Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 141

Thread: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

  1. #31

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/...an-interactive

    Rundown of the dramatic past week in Afghanistan.



    Any idea of Taliban losses throughout this offensive? I don't trust the government's estimates of course. To capture so much territory without a fight or with token resistance suggests negotiations behind the scenes with individual commanders and warlords, beyond a mere collapse of will.


    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    I'm 100% behind the withdrawal. I was against the intervention from the start as a waste of time and money.

    He has chosen to pretend that it wouldn't implode which of course it would. There's nothing there that resembles a state, just a group of thieves looting America's money.

    Again, to criticise over a few lies compared to his predecessors wasting vast amounts of lives and money there's no comparison.

    To be fair to Biden, IIRC he opposed Obama's surge and recommended more rapid withdrawal during his time as VP.

    My response to spmetla's post was brewing since before the news of the total surrender of the Afghan government arrived, so read it, once it's up, with even greater emphasis on the Biden's damaging lack of urgency in the withdrawal.

    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla View Post
    Biden does bear a lot of blame though, there's a reason that Mattis resigned over Trump's wanting to just leave Afghanistan and Syria full stop. Trump's 'peace deal' with the Taliban was a farce and Biden following through with it was stupid.
    Damned if you do or don't, in that US foreign policy credibility has been hobbled so already. Biden was already delaying Trump's timetable, and there were reasonable arguments in the early days that it would be instrumentally more useful for the new administration to be seen to carry through major decisions of its predecessor (in contrast to the behavior of that previous administration). But the strongest argument is that the situation had been unsalvageable from Day 1 for all sorts of reasons, had just been sliding through various new degrees of unsalvageable in the years since, and as the French learned even more painfully in 1954, there is no better goddamn peace deal around the proverbial corner when you can barely even afford to cut your losses and run.

    Again, bottom line (see upcoming reply), Biden had half a year to expedite the evacuation along the lines I recommend. Logistics was no issue, narrowsighted politics was. Just tell Republicans and the media to pound sand and do it. But American presidents have pretty much never prioritized just or forward-looking foreign policy over domestic pressures.

    But more important than presidents, spmetla: The entire "blob" (security-military policy complex) of the US and its government is a fuck-up. One of the reasons why Sanders seemed a promising candidate was his vow to reject so much bogus coming from the same people on foreign policy who have been disastrously wrong their entire careers, and yet maintain an iron grip on our foreign policy. We can't even stop to criticize an individual president for decisions that follow wholly from the broken logics of this irredeemable wagging tail.

    What are we going to do about that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Yglesias
    On Afghanistan, both Trump & Biden have been swimming against the main currents of opinion among military leaders (who want to avoid the conclusion that this is an embarrassing failure *on their part*) and a lot of reporters are very comfortable openly siding with the generals. They are also willfully not contextualizing questions like "how could the endgame have gotten this slipshod?" with the reality that the people charged with carrying out the Trump/Biden policy consistently opposed it and wanted the implementation to go badly.As recently as yesterday, they were still hoping that turning the Trump/Biden withdrawal policy into an embarrassing shitshow would successfully bully the White House into reversing course the way they squeezed Obama in 2009 and Trump in 2017.

    This was the map *before* the early-Trump escalation, and the Taliban *continued to gain ground* during the escalation years.
    [see tweet]

    Since Trump started moving to withdrawal they've been pretending withdrawall is the reason for Taliban advances. If the new president hadn’t been Obama’s VP it probably would’ve worked. They’d have told him “oh Trump messed this up, we just need a temporary surge of forces to push the Taliban back for a few years and get us a better bargaining position for a negotiated peace.” But because Biden was in the room where it happened in 2009-2016 he’d already seen this play out and ripped off the band-aid. It’s ugly and unfortunate, but I think better than the alternative course available.
    Who's going to punish the generals and security analysts for their crimes against America and Afghanistan, for knowingly promoting endless failing conflict like some Orwellian parody?

    Remember this story from 2019?
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...ial-documents/

    confidential trove of government documents obtained by The Washington Post reveals that senior U.S. officials failed to tell the truth about the war in Afghanistan throughout the 18-year campaign, making rosy pronouncements they knew to be false and hiding unmistakable evidence the war had become unwinnable.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 08-15-2021 at 21:01.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Members thankful for this post (2):



  2. #32
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Kona, Hawaii
    Posts
    2,985

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    Who's going to punish the generals and security analysts for their crimes against America and Afghanistan, for knowingly promoting endless failing conflict like some Orwellian parody?
    Sadly we only seem to punish Officers and politicians for sexual impropriety and blatant corruption. Incompetence and dishonesty are not punished by the institutions or the people that vote in the checks on the institutions

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
    -Abraham Lincoln


    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

  3. #33

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    Heartbreaking (2-minute) interview.
    https://twitter.com/saadmohseni/stat...75053050777607



    Even Nicholas Kristof avers:

    Time is running out for the US to give instant visas on the tarmac to at-risk Afghans, such as interpreters and women's rights advocates, get them on planes out of the country, and sort things out later. That's not optimal, but it's the right thing to do.

    Fun fact: The Communist Democratic Republic of Afghanistan outlasted the Soviet Union.

    "No one wants to be the last man to die delaying the inevitable."



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    When the rain comes pourin' down

    When the rain comes pourin' down, I'll be up and gone

    When the rain comes pourin' down

    I'm leavin' when the rain comes pourin' down


    I've got my bags stacked by the door

    Packed with my promises and yours

    Every forecast was true, this old romance is through

    I finally saw the light, so let it pour


    When the rain comes pourin' down

    When the rain comes pourin' down, I'll be up and gone

    When the rain comes pourin' down

    I'm a leavin' when the rain comes pourin' down


    I guess you're love has dried up like mine

    Tied to another place and time

    So let the pressure drop, this lyin's got to stop

    We done burned all the fruit that's cut the vine



    When the rain comes pourin' down

    When the rain comes pourin' down, I'll be up and gone

    When the rain comes pourin' down

    I'm a leavin' when the rain comes pourin' down


    (DITTY)


    Rain, rain, I'm goin' away

    and I'm not coming back another day

    So shine, shine, I'll leave all this behind

    I know there's got to be a better way



    When the rain comes pourin' down

    When the rain comes pourin' down, I'll be up and gone

    When the rain comes pourin' down

    I'm leavin' when the rain comes pourin' down
    Last edited by Montmorency; 08-16-2021 at 06:25.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  4. #34

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban



    Prologue:
    This is not a "collapse," it is a popular uprising against us led by an opponent with none of our resources.
    Preface: What I say about the proper scope and speed of evacuation and refugee programs for Afghanistan must be put in context of the fact that we probably couldn't physically extract such a number of persons without the managed consent of the Taliban, or the participation of Pakistani assets. You know, since there evidently wouldn't be anyone fighting behind the asylees' backs to secure their extraction, no matter the head start. Maybe it's still possible to have the Taliban peacefully expatriate those they want to be rid of and we need to take anyway - or maybe that's what we're currently working on; I dunno.


    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla View Post
    The failure to stand by those that worked hand in hand and shared danger like the many interpreters is truly embarrassing and deeply shameful to the US. Extracting all asylum seekers however would be overboard, we'd be pretty much having to transplant entire cities to the US.
    Most Afghan refugees don't have a strong preference for America as a destination - and regardless I would say we should take a million of them if need be. So at the very least we should have made preparations to support thousands of them in Turkey, Pakistan, Iran, and anywhere else, in abeyance. For the trillions we've spent on Afghanistan what's another ten billion on hundreds of thousands of lives and livelihoods? Of those who are interested in asylum in the US, every one of them deserves to have a safe space while they await a rapid and limited processing, which safe space could most directly manifest as a sojourn on American soil until the decision. The Biden administration is doing something like this to a very limited extent by allowing claims to be processed outside Afghanistan, IIRC, but physically transporting asylees to safety in the first case sounds best to me. Would it have sped the collapse of the central Afghan government in a rapid brain-and-heart drain? Yes, but at the rate we've observed the true collapse, it's hard to argue for big distinctions. The situation now will be even more destructive and disruptive beyond Afghan borders, unfinished as it is. Like I said, we should have been working furiously on the human aspect of withdrawal for years since, but even Biden had a little time to maneuver here as long as he was willing to commit the necessary resources and diplomacy, and tell the American media and Republicans to get bent.

    After 9/11 launching some cruise missiles at Al Queda bases in Afghanistan wasn't going to be acceptable to US domestic opinion. I think even in alternate universe with Al Gore in charge the US would have go to war with Al Queda and the Taliban.
    If we do alternate worlds, why not one where Gore reads the reports and averts 9/11, or where we negotiate with the Taliban to get results, or where we leave after a year, having accomplished the counterterrorist mission (whether or not bin Laden himself is neutralized)? A President can get away with a lot with 80% approval ratings. AS WE KNOW LOL

    The US was running on the 'high' of being the sole superpower, Russia was in a laughable state, China was hardly more than a regional threat, the US got to be the 'good guy' in Desert Storm and Yugoslavia. There's no way that the 9/11 attacks would not create a demand for a military response.
    Righteous anger is one thing, mindless bloodthirstiness with world-devastating results is a shameful other. It will never cease to horrify me how we had the whole neighborhood's sympathy over a baseball through the kitchen window and rode it to firebomb the nearby trailer park and threaten everyone else over it.



    In hindsight perhaps the war should have been essentially a 'great raid' in invade to oust Al Queda, team up with the Northern Alliance to overthrow the Taliban and then leave completely. The whole nation building part was started with as you demonstrated no real track record for it though instead of looking to Cuba and Haiti (why Cuba though?) I'd look to Somalia. US/UN failure there was the earliest indicator that western militaries and governments don't have the expertise and patience to fix a failed state.
    That example, along with Haiti, wasn't illustrating the aspect of military intervention against an enemy, but that of using military assets or aid to prop up the government we preferred. The US desperately needs to learn that being surrounded by richer, stronger, peer countries is better for its long-term interests than trying to exert violent imperial control with minimal intellectual and non-military social investment - even when those countries don't all share the American government's views on something. Democracy nationally and internationally have shared fates. Suicidal hypocrisy is one of the worst things about this country. Actually, correction: more like a murder-suicide pact. Lots of murder.

    The terrible example of Libya is probably what would have served US interests best in Afghanistan. Military action to get rid of what we consider bad or at least placate domestic opinion, then fund a rump government and hope it can secure its country. If it can't it's really no issue so long as the problem doesn't spill over the borders (the collapse of Mali under Tuareg invasion and then the use of Libya by people smugglers to Europe).

