9/11

[Risasi]

The thing about the NSA is that they were doing what everyone suspected they were doing anyway, it was just that they appeared shocked that they actually did do it in front of the Media so they didn't let on they actually knew all along. It is a theme also present in a lot of Hollywood movies, even a Will Smith movie, Enemy of the State pretty much came out saying it was like that.

Anyone who was genuinely surprised and completely unaware was living under a rock.

You just had to reference that particular movie. Gene Hackman's character in that movie was born on Sept. 11th.

"when buildings start blowing up, people's priorities tend to change"

There are other movies where people claim to have found patterns referencing the various combinations of 9 and 11. Life imitating art, imitating life. One can spend many hours falling down those rabbit holes.


As to the topic. I'm not convinced it was an "inside job" so much as "they" had foreknowledge of the plan and just allowed it to happen, only to take advantage of the situation. Much like Pearl Harbor, or the sinking of the Lusitania for example. Never let a good crisis go to waste.


I'm convinced most of the "news" now is just lies. Maybe 90%. Just remember, a good lie is mostly truth. It's probably been that way for a long time. I believe the only thing which has changed is that in the past TPTB used to try and suppress the truth from getting out. Along came other means of communication they couldn't as easily control (printing press, radio waves, internet). Now they obfuscate and deluge people with so much (dis)information anyone who really tries to unravel it end up chasing their own tail or going insane.

I do hope you fellows continue to discuss though. It's quite entertaining...and I'm here to be entertained.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Just remember, a good lie is mostly truth.

This is asinine. A good lie is one that comes from a place of repetition and/or authority. People who are convinced the news is lying to them are just too dumb to understand that news has always been filtered through the perspective of those that present it. Today's media has an openness never seen before since sources are more open about their biases. Smarten up and realize that Murrow is not going to be holding your hand anymore. You are your own judge for interpreting the world, read both sides and let the adversarial process uncover the truth.

[Risasi]

This is asinine. A good lie is one that comes from a place of repetition and/or authority. People who are convinced the news is lying to them are just too dumb to understand that news has always been filtered through the perspective of those that present it. Today's media has an openness never seen before since sources are more open about their biases. Smarten up and realize that Murrow is not going to be holding your hand anymore. You are your own judge for interpreting the world, read both sides and let the adversarial process uncover the truth.

Hmm, interesting. So in other words you are calling me stupid? Why the vitriol? Just because I don't any accept any official story about the 9/11 incident? Whether it's a 9/11 "truther" or the mainstream news media? If I'm supposed to accept the mainstream media which one? The US? France? Al Jazeera? Pravda? BBC?


Since you mention Murrow I'll assume for now you're American? So Brian Williams was unbiased? Yeah, he never lied. And Fox News is fair and balanced too...

I think you miss my point. You say read both sides and then let adversarial process uncover the truth. Who has time to do that? There are only 24 hours in the day.
I'm saying there are no "both sides". It's all ice cream, you just pick your flavor. And every one of them tastes good, makes you feel good for awhile, but eventually you're going to regret eating it.
Every source is tainted to one degree or another. And the only real agenda you can follow is money, or power...or sex. They are interwoven and you can trade one for another.

As to my "a good lie" comment, that is self evident. If you can't see that I don't know how to help you. Perhaps you could explain why Snopes is rife with so many articles marked as status: "mixed" or "multiple"? Many people have fallen for those silly little chain emails. Just imagine how elaborate the lie if you have a media publisher in your pocket.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

ACIN is basically correct - it the steel was heated it would buckle, it does not need to melt and the fact that we have TWO forum mods claiming it does or did is something I find disturbing.

Here's a quick vid of the collapse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft2uIYucsXo

See all the smoke? The towers were on fire for ages, what happened was the fire spread and as a certain point enough of the steel core of the building was hot enough that there was a cascade failure, then because the outside of the building is fairly rigid it appears to telescope into itself - you can actually see that's not exactly what happened, and n fac the Second tower is coming apart as it collapses.

[Papewaio]

Not all metal is melted and cast. There is a whole industry based on manipulating hot iron and steel.

So steel bends as its gets hotter and at temperatures a person with a bellows can create using coal. Then using a hammer a person can generate enough force to bend steel.

This person is called a smith. It used to be such a common profession that one of the most common surnames is Smith.

Now take a hot temperature going for longer then used in a forge and apply not the pressure of a human wield hammer but the weight of twenty stories. Once it starts collapsing it would be a cascading failure as the momentum would add even more force. It goes from being a hammer used as a paper weight to one of a hammer being used to strike a blow as twenty plus stories collapse 3m onto the floor below and then they combine and collapse further with more speed and hence more energy.

[Fisherking]

If fire had caused the building collapse there are several things missing.

Each of the structural members had a safety factor of at least 5, meaning they could support 5 times the load placed upon them. Straight down was the path of greatest resistance.

