German whose house got raided? The one from last months that I forgot about and didn't watch because it's 1 hour and 21 minutes long? I won't argue about the legitimacy of that guy's case, I just want to leave this here:

http://www.theonion.com/infographic/...lt-right-53747

[Fragony]

You might just be right, we have never been talking about the same video probably. haven't seen the video you refer to either. But I can absolutily guaranty that video isn't the video that Greyblades posted, his hands are perfectly clean and doesn't deserve the insinuations

[Husar]

You might just be right, we have never been talking about the same video probably. haven't seen the video you refer to either. But I can absolutily guaranty that video isn't the video that Greyblades posted, his hands are perfectly clean and doesn't deserve the insinuations

The video I mentioned was posted by Greyblades...

[Beskar]

Yeah, about 10 minutes into the Greyblades video, turns out the guy was lying anyway. He originally said he "liked" a picture, in a group he was randomly invited in. Around 10 minutes in, turns out he was the one who actually posted the picture. It is around 40 minute mark, he is saying about a "historian" who is a holocaust denier.

Had it running in the background, I found it rather uninteresting and boring. Then i reverted to something more intellectually stimulating like CGP Grey.

I think people only watched it because they were fans of Sargon of Akkad and his kin, due to a persona of being part of a 'free thinking' 'free speech' movement. Though saying that, quoting from a different video, Sargon does say this about racists and racism:

I find racism hilarious. Racism is the most ridiculous thing I can possibly imagine. Actually being a geniune racist, as a serious position, is possibly one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. Comedy comes from absurdity.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Hate the restriction of free speech, as I have argued above. However, to be fair to the staff, they MUST conform to the legal requirements in force wherever our server(s) are located.

[Legs]

You might just be right, we have never been talking about the same video probably. haven't seen the video you refer to either. But I can absolutily guaranty that video isn't the video that Greyblades posted, his hands are perfectly clean and doesn't deserve the insinuations

Wow , absolutely incredible.
How much is a guarantee from Fragony worth?

[Husar]

Yeah, about 10 minutes into the Greyblades video, turns out the guy was lying anyway. He originally said he "liked" a picture, in a group he was randomly invited in. Around 10 minutes in, turns out he was the one who actually posted the picture. It is around 40 minute mark, he is saying about a "historian" who is a holocaust denier.

Had it running in the background, I found it rather uninteresting and boring. Then i reverted to something more intellectually stimulating like CGP Grey.

Around 37 minutes he says he had the old German Reichsflag in his window...
Give me a freaking break, the only people who display that are Neo Nazis (as a legal replacement for the illegal swastika flag) and maybe members of the Reichsbürgerbewegung, people who think that for one reason or another, the old empire from 1871 to 1918 is still the only legitimate German state or something like that. They're like Semi-Neo-Nazis because their ideologies are pretty close and I think they also often mix in demonstrations and so on. You can compare the latter somewhat to the Sovereign Citizens movement in the US.

So I guess when I immediately replied that the guy probably deserved to get raided because he's actually a nazi, I was quite right even without watching the entire video...

It's the typical "Boohoo, why is my hatred and non-acceptance of the jews and immigrants not accepted by the mainstream!?!" hidden in a lot of whining about how "the system is on their side" and so on.

Better to focus on the important issues like Beskar just said.

[Beskar]

Last time we discussed Holocaust Denial was here when the backroom had a neo-nazi paying a visit. The topic was pretty much put to rest. If you really want to talk about Holocaust Denial, there are websites on the internet that cater for that type of thing on the DarkNet.

As mentioned by Seamus, there are countries where denial is also illegal.

Anyway, this is an immigration topic, so please return to that.

[Fragony]

The org comes from the Netherlands, holocaust-denial isn't illegal here. But moderators should have the means to judge as they see fit. As it looks now this guy is full of shit.

[Legs]

The org comes from the Netherlands, holocaust-denial isn't illegal here. But moderators should have the means to judge as they see fit. .

Your prime minister says otherwise. But he isn't happy that Dutch courts cover Holocaust denial under incitement to hatred laws.

As it looks now this guy is full of shit

It looked that way all along, yet you chose to repeatedly defend him and his views which he expressed in the interview

[Husar]

Your prime minister says otherwise. But he isn't happy that Dutch courts cover Holocaust denial under incitement to hatred laws.

It looked that way all along, yet you chose to repeatedly defend him and his views which he expressed in the interview

It looks like Fragony is now (mostly) in agreement with you, there is no need to kick him further IMO other than to keep up a conflict.