    The response to ISIS is a good example of what should probably have been done in Afghanistan, SOF elements working with local militias/militaries to fight the 'bad guys'. The Taliban were initially kicked out using the above method, sadly staying and trying to help is what hurt the most. A SOF fight which fights the 'bad guys' but doesn't really aggravate the local population can work and keeps the US from getting into nation building.
    Without expanding the scope of the conversation too much, rebuilding Libya, linked to the Mediterranean as it was, should have been vastly easier than Afghanistan, so long as one wasn't excessively bothered about the condition of the far interior. But we didnt try, to the point that thousands of migrants could bite Europe in the ass as a political problem. Imagine the EU and US spending $2 trillion on the Libyan economy itself: Misrata could look like Monte Carlo. The problem is that we're terrible at long-term commitment as groups and individuals and will happily suffer (or allow others to suffer) over long periods to avoid disrupting a terrible status quo.

    At no point did NATO Soldiers govern Afghanistan.
    Exactly. They couldn't have. What government Afghanistan did have, we dissolved by force, with little to replace it.

    It's worth pointing out that the one real case (AFAIK) of successful reconstruction under military governance or guardianship, US-occupied Germany and Japan, featured at bottom a security environment where all sources of instability exclusive of the occupation itself had been stamped out already. When you look at Haiti under Clinton through Obama, for example, it's not exactly a warzone but a society so impoverished and insecure, with few national constituencies and bases of power, that a foreign military presence can at best kick the can down the road. I can't find the article now, but it was pointed out that Haiti was only worse off on numerous indicators following US and UN missions there, and that this shows the general concept true of external armed forces being unconducive to lasting stabilization. Foreign soldiers can freeze a collapse or a conflict in the short term, perhaps, but they contribute nothing to actually developing the economy or the civil society by their mere presence. You need much more for that... Meanwhile, and this is the critical part, when you have those foreign soldiers propping up some weak and unpopular government, it actually weakens its ability to build legitimacy and exert its sovereignty over the jurisdiction, sort of like how free clothing and foodstuffs in earlier phases of international assistance to struggling African countries happened to impair the health of domestic textiles and agricultural industries - because they were being crowded out.

    On the Right, between 1980-2016 especially, we often heard warnings that government investment would crowd out the private sector in a vicious cycle of economic stagnation (military Keynesianism exempted), but this theory may have always held more true on the level of interactions between states and societies.

    The principle arguably even applies to the ANA, who I hear were used as auxiliaries to the US mission to the end, equipped to fight a conventional and technological war without the experience or technology to do it alone. Meaning in practice the ANA was never put in a position to fight its real-world enemies unassisted.

    Thus I repeat: Soldiers can't build governments, not by nor with gunpoint. Or in another phrasing, 'Infantry take and hold ground, not develop it.'

    I want the US to involve itself in nationbuilding at home and abroad. The military just doesn't have much role in that. Something along the lines of this old talk (some of which hasn't aged well), which to simplify recommends something like a Department of War and a Department of Everything Else (Nationbuilding, or Peace according to Marianne Williamson). Battle space vs. transition space vs. peace space in his words: "You can't ask the same 19-year old to do it day in and day out."

    Well intentioned hard power with ignoble record whenever it is we throw in the towel, yes. The military is retooling for the peer to peer threats that are China and Russia and eager to forget all about counter insurgency again. SOF and the SFABs will be the tools of choice instead of military occupation to create stability.
    US soft power however is at least being used intentially again, hated how Trump loved the idea of hard power yet decried wars and undermined all the government elements that are used for soft power.
    From what little I know of US diplomacy with the Taliban in the immediate aftermath of the attacks, it was progressing well on core objectives of mitigating the Taliban's endorsement of international terrorism, until Bush and the New American Century neocons decided to take their American-boot-up-the-ass show on the road. Soft power is just everything besides hard power, itself almost exclusively military force, despite frequent framing that treats soft power as but the domain of the The Simpsons and Will Smith and Elton John. What was preventing us from taking Iran as a partner in 2001? There's a lot of ruin in a nation, and the US retains - despite everything - a fair amount of power to constrain the export, diffusion, and re-import of corruption, state failure, and economic exploitation. In 2001 meanwhile the US was unmatched in relative power anywhere and anytime. How many licks does it take to get to the ruin of a nation?

    The US security establishment has never understood that friendly-but-transactional relations with democratic peer nations, and even illiberal troublemakers, is worth uncountably more than a constellation of temporarily-leashed autocratic commodity/poverty farms. It's part of what's been undermining us domestically and abroad since the end of the Victorian era. Without indulging in what-ifs, it's plain to see that on the day of the 9/11 attacks, we had ample opportunity and approbation to treat the matter as an international criminal conspiracy and to work to bring the whole Middle East into a healthier state of being. The 2000 election and the entire response to 9/11 are some of the very greatest blunders, hinges, in all of history, and many people won't survive them ongoing. That's worth a lot of disappointment.

    A decent starting point would be to faithfully orient national strategy around the literal text of the Weinberger Doctrine.

    The United States should not commit forces to combat unless the vital national interests of the United States or its allies are involved.
    U.S. troops should only be committed wholeheartedly and with the clear intention of winning. Otherwise, troops should not be committed.
    U.S. combat troops should be committed only with clearly defined political and military objectives and with the capacity to accomplish those objectives.
    The relationship between the objectives and the size and composition of the forces committed should be continually reassessed and adjusted if necessary.
    U.S. troops should not be committed to battle without a "reasonable assurance" of the support of U.S. public opinion and Congress.
    The commitment of U.S. troops should be considered only as a last resort.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 08-16-2021 at 07:29.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Members thankful for this post (2):



  5. #35
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Kona, Hawaii
    Posts
    2,985

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    From what little I know of US diplomacy with the Taliban in the immediate aftermath of the attacks, it was progressing well on core objectives of mitigating the Taliban's endorsement of international terrorism, until Bush and the New American Century neocons decided to take their American-boot-up-the-ass show on the road.
    The major lynch-pin for the invasion of Afghanistan was that the Taliban refused to evict Al Queda and Bin Laden based on the Pashtun Wali concept of protecting their 'guests' no matter who comes knocking on the door. The operations in the Tora Bora Mtns almost got Bin Laden but he escaped over into Pakistan and for whatever reason the Bush Admin didn't put the pressure needed on Pakistan to pursue him. In hindsight we gave them an ultimatum much like Austro-Hungary did to to Serbia before WWI.

    Soft power is just everything besides hard power, itself almost exclusively military force, despite frequent framing that treats soft power as but the domain of the The Simpsons and Will Smith and Elton John.
    I understand what soft power is, in the government the major elements of power that can be exerted are DIME or diplomatic, information, military, and economic. I highly highly doubt soft power would have coughed up Bin Laden, unfortunately some criminal elements can only be eliminated with a combination of soft and hard power though the ramped up drone strikes etc.. done from Bush/Obama/Trump onward have certainly go overboard on the hard power part primarily because there are so many ungoverned regions in which these groups base themselves.

    What was preventing us from taking Iran as a partner in 2001? There's a lot of ruin in a nation, and the US retains - despite everything - a fair amount of power to constrain the export, diffusion, and re-import of corruption, state failure, and economic exploitation. In 2001 meanwhile the US was unmatched in relative power anywhere and anytime. How many licks does it take to get to the ruin of a nation?
    Nothing was preventing us from partnering Iran in 2001 besides the Bush administrations pig headedness. After the example of the gulf war a a decade earlier and toppling the Taliban in Iran's backdoor the Iranians very rightly feared they were next. If I recall correctly from what I read in the "Persian Puzzle" ten years ago the Iranians pretty much offered us everything we'd been asking for to reestablish relations and deescalate tensions between us and they were completed rebuffed by Bush Jr and Co which then proceeded to invade Iraq.

    The year 2001 certainly was filled with potential and it's hard to believe twenty years later how those key decisions made have led us to the unfortunate position now.

    The United States should not commit forces to combat unless the vital national interests of the United States or its allies are involved.
    U.S. troops should only be committed wholeheartedly and with the clear intention of winning. Otherwise, troops should not be committed.
    U.S. combat troops should be committed only with clearly defined political and military objectives and with the capacity to accomplish those objectives.
    The relationship between the objectives and the size and composition of the forces committed should be continually reassessed and adjusted if necessary.
    U.S. troops should not be committed to battle without a "reasonable assurance" of the support of U.S. public opinion and Congress.
    The commitment of U.S. troops should be considered only as a last resort.
    I agree with most of the ideas of the Weinberger Doctrine but unfortunately it comes from an era with slightly clearer lines than now, there's a lot of what ifs and gray area that it doesn't address.
    To start, I don't think anyone ever commits US troops without the intent of winning, but ignorance, overconfidence and so on make initial assessments with the 'fog of war' difficult. I would agree on the well defined military objectives that are tied to a political objective. That's generally what's been undertaken, the problem is the short sighted look beyond the military solution. In Iraq, the military pretty much did what it was asked, defeat Saddam Hussein's army, there wasn't a plan to occupy the country and provide security for ten years. The military plan seemed to assume that there'd be some sort of peace deal and then they go home, the Bush Admin forgot to consider that when engaging in regime change there's no one left with the legitimacy to make peace with.

    The reassessment of the size forces is certainly one of the most scrutinized things that actually does happen which is what led to the deluge of hiring military contractors so that basic things like base security can be accomplished without having ot bring in a few hundred more troops that add to the much scrutinized troop numbers.

    The last two are a bit difficult for the gray area aspect, special operations, drone strikes, cyber warfare etc... are largely done without vetting public opinion and with only a few key members of congress/senate notified. Sending regular formations of Soldiers somewhere certainly gets public debate.
    The other problematic aspects are we have a lot of treaty allies now and as the US is the keep over the current world order versus the 'revisionist' powers of Russia and China this involves a lot of support for countries that aren't clear allies but have some tacit US agreements to maintain their territorial sovereignty (for example Ukraine, Taiwan). The willingness to use force is sadly as important as the ability to use it which is why the pendalum swing from pacifism/appeasement to militarism/hegemony are so dangerous to ourselves and the world. Putin may be an SOB but at least his allies know where he stands, same with the PRC when it comes to their interests.

    Sending the navy to deter pirate attacks or escort vessels in a dangerous area can lead to conflict, routine air patrols and training can lead to incidents like the Hainan island crash.