Had it been fire which caused the failure then you would expect to see the building lean in the direction of least resistance until the effected area toppled over leaving the floors beneath substantially unaffected. Had it pancaked as NIST theorised there would have been a number of substantial jolts and left a collapsed structure about 30 stories high.

Instead we have building 1 coming down in 11 sec. and building 2 in only 9 sec. There was very little of the building left above the first two floors and those who escaped after the collapse reported seeing blue sky overhead. Essentially 900,000 tons of reenforced concrete and steel were pulverised to dust before it ever hit the ground. There were pools of molten metal and the rubble pile remained hot for weeks.

The black smoke coming from the buildings is also an indicator of the temperature of the fires inside. Black smoke is oxygen starved and would indicate fires of only about 600° to possibly 800° C, NIST acknowledges the presence of molten iron and steel but offers no explanation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=OmuzyWC60eE

Just who is ignoring the physics and engineering behind it?

[Greyblades]

Its 2015 and we're still going on about this.

[Viking]

The black smoke coming from the buildings is also an indicator of the temperature of the fires inside. Black smoke is oxygen starved and would indicate fires of only about 600° to possibly 800° C, NIST acknowledges the presence of molten iron and steel but offers no explanation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=OmuzyWC60eE

That's wrong. Molten materials are treated at points 21 and 23 here.

[Fisherking]

That's wrong. Molten materials are treated at points 21 and 23 here.

They are showing ignorance if anyone thinks that glowing orange yellow metal is aluminium. Melted aluminium is silver and dose not glow unless it is in the presence of an electrode used in the smelting process. It would scum over with a white film in its reaction to the air but would not glow. As for being mixed with other materials that would just result in a blackening of the scum rather than forming a glowing mass. This explanation is grasping at straws.

It is also extremely unlikely that any melting could take place in the pulverised remains of the collapsed buildings, as they would have been oxygen deprived and lacking any ready fuel source.

The weakened beams would have toppled the building. Not drop it in its own footprint, following the path of greatest resistance and there is no way it should have fallen at near free fall speeds accelerating as it went.

[Fragony]

Hmm, interesting. So in other words you are calling me stupid? Why the vitriol? Just because I don't any accept any official story about the 9/11 incident? Whether it's a 9/11 "truther" or the mainstream news media? If I'm supposed to accept the mainstream media which one? The US? France? Al Jazeera? Pravda? BBC?


Since you mention Murrow I'll assume for now you're American? So Brian Williams was unbiased? Yeah, he never lied. And Fox News is fair and balanced too...

I think you miss my point. You say read both sides and then let adversarial process uncover the truth. Who has time to do that? There are only 24 hours in the day.
I'm saying there are no "both sides". It's all ice cream, you just pick your flavor. And every one of them tastes good, makes you feel good for awhile, but eventually you're going to regret eating it.
Every source is tainted to one degree or another. And the only real agenda you can follow is money, or power...or sex. They are interwoven and you can trade one for another.

As to my "a good lie" comment, that is self evident. If you can't see that I don't know how to help you. Perhaps you could explain why Snopes is rife with so many articles marked as status: "mixed" or "multiple"? Many people have fallen for those silly little chain emails. Just imagine how elaborate the lie if you have a media publisher in your pocket.

Not calling you an idiot but Acin is right on how metal works, wielders would get out of business if metal couldn't be bended. As for the other buildings, it is highly likely that they were already equiped with explosives, but that doesn't mean anything at all. Secret services are really effective so they probably knew way in advace that this could happen. Damage control. It's rediculous to believe this was an inside job, not implying you say that

[Risasi]

Not calling you an idiot but...

"This is asinine."

as·i·nine
ˈasəˌnīn
adjective
extremely stupid or foolish.

"People who are convinced the news is lying to them are just too dumb to understand"...

"Smarten up and realize that"

Sure he wasn't. Don't worry, I'm not offended. I'm merely pointing out that much of his counterpoint was attack.

...Acin is right on how metal works, wielders would get out of business if metal couldn't be bended. As for the other buildings, it is highly likely that they were already equiped with explosives, but that doesn't mean anything at all. Secret services are really effective so they probably knew way in advace that this could happen. Damage control. It's rediculous to believe this was an inside job, not implying you say that

I find the part I bolded extremely interesting. Is that your explanation for Building 7? I mean...I guess that makes sense, since the alphabet soup agencies were tenants of that building. I'm sure they just happened to have enough explosives laying around to cause the building to pancake in on its footprint too. Or are you saying they kept the entire building wired up for just such an emergency?

Also, secret services are really effective? Meaning they should have known about the attack ahead of time? Or they are just really effective in controlled demolition, but not intelligence?

I've also seen some of the girders from the WTC site, in person (well, allegedly they are). It is in a memorial site in the middle of the United States. As far as I know rest of the evidence...er, I mean debris was promptly sold for scrap and shipped to Russia or China, I think.