So what about the idea that immigration will become irrelevant to job-concerns as robots and IT replace more and more workers anyway? How should we model a post-work society?

[Fragony]

Holocaust denial isn't illegal but it can be treated as incitement to hate thats true, and it's probably just that. You can deny anything for all I care if that's your thing. I find it stupid but go ahead.

Edit, and there is no reason to kick Greyblades at all, I watched the video he posted. It wasn't there.

[Greyblades]

One could say that a holocaust denial is usually inaccurate, hateful and used to harass people, it is also against a law.
And as if that weren't enough, it is an insult addressed to a group that is very inflammatory.

Do the servers fall under german jurisdiction now?

The main intent of posting the video was an example of how the german authorities (and anti-fa) are raiding people for "hate speech" on the internet; A man posts a provocative picture around on facebook: gets included in a raid of 60 people by the police and a mob defaces his home, then he explains his situation to interviewers a few days later. Simultaniously I wanted to show how the amount of zeal the german police when persuing these people is in stark contrast with the reluctance the german police have exhibited when responding to extremism of their immigrant population over the last two years.

The video contains no holocaust denial inside it, it has one man spend 5 seconds recomending the viewer listen to a speech by a holocaust denier, that only earns confusion from the interviewers and likely the listeners. You have to dig deep and reference other materiel to find any inflammatory material in it, and likely noone here would have noticed if legs wasnt looking for any excuse to dismiss this man's testimony and excuse his mistreatment, an excuse I am depressed to see some of the rest of you jump on.

In the video in question there was a speaker who was advocating that listeners read the works of a known Holocaust denier. While it wasnt outright Holocaust denial, I felt it best to delete it not just because of the topic but because the video was causing a lot of tensions here. Although it seems like it didnt do any good.

Every time a mod tried to kill a conversation by deleting the posts without taking further action all it does is make the subject of the deletions feel persecuted, making tensions worse.

Please dont do it again.

[Legs]

The entire intent of posting the video was an example of how the german authorities (and anti-fa) are raiding people for "hate speech" on the internet; A man posts a provocative picture around on facebook: gets included in a raid of 60 people by the police and a mob defaces his home, then he explains his situation to interviewers a few days later. Simultaniously I wanted to show how the amount of zeal the german police when persuing these people is in stark contrast with the reluctance the german police have exhibited when responding to extremism of their immigrant population over the last two years.

Wow.
What mistreatment?
Is it where he was punched , well pushed , well they restrained me when I tried to get past them into the property the police were conducting a search of, well I don't know really because I was drunk but I had sore ribs when I woke up in the morning?
Is that the mistreatment you are on about?
He certainly had difficulty getting his story straight didn't he.


Consider this....In other jurisdictions his actions during the search would have probably resulted in a belt round the head with a baton and then a charge of obstruction and assault.

The video contains no holocaust denial inside it, it has one man spend 5 seconds recomending the viewer listen to a speech by a holocaust denier, that only earns confusion from the interviewers and likely the listeners. You have to dig deep and reference other materiel to find any inflammatory material in it, and likely noone here would have noticed if legs wasnt looking for any excuse to dismiss this man's testimony and excuse his mistreatment, an excuse I am depressed to see some of the rest of you jump on.

Would you not consider that perhaps some people are familiar with neo nazi ideology and the symbolism they use and that these things are very easy to spot.

[Hooahguy]

Every time a mod tried to kill a conversation by deleting the posts without taking further action all it does is make the subject of the deletions feel persecuted, making tensions worse.

Please dont do it again.

I will take that under advisement.

[Husar]

Do the servers fall under german jurisdiction now?

The rules say any law, they don't mention a specific country, I chose my words very wisely as you can see.

The main intent of posting the video was an example of how the german authorities (and anti-fa) are raiding people for "hate speech" on the internet; A man posts a provocative picture around on facebook: gets included in a raid of 60 people by the police and a mob defaces his home, then he explains his situation to interviewers a few days later. Simultaniously I wanted to show how the amount of zeal the german police when persuing these people is in stark contrast with the reluctance the german police have exhibited when responding to extremism of their immigrant population over the last two years.

The Sauerland-Gruppe and the NSU would beg to differ.

The video contains no holocaust denial inside it, it has one man spend 5 seconds recomending the viewer listen to a speech by a holocaust denier, that only earns confusion from the interviewers and likely the listeners. You have to dig deep and reference other materiel to find any inflammatory material in it, and likely noone here would have noticed if legs wasnt looking for any excuse to dismiss this man's testimony and excuse his mistreatment, an excuse I am depressed to see some of the rest of you jump on.