    The 2000 election and the entire response to 9/11 are some of the very greatest blunders, hinges, in all of history, and many people won't survive them ongoing. That's worth a lot of disappointment.
    Couldn't agree more, as a patriotic guy seeing a generation of our effort, revenue, and standing wasted is incredibly disappointing.

    To get back on topic though, talking with friends and chatting on facebook and other social media today, there's certainly a lot of soul searching going on today by Afghan veterans. I am and remain ashamed of our hurried and unplanned departure, while every administration has led up to this point I still lay may blame for the immediate debacle on the Trump for dealing with the Taliban that undermined the little legitimacy left for the actual Afghan government and then with Biden for doing this stupid hurried pullout. Call it ripping the bandaid off, sure, but it didn't have to be with leaving bases in the middle of the night without letting the ANA know, without a plan to help the translators that worked with us, without a pledge of support to the Afghan government and people.

    I truly feel terrible for the Afghans that wanted a modern life that are now stuck there, I can only hope that I'm as wrong about the Taliban's intentions on ruling as I was about the ANA willingness to fight. Having my dad talk to me about where he was when Saigon fell and then see that imagine of a CH-47 evacuating the US Embassy in Kabul to match the parallel perfectly. To think this year started out with an attempted coup by the sitting president and then has led to this by my preferred "America is Back" candidate is depressing.

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
    -Abraham Lincoln


    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

    Members thankful for this post (4):



  6. #36

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban



    Last edited by Shaka_Khan; 08-17-2021 at 01:12.

  7. #37

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    Pro-Taliban Y'all-Qaida meme.


    Biden speech on Afghanistan today. Over-the-horizon counterterrorism. The Afghan government and military are contemptible and unsalvageable. Don't involve American troops in this business. New information: Ghani government asked Biden admin to slow down evacuation to avoid precipitating panic.


    Tragic 2005 story on a National Guardsman pointlessly killed in Iraq due to a lack of training and equipment. Captures the essence of the whole broader conflict.

    More stories on how the ANA was totally overmatched, undertrained for their independent mission, undersupplied (by massive corruption and bad logistics), in pay arrears forever, and basically bribed by the Taliban Mongol-style into surrender. This is, by the way, another component of incredible mission failure by the US, since propping up the ANA was exactly the domain of the American military and state department to a T. ANA failure is a systemic failure by the American military and government, not a political failure. But it makes more sense if you interpret the continued intervention as being more about lining the pockets of military-industrial corporations, security contractors, and other interested actors on the take, rather than achieving a concrete military or strategic outcome. The common Afghan soldier, especially the serious ones, has been betrayed many times over. But we're disturbingly good at facilitating the betrayal of allied fighters once we have no use for them...
    https://observers.france24.com/en/20...diers-army-eat
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...or-the-taliban
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...lapse-taliban/
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/afghani...an-11628958253
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/13/w...-collapse.html

    This story reviews the point directly, reiterating the old leaked internal documents from State and Defense - that the US military was never honestly preparing the ANA for anything useful, knew about it, and lied about it, because the security establishment believes that any level of deceit towards the American public and political class is justified in the pursuit of it's harebrained internal consensuses. Every discrete actor or group here, at every level of American government and society from President to the voting public, messed up continuously. This is what people talk about when they say it feels shameful to be an American. How is one to be proud of 'with great power comes great failure, better luck next time'?

    In the summer of 2011, Army Lt. Gen. William Caldwell IV made a round of public appearances to boast that he had finally solved a problem that had kept U.S. troops bogged down in Afghanistan for a decade. Under his watch, he asserted, U.S. military advisers and trainers had transformed the ragtag Afghan army and police into a professional fighting force that could defend the country and keep the Taliban at bay... In fact, according to documents obtained for the forthcoming Washington Post book“The Afghanistan Papers: A Secret History of the War,” U.S. military officials privately harbored fundamental doubts for the duration of the war that the Afghan security forces could ever become competent or shed their dependency on U.S. money and firepower. “Thinking we could build the military that fast and that well was insane,” an unnamed former U.S. official told government interviewers in 2016.

    Senior U.S. officials said the Pentagon fell victim to the conceit that it could build from scratch an enormous Afghan army and police force with 350,000 personnel that was modeled on the centralized command structures and complex bureaucracy of the Defense Department. Though it was obvious from the beginning that the Afghans were struggling to make the U.S.-designed system work, the Pentagon kept throwing money at the problem and assigning new generals to find a solution.
    Twitter thread pointing out that Trump's Winter 2020 deal ending sanctions, limiting air strikes (?), exchanging 5000 Taliban prisoners for 1000, had the immediate effect of permanently undermining ANA readiness and set the stage for the mass distributed surrender of ANA forces this summer (it wasn't just hashed out in a few weeks, it was a long time down the pike).


    Reminder of Coalition war crimes in Afghanistan, including calculated mass execution of civilians and their posthumous addition to official "kill lists" (Joint Priority Effects List).


    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla View Post
    The major lynch-pin for the invasion of Afghanistan was that the Taliban refused to evict Al Queda and Bin Laden based on the Pashtun Wali concept of protecting their 'guests' no matter who comes knocking on the door. The operations in the Tora Bora Mtns almost got Bin Laden but he escaped over into Pakistan and for whatever reason the Bush Admin didn't put the pressure needed on Pakistan to pursue him. In hindsight we gave them an ultimatum much like Austro-Hungary did to to Serbia before WWI.
    I wasn't around to follow the events in realtime, so my awareness is limited to items such as this.

    President George Bush rejected as "non-negotiable" an offer by the Taliban to discuss turning over Osama bin Laden if the United States ended the bombing in Afghanistan.

    Returning to the White House after a weekend at Camp David, the president said the bombing would not stop, unless the ruling Taliban "turn [bin Laden] over, turn his cohorts over, turn any hostages they hold over." He added, "There's no need to discuss innocence or guilt. We know he's guilty". In Jalalabad, deputy prime minister Haji Abdul Kabir - the third most powerful figure in the ruling Taliban regime - told reporters that the Taliban would require evidence that Bin Laden was behind the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US, but added: "we would be ready to hand him over to a third country".
    Speaking of which, fill me in: did George Bush ever specify that neutralizing bin Laden was a primary goal of the "War on Terror," or was it all just a pretext for launching the crusade against the Axis of Evil, with Afghanistan being a mere roadstop on the way to manufacturing consent for the conquest of Iraq that Bush and co had explicitly campaigned on since before the election?

    The President wanted a plan that featured the rapid use of military force and the insertion of troops on the ground as soon as possible. It should be noted here that some Defense officials believed that the terrorists likely had the help of a state sponsor and that Saddam Hussein’s Iraq was the most likely suspect.9

    The issue of simultaneously attacking Iraq was brought up at Camp David by Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, but the suggestion had little support among the National Security Council (NSC) principals and was sidelined by the President. The timing was not fortuitous. However, on September 26, President Bush asked Rumsfeld in private to “look at the shape of our plans on Iraq” and asked for “creative” options.10 In any event, U.S. Central Command (USCENTCOM) planning for a potential war in Iraq would begin in earnest in November 2001 before the conclusion of the initial fighting in Afghanistan.11
    In terms of Value Over Replacement, it's plainly been historicist bias not to rank Bush and Trump as among the three worst presidents in our history. These contemporary bottom threes are mostly defensible, but seeing Bush moved out of the bottom 10 is an outrageous revision.

    But this is also tangential to what I was getting at, which is that


    I understand what soft power is, in the government the major elements of power that can be exerted are DIME or diplomatic, information, military, and economic. I highly highly doubt soft power would have coughed up Bin Laden, unfortunately some criminal elements can only be eliminated with a combination of soft and hard power though the ramped up drone strikes etc.. done from Bush/Obama/Trump onward have certainly go overboard on the hard power part primarily because there are so many ungoverned regions in which these groups base themselves.
    What I mean is, kinetic measures against OBL himself were always going to be more about revenge than degrading credible opposition capabilities (noting that a clean operation eliminating him with limited geopolitical collateral would have bothered very few people). Whereas preventing the use of Afghanistan as a staging and training ground for transnational networks into the future was, theoretically and intellectually, the highest objective behind the invasion. Before 2001 the human rights picture in Afghanistan or the Taliban's legitimacy was a niche activist interest. My point therefore is that following the attacks I suspect our subkinetic array of sticks and carrots was sufficient to bend the Taliban towards our purposes, cheaply if incrementally improving its security and human rights landscape.

    Recalling the debates around Syria and Ukraine, I continue to lament that right-wing Trotskyism,

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    he neoconservatives who went through the Trotskyist and socialist movements came to see foreign policy as a crusade, the goal of which was first global socialism, then social democracy, and finally democratic capitalism. They never saw foreign policy in terms of national interest or balance of power. Neoconser vatism was a kind of inverted Trotskyism, which sought to "export democracy," in Muravchik's words, in the same way that Trotsky originally envisaged exporting socialism. It saw its adversaries on the left as members or representatives of a public sector-based new class. The neoconservatives also got their conception of intellectual and political work from their socialist past. They did not draw the kind of rigid distinction between theory and practice that many academics and politicians do. Instead they saw theory as a form of political combat and politics as an endeavor that should be informed by theory. They saw themselves as a cadre in a cause rather than as strictly independent intellectuals. And they were willing to use theory as a partisan weapon.


    like most things Right, seems to retain elite-tier clout no matter the results, yet imagining a hard-left American administration trying to pick up where the Soviets left off in a proper "liberatory" war of choice is farcical: The governing party would suffer a historic landslide defeat at the nearest opportunity like few moments in our history have seen - regardless of how well or poorly operationalized the adventure may have been.

    I truly feel terrible for the Afghans that wanted a modern life that are now stuck there, I can only hope that I'm as wrong about the Taliban's intentions on ruling as I was about the ANA willingness to fight. Having my dad talk to me about where he was when Saigon fell and then see that imagine of a CH-47 evacuating the US Embassy in Kabul to match the parallel perfectly. To think this year started out with an attempted coup by the sitting president and then has led to this by my preferred "America is Back" candidate is depressing.
    Biden's brand was optimism, decency, and good feelings, just like Obama's was unity and prosperity through cerebral dealmaking, and Trump's was getting the right sort of people back in power again. These brands reflect/arise from both their political fortunes and their underlying personalities. Biden was never going to go turbo-Carter and tell the sane part of the American - or Afghan - public to plan for the rest of their lives on the Rollercoaster to Hell. (Though his address linked at the top of the post is fairly sober and forthright.)

    Tangential note: Even with half a million troops in Afghanistan on rotation, defeating the Taliban would arguably be out of reach without somehow leashing the Pakistani government. And even then, the Saudi and Iranian and Russian and Chinese governments...
    And to think we had their diplomatic support/approval for many potential courses of action in late 2001... It serves one well to remember that the old adage isn't "Swing that big stick all about like you're cosplaying Leatherface."


    Last edited by Montmorency; 08-17-2021 at 07:13.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  8. #38
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,483

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    There were clear winners during 20 years of war in Afghanistan:

    https://theintercept.com/2021/08/16/...efense-stocks/

    If you purchased $10,000 of stock evenly divided among America’s top five defense contractors on September 18, 2001 — the day President George W. Bush signed the Authorization for Use of Military Force in response to the 9/11 terrorist attacks — and faithfully reinvested all dividends, it would now be worth $97,295. This is a far greater return than was available in the overall stock market over the same period. $10,000 invested in an S&P 500 index fund on September 18, 2001, would now be worth $61,613. That is, defense stocks outperformed the stock market overall by 58 percent during the Afghanistan War.
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 08-18-2021 at 01:13.
    High Plains Drifter

  9. #39

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    What the...

    https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gf...ap_Topline.pdf





    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    There were clear winners during 20 years of war in Afghanistan:
    Pakistan and the United States Have Betrayed the Afghan People

    Although these numbers are staggering, much of U.S. investment did not stay in Afghanistan. Because of heavy reliance on a complex ecosystem of defense contractors, Washington banditry, and aid contractors, between 80 and 90 percent of outlays actually returned to the U.S. economy. Of the 10 to 20 percent of the contracts that remained in the country, the United States rarely cared about the efficacy of the initiative. Although corruption is rife in Afghanistan, the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction repeatedly identifies bewildering corruption by U.S. firms and individuals working in Afghanistan.

    In many cases, U.S. firms even defrauded Afghans. In 2010, one military official with the International Security Assistance Force explained to New York Times journalist Carlotta Gall that “without being too dramatic, American contractors are contributing to fueling the insurgency.” As it neglected to tackle Pakistan and tried to do security on the cheap, Washington also strongarmed the Afghan government it into so-called “peace talks” with the Taliban. More than anyone, the Afghan government understood the Taliban and their Pakistani handlers could not be trusted to honor their commitments, such as they were.
    BITCH

    I said

    between 80 and 90 percent of outlays actually returned to the U.S. economy.
    Stop exporting corruption!

    The spectacle of the peace talks was important in Washington, which hoped to create a fiction of power transition to cover the process of a negotiated U.S. defeat. There was genuinely nothing to discuss: The Afghan government was committed to constitutional rule of law—including elections, howsoever problematic—while the Afghan Taliban were committed to overturning the constitution and opposed elections as non-Islamic. The Taliban used the spectacle of the peace process as a recuperative retreat to revivify and emplace their forces while stashing weapons as they awaited U.S. withdrawal.
    Bitch
    Last edited by Montmorency; 08-18-2021 at 02:42.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  10. #40

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban






    It feels strange that this is being discussed as history. There are adults who were born after 9/11 now...

    Last edited by Shaka_Khan; 08-18-2021 at 16:17.

  11. #41
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Kona, Hawaii
    Posts
    2,985

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    I wouldn't say that the US ignored Pakistan's funding, it's more that we were logistically stuck working with either them or the Russians and CIS states. Whenever we put pressure on Pakistan suddenly our supplies that were being moved through Pakistan began being attacked by 'militants' and Pakistan cannot and does not want to take control of the Northwest Frontier Province which is semi-autonomous and largely the support zone for the Taliban.
    The US sold Pakistan equipment to do counter-terrorism and most of that ended up just shoring up their frontier with India.

    There was a window of opportunity to put pressure on Pakistan in 2001-2003 but once we invaded Iraq it was clear we had no leverage to deal with Pakistan.

    As for US incompetence in contracting, well that's a given. Sheer corruption and mismanagement all the way up and down though that stems largely from a Defense industry that up until two years ago has never even attempted being audited. Contracting mismanagement, pricing markups by suppliers and so on are the norm even within the US.

    Read the below report on the burnpits at FOB Salerno. The US contracted to build incinerators to replace the burn pits and then never used them. FYI it is a case study in the Army's ILE for mid level officers in trying to rectify the Army's mismanagement in contract control by teaching the responsibilities for it. Bear in mind that military Officers generally don't have a business background so when they are suddenly in charge of checking work quality and contracts for compliance they aren't too good at it which is compounded by rotating troops out every nine months.

    https://docs.house.gov/meetings/AS/A...J-20131029.pdf
    EDIT: No the link to the actual inspection, without the DoD certs on your PC you can't view the original even though unclassified. Here's a report SIGAR did for congress that highlights many of the key points below.


    As for the polling data, most Americans have been completely ignorant about the war in Afghanistan for the last 20years. Talking with friends that are suddenly outraged at the quick pullout they seem to have the impression that US Soldiers were in the 'trenches' up until a few weeks ago and then suddenly left when in actuality the ANA has been in the lead for fighting the Taliban for the past five years, US/NATO commitments were really in air power, training, and advising not so much fighting anymore. US casualties have only been in the dozens per year the last few years and hasn't had a combat KIA in years either.

    The spectacle of the peace talks was important in Washington, which hoped to create a fiction of power transition to cover the process of a negotiated U.S. defeat. There was genuinely nothing to discuss: The Afghan government was committed to constitutional rule of law—including elections, howsoever problematic—while the Afghan Taliban were committed to overturning the constitution and opposed elections as non-Islamic. The Taliban used the spectacle of the peace process as a recuperative retreat to revivify and emplace their forces while stashing weapons as they awaited U.S. withdrawal.
    This is why I still lay blame on Trump too for even negotiating with the Taliban, it undermined the Afghan government and legitimized the Taliban. Any power sharing should have been based around having the Taliban join the political process through elections and perhaps greater autonomy for the provinces/districts.

    Meanwhile Ashraf Ghani has fled to the UAE and the first Vice President of Afghanistan, Amrullah Saleh has vowed to keep fighting the Taliban and has fled to the Panshir valley to continue the resistance. This together with the protests in Jalalabad that in which three people were killed by the Taliban and the rumors of arrests in Herat and Kandahar make the situation tenuous for all Afghans to include the Taliban. Transitioning from resistance to rule is always dangerous and difficult, most conquerors make poor rulers and the Talibans deal with the devil that is narco-terrorism will be difficult to break.
    https://www.thehindu.com/news/intern...le35956937.ece
    Afghanistan's defiant vice president Amrullah Saleh said on August 17 he is “the legitimate caretaker President” after President Ashraf Ghani fled the country.

    “Clarity: As per d constitution of Afg, in absence, escape, resignation or death of the President the FVP becomes the caretaker President. I am currently inside my country & am the legitimate care taker President. Am reaching out to all leaders to secure their support & consensus,” he posted on Twitter.

    It appears Amrullah Saleh has retreated to the country's last remaining holdout: the Panjshir Valley northeast of Kabul.

    "I won't disappoint millions who listened to me. I will never be under one ceiling with Taliban. NEVER," he wrote in English on Twitter on August 15, before going underground.

    A day later, pictures began to surface on social media of the former Vice-President with the son of his former mentor and famed anti-Taliban fighter Ahmed Shah Massoud in Panjshir — a mountainous redoubt tucked into the Hindu Kush.

    Mr. Saleh and Massoud's son, who commands a militia force, appear to be putting together the first pieces of a guerilla movement to take on the victorious Taliban, as fighters regroup in Panjshir.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...ahmad-massoud/
    Ahmad Massoud is the leader of the National Resistance Front of Afghanistan.

    In 1998, when I was 9 years old, my father, the mujahideen commander Ahmad Shah Massoud, gathered his soldiers in a cave in the Panjshir Valley of northern Afghanistan. They sat and listened as my father’s friend, French philosopher Bernard-Henri Lévy, addressed them. “When you fight for your freedom,” Lévy said, “you fight also for our freedom.”

    My father never forgot this as he fought against the Taliban regime. Up until the moment he was assassinated on Sept. 9, 2001, at the behest of the Taliban and al-Qaeda, he was fighting for the fate of Afghanistan but also for the West.

    Now this common struggle is more essential than ever in these dark, tense hours for my homeland.

    I write from the Panjshir Valley today, ready to follow in my father’s footsteps, with mujahideen fighters who are prepared to once again take on the Taliban. We have stores of ammunition and arms that we have patiently collected since my father’s time, because we knew this day might come.

    We also have the weapons carried by the Afghans who, over the past 72 hours, have responded to my appeal to join the resistance in Panjshir. We have soldiers from the Afghan regular army who were disgusted by the surrender of their commanders and are now making their way to the hills of Panjshir with their equipment. Former members of the Afghan Special Forces have also joined our struggle.

    But that is not enough. If Taliban warlords launch an assault, they will of course face staunch resistance from us. The flag of the National Resistance Front will fly over every position that they attempt to take, as the National United Front flag flew 20 years ago. Yet we know that our military forces and logistics will not be sufficient. They will be rapidly depleted unless our friends in the West can find a way to supply us without delay.

    Opinion by David Ignatius | Good intentions and seductive illusions: Scenes from Afghanistan’s long descent

    The United States and its allies have left the battlefield, but America can still be a “great arsenal of democracy,” as Franklin D. Roosevelt said when coming to the aid of the beleaguered British before the U.S. entry into World War II.

    To that end, I entreat Afghanistan’s friends in the West to intercede for us in Washington and in New York, with Congress and with the Biden administration. Intercede for us in London, where I completed my studies, and in Paris, where my father’s memory was honored this spring by the naming of a pathway for him in the Champs-Élysées gardens.

    Know that millions of Afghans share your values. We have fought for so long to have an open society, one where girls could become doctors, our press could report freely, our young people could dance and listen to music or attend soccer matches in the stadiums that were once used by the Taliban for public executions — and may soon be again.

    The Taliban is not a problem for the Afghan people alone. Under Taliban control, Afghanistan will without doubt become ground zero of radical Islamist terrorism; plots against democracies will be hatched here once again.

    No matter what happens, my mujahideen fighters and I will defend Panjshir as the last bastion of Afghan freedom. Our morale is intact. We know from experience what awaits us.

    But we need more weapons, more ammunition and more supplies.

    America and its democratic allies do not just have the fight against terrorism in common with Afghans. We now have a long history made up of shared ideals and struggles. There is still much that you can do to aid the cause of freedom. You are our only remaining hope.
    Last edited by spmetla; 08-18-2021 at 23:37.