I find any material from Sauron of Akkad inflammatory, don't insult my sensibilities.
I also dismissed the video as that of a Nazi whiner long before Legs commented on it, I'm not jumping onto anything here, you're twisting the events now. It is not an excuse, the video is a very one-sided account based on the testimony of a person of highly questionable moral standards...
For someone who always pretends to care about proof you jump onto the trust-train very fast, apparently without questioning his motives.

Every time a mod tried to kill a conversation by deleting the posts without taking further action all it does is make the subject of the deletions feel persecuted, making tensions worse.

Please dont do it again.

Every time? You need to prove that first before I believe it.

[Legs]

Edit, and there is no reason to kick Greyblades at all, I watched the video he posted. It wasn't there.

Incredible.
It has already been established without any shadow of doubt that you didn't watch the video which you are trying to defend.

[Fragony]

Incredible.
It has already been established without any shadow of doubt that you didn't watch the video which you are trying to defend.

I am not efending the video, I don't like nazi's so why would I, I'm defending Greyblades against your insinuations. Yes I saw the video. Maybe there is a longer version like Hussie suggested, would make sense, but that's not what I saw.

[Legs]

I am not efending the video, I don't like nazi's so why would I, I'm defending Greyblades against your insinuations. Yes I saw the video. Maybe there is a longer version like Hussie suggested, would make sense, but that's not what I saw.

There was only one video, why are you insisting that you somehow managed to watch a video that was different to the only one posted?
Why persist with making claims that have already been shown to be untrue.

As for insinuations against greyblades, what insinuations are you on about?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Last time we discussed Holocaust Denial was here when the backroom had a neo-nazi paying a visit. The topic was pretty much put to rest. If you really want to talk about Holocaust Denial, there are websites on the internet that cater for that type of thing on the DarkNet.

As mentioned by Seamus, there are countries where denial is also illegal.

Anyway, this is an immigration topic, so please return to that.

Just checked. "Holocaust denial" is criminal in Belgium (where I believe our servers reside), prosecutable as hate speech/incitement to hatred in Germany, France & the Netherlands. Since this covers all of the spots I believe to be where are server(s) are, our moderators are handling this quite appropriately for the organization.

So....

I do not believe the problem is one of immigration so much as of assimilation. Cultures can and do change -- a degree of change is healthy -- but can only absorb so much change in any one stretch. The USA strictly curtailed immigration in 1924 following the huge wave of immigrants (many from areas bordering the Med or in Eastern Europe) so as to allow for effective assimilation.

May not have been an ideal system, but it does speak to the key issues of concern.

[Legs]

Just checked. "Holocaust denial" is criminal in Belgium (where I believe our servers reside), prosecutable as hate speech/incitement to hatred in Germany, France & the Netherlands. Since this covers all of the spots I believe to be

I do not believe the problem is one of immigration so much as of assimilation. Cultures can and do change -- a degree of change is healthy -- but can only absorb so much change in any one stretch. The USA strictly curtailed immigration in 1924 following the huge wave of immigrants (many from areas bordering the Med or in Eastern Europe) so as to allow for effective assimilation.

May not have been an ideal system, but it does speak to the key issues of concern.

As was mentioned earlier , apart from a very few limited jurisdictions these laws cover"crrimes against humanity" not "holocaust denial"
Which is seemingly an arbituary measure.

So....

I do not believe the problem is one of immigration so much as of assimilation.

Honestly Seamus, stop please stop, how can you say that? From what I gathered of your writing, that episode about assimilation sounds exactly like the NSDAB electoral programe, not at all suggesting that these are views you hold but one must be careful with the language one uses.
Kind reguards, Legs

[Husar]

As was mentioned earlier , apart from a very few limited jurisdictions these laws cover"crrimes against humanity" not "holocaust denial"
Which is seemingly an arbituary measure.

I think wikipedia disagrees:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_a...denial#Belgium

Article 1 Whoever, in the circumstances given in article 444 of the Penal Code denies, grossly minimises, attempts to justify, or approves the genocide committed by the German National Socialist Regime during the Second World War shall be punished by a prison sentence of eight days to one year, and by a fine of twenty six francs to five thousand francs.

Honestly Seamus, stop please stop, how can you say that? From what I gathered of your writing, that episode about assimilation sounds exactly like the NSDAB electoral programe, not at all suggesting that these are views you hold but one must be careful with the language one uses.
Kind reguards, Legs

I don't quite see how or why. He basically just said that immigrants need to assimilate, at least to a certain extent, to prevent problems.
I can see how that makes sense unless one believes in the kind of multiculturalism where everyone should keep their culture and not adapt to anything. Though I'm not sure how the latter is supposed to work if a foreign culture demands people to do things that the host culture deems illegal and repulsive, e.g. human sacrifices.