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
    -Abraham Lincoln


    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

    Member thankful for this post:



  12. #42

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    Fun fact: The majority of living Afghanis, including the Taliban themselves, are younger than the US mission in Afghanistan, the sociological implications of which would be a fascinating area of study if there were anyone with the means or ability to study it.

    We've changed Afghanistan's cultures profoundly, in an absolute manner of speaking.

    Couple choice quotes:

    A 30-year-old Afghan soldier from Jallaabd, who was just ten when the U.S. freed his country from the Taliban’s grip, told The Daily Beast he “can’t believe what happened.” On Saturday night, he says he and his contingent were told by their superior to surrender. “We did, we had a plan to fight for a while but no one asked us for fight. This is the most ridiculous moment of my life.”

    He says he and other soldiers wanted to fight. “This is a drama that happened and we still have no idea what will be the fate of our country.”

    Meanwhile, a Taliban fighter named Hafiz Haji told The Daily Beast, “We reached the presidential palace gate—the presidential guards quickly got down off their post... we are inside the place, we are now in the palace, we did it indeed! Captured everything, lots of weapons in the palace depot.”

    A source in Kabul told The Daily Beast on the condition of anonymity that the Taliban had sought a peaceful transfer of power without fighting. They also revealed that Ali Ahmad, the former minister of interior, will likely be made the head of an interim caretaker government.

    A senior Afghan official in Kabul expressed his frustration to The Daily Beast as the situation deteriorated throughout the day. “The fall of Kabul dishonors the sacrifice of over 150,000 Afghan lives, over 3,000 of NATO soldiers’ lives, 20 years of reconstruction efforts and over a trillion U.S. dollars. It is the beginning of hopelessness and bottomless uncertainty for the long-suffering Afghans. May Allah protect us because all the worldly superpowers came, killed us, failed and left us in lurch.

    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla View Post
    Read the below report on the burnpits at FOB Salerno. The US contracted to build incinerators to replace the burn pits and then never used them. FYI it is a case study in the Army's ILE for mid level officers in trying to rectify the Army's mismanagement in contract control by teaching the responsibilities for it. Bear in mind that military Officers generally don't have a business background so when they are suddenly in charge of checking work quality and contracts for compliance they aren't too good at it which is compounded by rotating troops out every nine months.
    Good point. US Grant's Wild West administration in the Orient. The link is broken though.

    Back to Panjshir then, war never changes.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  13. #43
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Kona, Hawaii
    Posts
    2,985

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    Checked the link and I guess you need DoD certs installed to view the page so linked a different page with a bunch of summaries form SIGAR for congress though it doesn't mention FOB Salerno specifically.
    https://docs.house.gov/meetings/AS/A...J-20131029.pdf

    Also, Panshir was never in the past run by the Taliban so I'm no surprised they are resisting. The quotes you had especially of the Afghan Soldier is why I'm so surprised that the ANA cut and run completely. Despite the corruption and ineptitude they had in the past fought the Taliban quite willingly and without US advisors right along side.

    The double shame for the US with our pullout would be that if there is another northern alliance that gets some success that we'd not deal with them at all because the administration probably just wants to be done with Afghanistan even if it means treating the Taliban as the rightful government.

    I'm really curious as to what Russia and China will do in the country. China besides using the propaganda value of the US not being faithful in their dispute with Taiwan has no love for the Taliban as they've in the past support the Uighurs. The Russians as well don't want the Taliban to then export their brand to the rest of central asia where Russian influence is already waning.

    So many unknowns...

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
    -Abraham Lincoln


    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

  14. #44
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Fortress
    Posts
    11,852

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla View Post
    As for the polling data, most Americans have been completely ignorant about the war in Afghanistan for the last 20years. Talking with friends that are suddenly outraged at the quick pullout they seem to have the impression that US Soldiers were in the 'trenches' up until a few weeks ago and then suddenly left when in actuality the ANA has been in the lead for fighting the Taliban for the past five years, US/NATO commitments were really in air power, training, and advising not so much fighting anymore. US casualties have only been in the dozens per year the last few years and hasn't had a combat KIA in years either.
    There's an interesting poll that came out this week that shows that Americans don't really know what we should do about Afghanistan anymore.

    I mean look at these numbers:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	E9CA0UPX0AMpKqy.jpg 
Views:	44 
Size:	133.9 KB 
ID:	24985

    Also something tells me that a good number of participants haven't actually been following the war and the withdrawal plans like they claim. Ultimately this boils down to the fact that Americans wanted out of Afghanistan, but wanted out quietly so we wouldn't have to pay attention just like we havent paid attention for 20 years. But now that Afghanistan collapsed we are being forced to recognize our failure and we didnt want to face it.

    Meanwhile Ashraf Ghani has fled to the UAE and the first Vice President of Afghanistan, Amrullah Saleh has vowed to keep fighting the Taliban and has fled to the Panshir valley to continue the resistance. This together with the protests in Jalalabad that in which three people were killed by the Taliban and the rumors of arrests in Herat and Kandahar make the situation tenuous for all Afghans to include the Taliban. Transitioning from resistance to rule is always dangerous and difficult, most conquerors make poor rulers and the Talibans deal with the devil that is narco-terrorism will be difficult to break.
    As more info starts to come out its hard to see Ghani as anything but a villain in this story. Read stories of units being ordered to stand down and saw video of officers ordering crying soldiers to turn over their weapons, so it will be interesting and sad to know what exactly happened. I agree with you that Trump shares equal blame in this debacle- not including the Afghan government in Doha doomed it as we all knew they couldn't survive on their own.

    As for the Afghan forces themselves, I think people are kidding themselves if they think they could have stood on their own if it wasn't for the betrayal from the top. There was far too much corruption, drug use, and ineptitude to allow for that. This short video popped up on Reddit yesterday which really just hammers that home. Now make no mistake, there were Afghan soldiers and units who stood and fought (as we see whats going on in Panjshir now), but it would never have been enough. I am definitely following news of the resistance closely, since I feel that the Taliban is going to have a harder time maintaining control this time around as we now have a generation of Afghans who havent lived under Taliban rule as Monty said.
    Last edited by Hooahguy; 08-19-2021 at 01:23.
    On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
    Visited:
    A man who casts no shadow has no soul.
    Hvil i fred HoreTore

    Member thankful for this post:



  15. #45

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban





    Last edited by Shaka_Khan; 08-19-2021 at 11:03.

  16. #46

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    That's the very poll I posted, and what's also bemusing is that both Obama and Trump get half the respondents' approval for Afghanistan handling, just ahead of Bush's 47% (with equal shares from both parties!).

    Yeah, so we're never going to learn the lessons of the past 20 years, huh?


    I recall now that, from the Afghan channel I mentioned earlier, the one woman guest had fled to Turkey earlier in the year after being physically threatened, but last month was reportedly on the way back - relocating to Kabul. I'm sure there's an appropriate gif here. I've made some big mistakes in my life, but I'm not sure if any of that magnitude.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  17. #47
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Fortress
    Posts
    11,852

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    Oops, somehow missed your post- I should have scrolled up, sorry about that Monty.

    Also this fun little story just popped up on my newsfeed. No idea how true it is but if so, hooo boy.

    Trump’s Pledge to Exit Afghanistan Was a Ruse, His Final SecDef Says

    President Donald Trump’s top national security officials never intended to pull all U.S. troops out of Afghanistan, according to new statements by Chris Miller, Trump’s last acting defense secretary.

    Miller said the president’s public promise to finish withdrawing U.S. forces by May 1, as negotiated with the Taliban, was actually a “play” that masked the Trump administration’s true intentions: to convince Afghan President Ashraf Ghani to quit or accept a bitter power-sharing agreement with the Taliban, and to keep some U.S. troops in Afghanistan for counterrorism missions.

    In a conversation this week with Defense One, Miller revealed that while serving as the top counterterrorism official on the National Security Council in 2019, he commissioned a wargame that determined that the United States could continue to conduct counterterrorism in Afghanistan with just 800 American military personnel on the ground. And by the end of 2020, when he was acting defense secretary, Miller asserted, many Trump administration officials expected that the United States would be able to broker a new shared government in Afghanistan composed primarily of Taliban officials. The new government would then permit U.S. forces to remain in country to support the Afghan military and fight terrorist elements.

    That plan never happened, in part because Trump lost his reelection bid in November. And at least one other former senior Trump administration official questioned Miller’s retelling. But in revealing it, Miller challenged recent assertions that Trump is to blame for setting up this week’s chaotic scenes unfolding across Kabul. Miller alleged that despite Trump’s frequent public pledges to end the Afghanistan war and bring home all U.S. troops, many senior national security officials in his administration believed a total withdrawal was not inevitable.
    Sounds like a load of baloney to avert blame if you ask me. But if its true then why wasnt the Biden team briefed on such a plan? If I had to guess it was intentional.
    Last edited by Hooahguy; 08-19-2021 at 04:10.
    On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
    Visited:
    A man who casts no shadow has no soul.
    Hvil i fred HoreTore

    Member thankful for this post:



  18. #48

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/17/w...-al-qaeda.html
    The Taliban Are Back. Now Will They Restrain or Support Al Qaeda?
    https://freebeacon.com/national-secu...isis-fighters/
    Taliban Frees Thousands of Prisoners, Including al Qaeda and ISIS Fighters
    https://www.the-sun.com/news/3493502...a-afghanistan/
    TERROR 'HAVEN' Taliban is ALREADY offering ‘safe haven’ to Al Qaeda in Afghanistan in bid to create ‘cradle of jihad’








    Last edited by Shaka_Khan; 08-19-2021 at 11:48.

  19. #49

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    This is going on during the Department of Defense briefing. There's a suspicious vehicle near the Library of Congress...

    Last edited by Shaka_Khan; 08-19-2021 at 16:20.
    Wooooo!!!

  20. #50
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Fortress
    Posts
    11,852

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan View Post
    This is going on during the Department of Defense briefing. There's a suspicious vehicle near the Library of Congress...
    Seems unrelated to the Pentagon briefing- this is the guy in the Truck. Just another far-right terrorism incident. Especially since the Pentagon is on the other side of town anyways.
    On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
    Visited:
    A man who casts no shadow has no soul.
    Hvil i fred HoreTore

  21. #51
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Kona, Hawaii
    Posts
    2,985

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    Interesting read by RAND report:
    Collapse in Afghanistan: Early Insights from RAND Researchers
    https://www.rand.org/blog/2021/08/co...N000009IRT1QAO

    Excerpt:
    What's the most likely scenario for Afghans who are trying to flee?

    Culbertson: Regardless of what the United States does at this point, it may be that hundreds of thousands of people will flee and then live in squalid camps for decades, while options for resettlement to another country, return to Afghanistan, or securing citizenship in Pakistan or Iran remain low. This will only add to the world's 82 million refugees and internally displaced people who live in similar conditions and have dim prospects for durable solutions.

    Will Afghanistan become a safe haven for terrorist groups like the last time the Taliban was in charge, before the 9/11 attacks? Should we expect a threat to the U.S. homeland?

    Robinson: The Biden administration has pledged to maintain an “over the horizon” counterterrorism capability to disrupt any threats that arise from Afghanistan. But without an intelligence presence on the ground, the ability to detect emerging threats will be limited.

    Russia and China have some incentive to deter and disrupt terrorist activity that could spill over into Central Asian states and China's Xinjiang province. Similarly, neighboring Iran has some incentive to deflect a spillover of radical Sunni elements into its Shia-majority country—although Iran has acted as a safe haven for al Qaeda elements at times, for tactical reasons.
    Andrew Radin: I agree that the ability of the United States to unilaterally observe and act against a terrorist threat in Afghanistan or coming from groups in Afghanistan will likely be far more limited under a Taliban-control government. The Taliban are almost certain to reject any U.S. military action in the country, and if the United States does take military action against their will, then they could retaliate against any U.S. diplomatic presence in the country. The U.S. State Department sought assurances from the Taliban that they would not attack the U.S. embassy and its personnel and conditioned future assistance on the Taliban's treatment of Americans.

    Campbell: I think events will have to play out before we can determine with more certainty the immediate threat to the U.S. homeland.

    It's safe to say that an Afghanistan where the Taliban is the dominant political player is going to be much more accommodating to al Qaeda and like-minded groups. But there are a couple of factors that will determine the extent to which those groups pose a threat internationally.

    For one thing, the Taliban has long craved international recognition that it is a viable political entity and worthy of being accepted as the rightful leader of the Afghan state. As such, I don't believe that they want to go back to being a pariah state if they can avoid it. Given their current momentum, I think the Taliban can achieve a preferable outcome of becoming the dominant actor in a revamped political order that at least has the guise of being inclusive. Under such a scenario, they can justifiably surmise that a portion of the international community will at least begrudgingly accept their role. Evidence suggests that regional leaders are maneuvering to engage with and likely come to terms with Taliban leadership.

    Radin: Yes, the Taliban's policy toward terrorist groups will have an important effect on the future threat of terrorism from Afghanistan. The Taliban does have a history of a close relationship with al Qaeda, including hosting the group prior to 2001. At the same time, the Taliban committed in the February 2020 U.S.-Taliban agreement to preventing groups such as al Qaeda from using Afghan soil to threaten the United States or its allies. However, there may be reason to doubt the Taliban's assurances. U.S. officials have previously said that they are not fully satisfied with the Taliban's compliance with the peace agreement.

    Another consideration is that al Qaeda is far weaker now than it was in 2001. A United Nations report suggests that al Qaeda has about 400 to 600 personnel in Afghanistan.

    The threat from ISIS-K, the only other significant group that may pose an external threat in the near to medium term, is less worrisome. The Taliban is a clear enemy of ISIS-K and fought them fiercely in 2019.
    Finally, what are some of the geopolitical implications of the rapid collapse in Afghanistan?

    Derek Grossman: China is likely to soon welcome and legitimize the Taliban's leadership. Although Beijing's official position is to support Afghan national reconciliation, it has simultaneously been engaging officially with the Taliban since 2019 and unofficially for the last several years to prepare for the Taliban regaining power. Notably, during July 2021, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi welcomed Taliban representatives to China in a highly visible sign of warming China-Taliban relations.

    China has two key and interrelated objectives in post-U.S. Afghanistan.

    First and foremost, as Linda mentioned, Beijing seeks stability in Afghanistan to avoid any potential spillover into China's northwest province of Xinjiang. Xinjiang is home to the ethnic Uyghur minority, some of whom Beijing assesses are part of a separatist and terrorist group known as the East Turkistan Islamic Movement (ETIM). To date, China has mostly relied upon its “ironclad brother” Pakistan to do the heavy lifting and prevent terrorists from entering Xinjiang or otherwise supporting ETIM's cause. But this time, Taliban spokesman Suhail Shaheen said, “We care about the oppression of Muslims, be it in Palestine, in Myanmar, or in China, and we care about the oppression of non-Muslims anywhere in the world. But what we are not going to do is interfere in China's internal affairs.”

    China's second priority is to secure access to Afghanistan's natural resources. According to one 2014 report, Afghanistan may possess nearly a trillion dollars' worth of extractable rare-earth metals locked within its mountains. To access these metals, China will first require stability to build highways, roads, and rail into and throughout the country. Beijing is already involved in several projects, although Kabul had resisted formal participation in China's Belt and Road Initiative to avoid getting on the wrong side of the United States. This may change soon.

    China and Pakistan are likely to remain closely aligned on Afghanistan, and this is yet another positive for Beijing as the Taliban consolidates its power.

    Campbell: The geostrategic effect could be profound, as China, Russia, and even Iran could benefit from the new political order in Kabul. Depending on what transpires, this may prove to be a huge loss for the United States.

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
    -Abraham Lincoln


    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

  22. #52
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    8,688
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    A movement has taken over Afghanistan by force of arms... the very same force that America deposed 20 years ago which would be viewed under international law as the crime. You can't choose someone else's head of state, recognise them and say everything is now legitimate. Unless you have most of the guns in which case everyone else smiles at the biggest bully.

    There will doubtless be many refugees due to this. As there outside of Syria, Iraq, Libya and Israel. Having millions of refugees is never "good" but this is the case in many countries around the world with American involvement in the situation in quite a few of them (if we add the flow of guns and drugs in Central America the number increases). It is such a shame that the millions who are terrified of the Taliban were unable to fight against them.

    The same holds true for Terrorism. Pakistan alone has enough land for all the camps, let alone all the other current failed states along with those that actively dislike the West. To point out the obvious, the architects of 9/11 fled to Afghanistan, but they most likely plotted in Saudi Arabia and some trained in the USA itself.

    The UK apparently finally seems to be realising that the word "Great" is in relation to Brittany, and nothing more. I thought that the Suez Crisis had been the wake up call that we are, at best, a Tier 2 power that likes to have a few powerful toys to pretend to be able to keep up with the big boys but is fooling no one but themselves. And that the "Special Relationship" is closer to being in an abusive relationship where the USA loves us as long as we do everything they want ideally before they ask and to do otherwise might make them upset which is our fault, rather than accepting we are useful, and generally do have similar views on matters but that's it. Israel gets far more support and treats the USA far worse. If after all the empty speeches and shock dies down this reality remains then that is a small step forward.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  23. #53

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    The UK apparently finally seems to be realising that the word "Great" is in relation to Brittany, and nothing more. I thought that the Suez Crisis had been the wake up call that we are, at best, a Tier 2 power that likes to have a few powerful toys to pretend to be able to keep up with the big boys but is fooling no one but themselves.
    Arthur Conan Doyle's Watson fought in Afghanistan. So did BBC's Watson.



    Good summaries of the situation from February 2020.
    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/...collapsed.html
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/17/u...istration.html
    https://twitter.com/kurteichenwald/s...49518901071880

    Can't find the article I read for citation, but it really highlights the alarming incompetence of our military-security establishment that, observing the Taliban had gone in a couple of months from controlling fewer than a fifth of districts in Afghanistan in the spring, to fully 50% by mid-July, still produced estimates on the Kabul regime's survivability based on the seeming assumption that it would suddenly begin to wage Nazi-style endsieg for 3 to 6 months. Kabul 2021 was never going to be Berlin 1945!!!

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Hypothetical Battle of Kabul in someone's mind, maybe



    Whoever entertained that should really be demoted or fired above all others. For all that Biden is blameless for, I must express disappointment, attendant to his deep experience with foreign policy and the executive, that he couldn't apply the common sense to see through this of all BSes in time to react (or he did perceive but cynically hoped he could complete the withdrawal of Americans before the downfall). It's commendable that he called the Blob's bluff on the Forever War, but you can't go cruise control on big decisions. The US government took proximate actions intended to stave off panic and disintegration (no expansive Afghan expatriation in the spring) that somewhat-predictably concluded in panic and disintegration. At the very least, there was a month before the fall of Kabul where the equation had very visibly changed, and it was appropriate to seek more time from the Taliban and to temp-surge to secure Kabul for non-combat operations. Now we are "at the mercy of their whims," smug and relaxed though the Taliban be in their moment of triumph, with insurgents escorting foreigners to the airport and asking for selfies with them. I really hope the government is quietly negotiating some type of asylee expatriation program with the Taliban to head off some of the expected liquidations.

    Biden was not alone in that failure. But his administration should have known that such a collapse was at least a significant possibility, especially since some of the president’s intelligence said as much weeks ago.

    With such information available, the White House should have done more to protect American citizens and allies in Afghanistan. The administration could have better prepared for mass evacuations at Kabul’s airport. It could have expedited the processing of the 18,000 applications in the the Afghan Special Immigrant Visa (SIV) program’s backlog. It could have allowed Afghans who lacked visas, but could demonstrate a legitimate basis for fearing Taliban reprisals, to fly to Guam to await in safety the assessment of their eligibility for asylum. And the White House could have laid the groundwork for mass refugee admissions to the U.S. by setting a much higher annual cap than it did earlier this year (or even abolishing that cap entirely).