[HopAlongBunny]

Call it "fear of our shadow"
At least here in the America's us "come from aways" stole the land, changed the customs and ruined the economy; no one wants to see that happen

[Greyblades]

What mistreatment?

He was raided by the police over nothing worse than ascribing to an ideology the state deems dengerous, if it had been a certain other ideology I'd dare say we'd never hear the end of it.

Would you not consider that perhaps some people are familiar with neo nazi ideology and the symbolism they use and that these things are very easy to spot.

I would consider anyone who could easily spot them wouldnt need to be protected from wrong-think.

The Sauerland-Gruppe and the NSU would beg to differ.

The taharrush gangs of cologne would not.

I find any material from Sauron of Akkad inflammatory, don't insult my sensibilities.
I also dismissed the video as that of a Nazi whiner long before Legs commented on it, I'm not jumping onto anything here, you're twisting the events now. It is not an excuse, the video is a very one-sided account based on the testimony of a person of highly questionable moral standards...

Believe it or not, I wasnt actually taking about you.

For someone who always pretends to care about proof you jump onto the trust-train very fast, apparently without questioning his motives.

Which is why I included a news article to confirm that the event actually happened.

Every time? You need to prove that first before I believe it.

That would be because a) I wasnt talking to you and b) I thought you allready knew. You did notice the amount of salt produced whenever warman, total_relism, truth1337 legs and all the various short lived vistors to the backroom got on the wrong side of the mods but didnt earn a full suspension?

Just checked. "Holocaust denial" is criminal in Belgium (where I believe our servers reside), prosecutable as hate speech/incitement to hatred in Germany, France & the Netherlands. Since this covers all of the spots I believe to be where are server(s) are, our moderators are handling this quite appropriately for the organization.

Assuming that's the real reason, I'm fine with that, covering the legal bases is a lot easier to accept.

[Husar]

The taharrush gangs of cologne would not.

Terrible example because that was completely unexpected in terms of size and organization, it's a bit like saying the japanese should have built Hiroshima with nuclear bomb defense structures in mind.
The German police prevented 9 or more islamic terrorist attacks since 9/11, don't tell me they're ignoring problems.
They've also been talking about other problems but people tend to ignore that in favor of budget cuts until something actually happens.
Don't tell me it's much different elsewhere or with other issue because I sort of have a list...

Which is why I included a news article to confirm that the event actually happened.

But news articles don't prove anything, we need primary sources before we can believe it.
The guy himself played the victim in the video but what else would he do? Talk about all the terrible things he did to deserve that?
I'm not even questioning that he was raided, I was saying he probably deserved it like people of your conviction thought that Saddam Hussein deserved to get shot without a trial.
The floodgates of surveillance were opened due to fear of terrorism and now people cry about the slipperyness of the slope.
I'm merely enjoying the moment and the fact he is a nazi makes it even more enjoyable.
You know, when people want freedom of speech to talk about forms of government that they praise and the ideas of which run completeley counter to freedom of speech, I cry tears of happiness when they get arrested.

That would be because a) I wasnt talking to you and b) I thought you allready knew. You did notice the amount of salt produced whenever warman, total_relism, truth1337 legs and all the various short lived vistors to the backroom got on the wrong side of the mods but didnt earn a full suspension?

I'm not familiar with salt production in fora, so I'm not entirely sure what you're saying.
My point was that you said "every time...", whereas "every time a very confrontational poster....", for example, might be more accurate.
Fragony for example seems to be immune to oversalturation.

[Legs]

He was raided by the police over nothing worse than ascribing to an ideology the state deems dengerous, if it had been a certain other ideology I'd dare say we'd never hear the end of it.

He broke the law and was arrested for it, how is that mistreatment?
Did you notice Anjem Chouidray finally got properly busted, they had raided him again and again , finally they could prove that he was breaking the law.
Did you hear anyone complain about it? Did you hear lots of people express the thought "about bloody time"

I would consider anyone who could easily spot them wouldnt need to be protected from wrong-think.

Since you couldn't spot them at all does that mean you need protection?

[Fragony]

Talk abouf a poor example, nobody knew about nuclair bombs. Sexism in muslim culture and terrugha-mobs of amateur-gaenacogists acting like hyena's, encircling, striking, is wellknown though