    Current reporting suggests that such measures weren’t taken primarily because the president feared domestic political backlash. As one anonymous administration official told Politico this week, “It’s like they want the credit from liberals for ending the Trump cruelty to immigrants and refugees but they also don’t want the political backlash that comes from actual refugees arriving in America in any sort of large numbers.”
    Those who fought to extend America’s war in Afghanistan have every incentive to divert our attention from these revelations. They would like the public to miss the forest for the trees — by mistaking Biden’s tactical errors for strategic ones. The primary lesson of the past week could be that the U.S. war in Afghanistan was a catastrophe and that those who misled the public about the Afghan army’s strength deserve little input on future policy, no matter how many stars they have on their uniforms or diplomas they have on their walls. Alternatively, if news coverage focuses exhaustively on the shortcomings of Biden’s withdrawal, while largely ignoring what our client state’s abrupt collapse tells us about our two-decade-long occupation, then the lesson of Kabul’s fall could be quite favorable for Beltway hawks: Presidents shouldn’t end wars in defiance of the military brass unless they wish to become unpopular. Unfortunately, we are currently hurtling toward that latter outcome. In recent days, much of the mainstream media has comported itself as the Pentagon’s Pravda. Reporters have indignantly asked the White House how it could say that America doesn’t have a vital national security interest in maintaining a military presence near Tajikistan... American military leaders in Kabul systematically lied to the public about how well the war against the Taliban was going, so as to insulate their preferred foreign policy from democratic contestation.
    If Biden did not withdraw U.S. troops from Afghanistan this year, he would have violated the agreement that Donald Trump had struck with the Taliban in February 2020. There is every reason to believe that Trump’s deal deterred the Taliban from targeting U.S. troops; 2020 witnessed fewer U.S. casualties in Afghanistan than any previous year of the conflict. And there is little doubt that an abrogation of that agreement would have led the Taliban to ramp up attacks on U.S. forces, which would in turn have led the U.S. to deploy more troops, triggering a broader escalation in the war.

    Such an escalation would have likely been inevitable, even in the absence of Trump’s agreement. In the years before that deal, the Taliban was steadily gaining territory and killing Afghan security forces in such large numbers the U.S. government started concealing battlefield death tolls. Keeping Ghani’s kleptocracy indefinitely aloft with a few thousand American soldiers and scant U.S. casualties was simply not an option.
    More critically, U.S. casualties are not the only measure of the harms of prolonging a civil war that America lacked the will and wherewithal to win. Afghan soldiers’ lives matter. So do the lives of Afghan civilians, many of whom would prefer stability under the Taliban to perpetual insurgency under Ghani. For ordinary Afghans, the conflict has meant “elevated rates of disease due to lack of clean drinking water, malnutrition, and reduced access to health care,” according to the Watson Institute’s “Costs of War” project. The institute’s research concludes, “Nearly every factor associated with premature death — poverty, malnutrition, poor sanitation, lack of access to health care, environmental degradation — is exacerbated by the current war.” Between 2007 and 2017, the share of Afghan civilians living below the poverty line rose from 34 percent to 55 percent, even as the nation’s average income grew by 40 percent — a reality that testifies to the humanitarian costs of the war we waged, the profound corruption of the government whose name we waged it in, and the graft of the U.S. military contractors whose interests the war best served.
    The Washington Post’s Susannah George reports that one of the main reasons the Taliban was able to take over the country so fast with so little fighting was because it had a well-executed plan to negotiate with or coerce security forces and provincial leaders to get them to desert, surrender, or switch sides:

    The deals, initially offered early last year, were often described by Afghan officials as cease-fires, but Taliban leaders were in fact offering money in exchange for government forces to hand over their weapons, according to an Afghan officer and a U.S. official. Over the next year and a half, the meetings advanced to the district level and then rapidly on to provincial capitals, culminating in a breathtaking series of negotiated surrenders by government forces, according to interviews with more than a dozen Afghan officers, police, special operations troops and other soldiers. The Taliban capitalized on the uncertainty caused by the February 2020 agreement reached in Doha, Qatar, between the militant group and the United States calling for a full American withdrawal from Afghanistan. Some Afghan forces realized they would soon no longer be able to count on American air power and other crucial battlefield support and grew receptive to the Taliban’s approaches.

    The Doha agreement, designed to bring an end to the war in Afghanistan, instead left many Afghan forces demoralized, bringing into stark relief the corrupt impulses of many Afghan officials and their tenuous loyalty to the country’s central government. Some police officers complained that they had not been paid in six months or more.
    At Defense One, retired brigadier general and former deputy assistant secretary of defense for Middle East policy Mark Kimmitt also emphasized the Taliban’s “deft use of information operations”:
    While many of the world’s armies struggle with this concept, the Taliban have mastered the core elements of public relations, psychological operations, and propaganda. Its brilliant public-relations campaigners created sophisticated propaganda for its own forces, talking about inevitable victory, focusing on “messages to its soldiers and … maintaining unity among them by reminding them of their continuous series of conquests.” For the broader world, they have conducted an “image offensive” to convince the world of a more moderate “Taliban 2.0.” And against the ANDSF, they have been running an equally successful psyops operation to persuade a large number of Afghan units to surrender or withdraw from the battlefield. Many commanders “just surrendered in return for amnesty, which the Taliban granted them and let them go home.”
    Further reflections on soft power: The Taliban won the war on it, diplomatically and financially and discursively from the international stage to the contest by village and outpost and city. Their coercive capacities were necessary, but secondary. In a standup fight without guile and finesse, only brawn more like the 20th-century days, the Taliban would have had to wage a protracted and exhausting final campaign despite their fighting elements' unit-for-unit martial superiority. The US desperately needs to learn from this, whether for the sake of its empire or for the sake of its survival.

    Retired U.S. Army colonel Mike Jason, who was one of countless officers who worked to train security forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, highlights at The Atlantic how those forces had no institutional backbone:

    We did not successfully build the Iraqi and Afghan forces as institutions. We failed to establish the necessary infrastructure that dealt effectively with military education, training, pay systems, career progression, personnel, accountability — all the things that make a professional security force. Rotating teams through tours of six months to a year, we could not resolve the vexing problems facing Iraq’s and Afghanistan’s armies and police: endemic corruption, plummeting morale, rampant drug use, abysmal maintenance, and inept logistics. We got really good at preparing platoons and companies to conduct raids and operate checkpoints, but little worked behind them. It is telling that today, the best forces in Afghanistan are the special-forces commandos, small teams that perform courageously and magnificently — but despite a supporting institution, not because of one.
    Jason adds that the U.S. military “can and should be blamed for the collapse of security forces in Afghanistan” and that what has happened to the Afghan forces keeps him up at night. “For more than 20 years,” he writes, “no matter what was reported, what we read in the headlines, efforts to build and train large-scale conventional security forces in Afghanistan and Iraq have mostly been an aimless, ham-fisted acronym soup of trial and error that never became the true main effort, and we are to blame for that.


    The media have always been incredibly biased in favor of American intervention under any condition. May have to give that Chomsky chap a look.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Yesterday's newsletter detailed how the media is largely overlooking voices that supported Biden's decision to withdraw from Afghanistan. Instead media reports are almost exclusively highlighting criticism of the withdrawal — often from people complicit in two decades of failed policy in Afghanistan.

    We have reason to believe that this is not an accident. On Wednesday, Popular Information spoke to a veteran communications professional who has been trying to place prominent voices supportive of the withdrawal on television and in print. The source said that it has been next to impossible:

    I’ve been in political media for over two decades, and I have never experienced something like this before. Not only can I not get people booked on shows, but I can’t even get TV bookers who frequently book my guests to give me a call back…

    I’ve fed sources to reporters, who end up not quoting the sources, but do quote multiple voices who are critical of the president and/or put the withdrawal in a negative light.

    I turn on TV and watch CNN and, frankly, a lot of MSNBC shows, and they’re presenting it as if there’s not a voice out there willing to defend the president and his decision to withdraw. But I offered those very shows those voices, and the shows purposely decided to shut them out.

    In so many ways this feels like Iraq and 2003 all over again. The media has coalesced around a narrative, and any threat to that narrative needs to be shut out.

    Who is on TV? As Media Matters has documented, there are plenty of former Bush administration officials criticizing the withdrawal.

    Is it really about execution?
    Much of the criticism of Biden's decision to withdraw has focused on the administration's "execution." The critics claim the withdrawal was poorly planned, chaotic, and unnecessarily put Americans — and their Afghan allies — in danger.

    Some of these claims may be true. It's hard to know, for example, how many people have been left behind since evacuations are ongoing. But, with a few exceptions, the criticisms of Biden's execution are being made by people who opposed withdrawal altogether.

    For example, in a scathing column published in the Washington Post, former National Security Advisor and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice criticizes the execution of the withdrawal. But she also makes clear that she does not think the U.S. military should have left.

    Twenty years was not enough to complete a journey from the 7th-century rule of the Taliban and a 30-year civil war to a stable government. Twenty years may also not have been enough to consolidate our gains against terrorism and assure our own safety. We — and they — needed more time.

    Rice's argument for why the withdrawal was executed poorly is very similar. She says that waiting a few more months, until winter, would have made it more difficult for the Taliban to fight and "given the Afghans a little more time to develop a strategy to prevent the chaotic fall of Kabul."

    But Rice's argument makes clear that it is impossible to disentangle the execution of the withdrawal with the broader policy failures of the last two decades. It may be more difficult for the Taliban to fight in the winter, but the Taliban did not need to fight. Afghan security forces simply evaporated.

    The twenty-year effort to build up these institutions — touted by Rice and much of the national security establishment — was a total failure. An orderly evacuation would require some period of time between the end of U.S. military operations and the collapse of the Afghan security forces. What has transpired over the last week demonstrated that wasn't possible.

    Absent functional Afghan institutions, it's up to the U.S. military to facilitate an evacuation. That is largely what happened. Thousands of U.S. troops are in Afghanistan securing the Kabul airport and trying to get people out of the country.

    Was the status quo sustainable?
    Another argument, advanced by former UK official Rory Stewart in the Washington Post, is that the U.S. military footprint was quite small and should have been retained indefinitely:

    You would be forgiven for thinking the U.S. was getting itself out of another Vietnam War: fantastically dangerous and expensive, achieving nothing, and impossible to sustain. But in truth, U.S. combat operations in Afghanistan formally ended in 2014; troop levels had decreased to about 2,500; and there have been no American combat fatalities since February 2020.

    When he became president, Biden took over a relatively low-cost, low-risk presence in Afghanistan that was nevertheless capable of protecting the achievements of the previous 20 years.

    What Stewart ignores is that the low levels of violence in recent months coincided with the Trump administration's announcement that the U.S. military presence would end in 2021. If, instead, the Biden administration announced that it was staying indefinitely, the situation could have changed dramatically.

    The small U.S. military footprint also came with a high cost to Afghan civilians. With few troops on the ground, the military increasingly relied on air power to keep the Taliban at bay. This kept U.S. fatalities low but resulted in a massive increase in civilian casualties. A Brown University study found that between 2016 and 2019 the "number of civilians killed by international airstrikes increased about 330 percent." In October 2020 "212 civilians were killed."






    ^^^Still columnist at NYT. Three-time Pulitzer prize winner.

    The Onion has been imitating reality for a long time after all.



    Last edited by Montmorency; 08-22-2021 at 07:37.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Member thankful for this post:



  24. #54

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    Wooooo!!!

  25. #55
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Fortress
    Posts
    11,852

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    Ah Mark Levin, the guy wrote a book about Marxism and yet thought the Frankfurt school was the Franklin school.

    Anyways the whole "oh no Afghanistan will be a safe haven for terrorists" folk seem to forget that even without Afghanistan as a safe haven, terror cells have managed to commit many major acts of terror since 2001. Terrorists dont need an Afghanistan to plan terror attacks. Plus counter-terror intelligence has improved greatly in the past 20 years, so all the hand-wringing about how we are going to have another 9/11 feels really hollow.
    On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
    Visited:
    A man who casts no shadow has no soul.
    Hvil i fred HoreTore

  26. #56

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    Thankfully, the airlift itself has been proceeding well since it began. DoD is good at mission logistics, not much else.

    To help speed evacuations, the Air Force is sending nearly three dozen C-17 transport planes to Kabul on Monday, CNN reports, adding that as many as 20,000 people are awaiting an airlift.

    American evacuations from Afghanistan picked up speed over the weekend, with President Joe Biden telling the country on Sunday afternoon that 11,000 people had been airlifted out of Kabul in the previous 30 hours.
    According to a White House pool report on Monday, from 3:00 a.m. EDT to 3:00 p.m. EDT, about 10,900 people were evacuated from Kabul. Of those, 6,660 people were evacuated on 15 U.S. military flights and about 4,300 on 34 coalition flights.

    The pool report notes that: "Since August 14, the U.S. has evacuated and facilitated the evacuation of approximately 48,000 people. Since the end of July, we have re-located approximately 53,000 people."
    White House officials say every Afghan being newly granted admission to the United States is undergoing biometric and biographic security screening at stops overseas before arrival in the United States.

    The officials spoke Monday on condition of anonymity to brief reporters on details of the processing. From the single arrival point of Dulles International Airport, new Afghan arrivals were going on to military bases around the United States for further processing. They do not include U.S. citizens, green card holders or their families.

    Each person was undergoing a COVID-19 test on arrival in the U.S. and officials were working on arranging COVID vaccinations for those who want them. Each new Afghan arrival was being connected to a refugee organization that would help them resettle in homes around the United States.
    I imagine most must have been Afghans given the number. By the Taliban's grace our oversights won't hurt too much.

    The biggest military evacuation in US history is going pretty well

    I have had it with coverage of the Kabul evacuation. The plain fact is that, under the circumstances, it's going fairly well. Both Americans and Afghan allies are being flown out safely and bloodshed on the ground is surprisingly limited. Sure, the whole operation is going to take a few weeks, but what did everyone expect?

    But you'd never know this thanks to an immense firehose of crap coming from the very people we should least believe. This includes:

    The hawks who kept the war in Afghanistan going for years with lies and happy talk, and who are now desperate to defend themselves.
    Republicans who figure this is a great opportunity to sling partisan bullshit. Their favorite is that Biden has destroyed America's standing in the world, an old chestnut for which there's no evidence whatsoever.
    Trumpies trying to avoid blame for the execution of their own plan. It is gobsmacking to hear them complain about slow processing of Afghan allies when they were the ones who deliberately hobbled the visa process in the first place.
    Democrats who, as usual, are too damn cowardly to defend the withdrawal for fear of—something. It's not always clear what.
    Reporters who are sympathetic to all this because they genuinely care about the danger that the withdrawal poses for people they knew in Afghanistan.
    The only real mistake the military made in this operation was in not realizing just what a terrible job they had been doing all along. Everything else flows from that. If the Afghan government had been able to hold off the Taliban for even a few weeks, everything would have been fine. But they didn't even try. Ghani just grabbed a few suitcases of cash and took off.

    All by itself, this should tell you how hopeless the situation in Afghanistan has been all along. After 20 years, the Afghan military, even with plenty of warning about when we planned to leave, was unable, and in many cases unwilling, to fight. It's laughable to think that another few months would have made any difference. It's equally laughable to hear from the "light footprint" gang, who think that we could have kept a few thousand troops in Afghanistan forever and avoided any kind of fighting even after the Taliban cease-fire was over.

    As for all the Americans being airlifted out, I suppose it's bad form to point out that they were told to leave months ago? If they had a lick of common sense most of them wouldn't be stuck in Kabul and elsewhere waiting to be rescued.

    The sophisticated attitude these days is to say that, of course, we needed to leave Afghanistan, but surely we could have executed the withdrawal more competently? Maybe, but I'd like to hear the plan. The problems we've run into were baked into the cake long ago, and the actual evacuation itself has been run with courage and guts. "There's a whole nother story line that media could follow," Cheryl Rofer says. "The people who are working to keep the flights running, the people who get on the flights, the people who are helping others to get to the airport, the people who are running the logistics."

    Amen to that. This is by far the biggest military evacuation in US history, and it's being handled surprisingly well. Maybe that will change tomorrow. Anything could happen. But so far the US media has been suckered into a narrative that's almost precisely the opposite of the truth. It needs to stop.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Member thankful for this post:



  27. #57
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    Terrorist attacks on Kabul airport, killing dozens, including 4 US marines. Attributed to an ISIS group. Taliban vow revenge on ISIS.

  28. #58
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Kona, Hawaii
    Posts
    2,985

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    Unfortunately predictable, RIP to all those killed and speedy recovery to the wounded.

    Set me straight here, but from what I can gather the Bonn Agreement established a Constitutional Commission that then presented a version of the old monarchist constitution to an inherently American-backed elite conclave (loya jirga) for approval. Under those conditions it's hard to say that the Afghan people confirmed this constitution, and its state, in terms of either Afghan-traditional or modern Western legitimacy.

    But more to the point, we've been hearing for years that the GIROA was considered ineffectual by the population and was widely disliked and disrespected. This can be true even where most Afghanis distrust the Taliban. There's kind of an incestuous effect in foreign perceptions here, where foreign media and military were most closely interacting with those Afghans who were most Westernized or otherwise most committed to the success of the government, which could color one's impression of attitudes just as much as being in a Twitter bubble.
    Sorry to jump threads Monty but I had no Biden related thing to post too so just replying to this here. The Loya Jirga was mostly selected by each districts tribal leaders. There were some quotas for the diaspora, women, minorities, etc.. but it was a close to a plebiscite as one could get at the time. Yeah, the American backed guys like Karzai had outsized influence but there was no perfect solution, besides, they like any other constitutional government had the power to amend things. That it had the initial backing of most Afghans is sorta seen by the great turnout in the 2004 and 2005 elections.
    The decline in the voting turnout to Taliban threats and disillusion with the government could be seen as a declining legitimacy in a sense but that doesn't make Taliban rule any more legitimate. At least the GIROA had some sort of mandate from the masses until the last few years when the threat of violence made only a minority of people vote.
    In hindsight there should have been the olive branch to the Taliban between 2003-2005 to get them involved in the political process but imagine that would have been a none starter for Bush Jr and they would have put the pressure on Karzai and the interim government that that was not going to happen.

    But they literally couldn't operate air combat or transport missions without American logistics or contractors! To quote Col. Mike Jason(ret.) from the other thread again,
    Absolutely true, but that was to try and stem the corruption. Put an Afghan in charge of the specialized logistics and a lot of the stuff seems to 'disappear' somehow. Also, the US and NATO actually do the same as it's more efficient to have a contractor there for years on end instead of switching green suits out every 6-9 months, especially for equipment that's normally not in our inventory like MATVs, MRAPs, and Mine Rollers.
    We often joked on the advisory side how the ANA G4/S4 (Quartermaster Officers) had more power than the G3/S3 (Operations Officers) which is the total opposite of how Western militaries work. Can't do an operation unless you get those fuel and ammo vouchers stamped.

    In a way the current operation is like Dunkirk, a major strategic and operational defeat followed by wildly successful extraction of available human assets. As for Taliban recognition, the G7 tacitly admitted that there is a path to recognition when they said it will be a unified decision either way.
    Well I know I'll disagree in the that it only became a defeat when we decided we would pullout. It is a successful extraction for the most part but besides the bomb attack today it hasn't been under fire like Dunkirk. If the airport had been under combat conditions as in the ANA fighting and the Taliban rocketing the airport while the evacuation was happening I could see the parallel work more but at Dunkirk the French kept fighting unlike the ANA. The Dunkirk parallel only works if the British then concede Nazi control of the continent and stop fighting them so that the war can end though I'm just being a smartass here, I actually do get your point.

    We never lost the war in Afghanistan (so not quite Vietnam), we just thoroughly lost the peace. We knew how to wage war, but we didn't know - and hardly tried - to build peace. The structure of the GIROA reflected that.
    Quoted for truth.

    As for the current situation with the bombing. The ISIS-K rivalry with Taliban has certainly surfaced again and I imagine that any efforts by the Taliban to 'moderate' as needed to actually govern will cause ISIS-K to leach off the more radical Taliban members. It also shows why not securing other airfields was so stupid by the US. Kabul Airport is convenient for evacuating Kabul residents, yes, but from a security standpoint it's impossible to fully secure an airport in an urban areas without securing a good portion of the urban area too. In hindsight Bagram Air Base should have been the last foothold before pulling out while also doing the same at some of the other key airfields in the country.
    Last edited by spmetla; 08-26-2021 at 20:08.

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
    -Abraham Lincoln


    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

    Member thankful for this post:



  29. #59
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    Q for the Americans: is Biden blamed for these bombings, or is there an understanding that it was done by a group separate from the Taliban? In particular, I'd like to know the left's take on things. I know that Trump and his core will be laying on the blame.

  30. #60
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Fortress
    Posts
    11,852

    Default Re: ISIS and Afghan Taliban

    Like most things, its become partisan: the GOP is calling for Biden to be impeached/resign, and the Dems/left are telling them to go touch grass. Ive been fairly critical of how the pullout was executed, but I dont see how this attack could have been really prevented. From reports it looks like ISIS is going after the Taliban too so I cant imagine that the Taliban are too happy with all this either.

    Today's events sucked in a huge way, but it was sadly inevitable. Huge crowds of people make for a target rich environment. With densely packed chokepoints, a mass casualty event was all but guaranteed. Frankly Im surprised it didnt happen earlier.
    On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
    Visited:
    A man who casts no shadow has no soul.
    Hvil i fred HoreTore

    Member thankful for this post:



Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO