To Hijab or not to Hijab

[Montmorency]

What I said is that sometimes your actions have consequences in reality, that does not mean anyone is excused or anyone is blamed, it's just reality.

[Husar]

What I said is that sometimes your actions have consequences in reality, that does not mean anyone is excused or anyone is blamed, it's just reality.

I know, it's the most pointless and boring argument, right?

[Brenus]

"Would it be OK if they made constant jokes about how vulnerable blacks feel if their mother "is mentioned"? Or about gays' womanish ways and behavior? Or about Jews being wealthy greedy bankers? Would you scream bloody murder and accuse them of racism/homophobia/nazism?" Are you joking? Probably not, that show how much ignorant of CH publications you are.
These people were highly politicised. Their fight was for the minorities oppressed by their own religions, are certainly not against gay.
And then never painted the Muslim or the Jews or whatever others population (well, the FN, a little bit) by stereotypes. And if they would, yes, I would.
I was offended by their comment on military and soldiers. And you know what, I accepted it as part of the rights I was defending. The right to think, to have an opinion and to express this opinion, even if I really disliked it.
All poeple pretending the dead were racist ignore one little thing: All characters created by Cabu are based on one picture. He changed the clothing for clergymen, or others "beauf", understand the typical French Front National. "le Beauf" is the prototype of all fanatics, and the uniform they were is just a paint, by the lack of soul is the same.
You would have an impossible task to just give one sample of your claim.
Charb, Cabu, Wolenski, these are their names.
Racists?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...e-9966369.html
And your obsession to smear them racists obscene.

[AE Bravo]

Can you back this up with some sources?

http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/his_nabateans.html
http://nabataea.net/arabia.html

The god Ilat was an Arab god worshipped across the board along with other deities in the Sinai and areas of the Levant. The moon god was also in the levant.
After the collapse of the Marib Dam arabs migrated to the Levant as that region was believed to have rivaled the civilized Yemeni kingdoms in its fertility and history.

http://www.britannica.com/place/Marib-dam

The Qahtan are believed to be the first arabs, their home was Yemen. Qahtan spread out across the Arabian peninsula and you could see the Qahtani family name attached to levantine names for centuries long before Islam and even to this day.

http://www.aldhiaa.com/english/book/...liphs/003.html

These have been Arab lands for ages and they coexisted with other civilizations no question about it. They were THERE, and they COEXISTED with "descendents" of Phoenicians, Egyptians, Mesopotamians, and whatever. In the end Arab inc. was formed and absorbed them all.

I have other Lebanese sources in Arabic if you want. Manathira were Christians, they had Arab converts. Arab Christians surprise surprise.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Zi...ncient&f=false

I suggest PVC stop cherrypicking history and read pages 94-97 before passing judgement on a foreign region he misrepresents completely.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

dishonestly.

Ah yes, the barbarian cannot possibly know the history of my people as well as I do, and he must be lying to boot.

That, sir, is a fallacy.

[AE Bravo]

No, you may know more than I do but what you say contradicts what is common knowledge to me. I love that all this was being challenged but I honestly want to know how you came to this conclusion. I'm sorry, that's not what I meant but simply put you're wrong.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No, you may know more than I do but what you say contradicts what is common knowledge to me. I love that all this was being challenged but I honestly want to know how you came to this conclusion. I'm sorry, that's not what I meant but simply put you're wrong.

Those two sentences contradict each other.

The most common thing about "common knowledge" is that it's wrong. It is, for example, common knowledge that we used to burn witches but no witch was ever burned in England, only heretics. It is common knowledge that the Templars were all zealous warriors who enthusiastically slaughtered Muslims, but in fact they had rooms set aside in their comanderies for Muslims to pray.

Your version of Arab identity reminds me of the version I learned about in school - a version of history created by Arab nationalists at the start of the 20th Century as a lever to persuade Arabs they should have self-rule and should not tolerate subjugation under Turks or Europeans - which is fair enough but it doesn't mean the historical narrative is accurate. Similar narratives were common in Europe at the time - all English were really "Anglo-Saxons" rather than being Celto-Germanic, which is what we actually are; the French were all "Gauls" rather than a Latin-German-Gallic mix - at one point French linguists actually believe French was a Celtic language rather than a Latin one...

Same with Pan-Arabism, it doesn't really wash. Arabs come from Arabia, which is also where Arabic and Islam come from but the fact that the people in the Levant and Egypt and the Levant doesn't make them Arabs and it certainly doesn't mean they're all descended from Bedouin.

I wish Hax was here, he could explain this much better, but the basic point I am making is that people have lived on the Alluvial Plain and in the Levant, on the coast and around the Jordan, for as long as there have been Nomads in Arabia's interior, and at certain periods there were people in the cities but not in the desert.

Also, a lot of the things you probably think of as intrinsically "Arab" are not - Arabic writing comes from the name place as European and Levantine scripts, and is an adaptation of the latter; the Hijab and possibly even the Niqab have roots in Byzantine-Christian dress - see also Christian Nuns. The design of Mosques is also, fundamentally, derived from Byzantine Basilicae and particularly the Hagia Sophia.

On the the flip side - I found the "Coconut Arab" comment hilarious because so much of "Western" Culture is fundamentally Eastern and more specifically Levantine - for example:

Religion
Universities - and basically all learning.
Mathematics
Medicine - with some Greek and Roman input
Chemistry
Theology - partially
BEER!

I'm pretty sure I'm missing a couple, actually.

[Pannonian]

I have no idea what a nargila is. Do you guys actually call it that instead of shisha or are you a coconut Arab?

That term says more about the person who uses it than the person it's aimed at.

[AE Bravo]

It is, for example, common knowledge that we used to burn witches but no witch was ever burned in England, only heretics. It is common knowledge that the Templars were all zealous warriors who enthusiastically slaughtered Muslims, but in fact they had rooms set aside in their comanderies for Muslims to pray.

Oh whatddya know changing the subject.

Your version of Arab identity reminds me of the version I learned about in school - a version of history created by Arab nationalists at the start of the 20th Century as a lever to persuade Arabs they should have self-rule and should not tolerate subjugation under Turks or Europeans - which is fair enough but it doesn't mean the historical narrative is accurate. Similar narratives were common in Europe at the time - all English were really "Anglo-Saxons" rather than being Celto-Germanic, which is what we actually are; the French were all "Gauls" rather than a Latin-German-Gallic mix - at one point French linguists actually believe French was a Celtic language rather than a Latin one...

Need sources countering my sources besides your empty twist and turn words.

Same with Pan-Arabism, it doesn't really wash. Arabs come from Arabia, which is also where Arabic and Islam come from but the fact that the people in the Levant and Egypt and the Levant doesn't make them Arabs and it certainly doesn't mean they're all descended from Bedouin.

Bedouin =/= Arab. I said desert dwellers, and tribesmen Arabs that built civilizations. You said "marauding nomads" and didn't back it up after I gave rvg sources proving these nomads settled and moved as Arabs.

So you pour out all this info you had stored that could possibly place doubts on an issue set in stone. Bro, you are full of it. Give me a source that justifies your classification of Arabs as a static separate people of the Arabian Peninsula.

That term says more about the person who uses it than the person it's aimed at.

"You have your ways we have ours." Outtahere and take your politically correct hypocrisy with you.

[Pannonian]

"You have your ways we have ours." Outtahere and take your politically correct hypocrisy with you.

Over here, people who use terms like "coconut", "bounty bar" and "banana" are usually professional racism-hunters who are forever on the lookout for supposedly racist utterances to be outraged at, whilst being hypocritically racist themselves.

[AE Bravo]

Over here, people who use terms like "coconut", "bounty bar" and "banana" are usually professional racism-hunters who are forever on the lookout for supposedly racist utterances to be outraged at, whilst being hypocritically racist themselves.

Forreal? I guess thats how yall get down then, glad it doesn't spring over. :)

[Montmorency]

Dude, like forreal you gotta stop relying on neo-folk history.

Though to be fair, it seems to be accepted that there were some Arab migrations from the peninsula to Egypt and Mesopotamia in the 4th and 3rd millenniums, though the settlers who remained only maintained small minorities. For instance, see the early chapters of Albert Hourani's A History of the Arab Peoples (2010) and Fahd al-Semmari's (ed.) A History of the Arabian Peninsula (2010).

[AE Bravo]

If you can quote anything Hourani says in his book that contradicts the sources I posted I'd appreciate it. The other book is written by Saudi historians, if anyone should be accused of whitewashing or ultranationalism it's them not me.

Glad someone stepped up with some sources, I'm here to learn not 1up some anonymous geniuses. What made you think I'm relying on neo-folk history? The sources?

[AE Bravo]

http://www.royalhouseofghassan.org/history/

http://www.academia.edu/Documents/in/Ghassanids

https://books.google.com/books?id=js...sanids&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=6o...sanids&f=false

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ghassanid

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.p...=9780884023470

http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/...10803095850504

http://www.brepolsonline.net/doi/abs...journalCode=la

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379148/

/Ghassasina

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379148/

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oh whatddya know changing the subject.

Examples from other cultures.

Need sources countering my sources besides your empty twist and turn words.

I'll dig some up at some point but right now I'm using my brain and my understanding of migratory patters, settlement and the replacement of the elite by a specific ethnic groups that then imposes its culture on the subject people. This is a well documented phenomenon across the world, and it usually leaves cultural holdouts who are not only distinct within society but genetically more distinct too. So this is why Arabs have not made a large genetic impact within Egypt and why Copts are basically the same people at 2000 years ago.

The same is true of rvg's people, the Assyrian Christians.

Bedouin =/= Arab. I said desert dwellers, and tribesmen Arabs that built civilizations. You said "marauding nomads" and didn't back it up after I gave rvg sources proving these nomads settled and moved as Arabs.

They were Nomads and they marauded - this is a fact - it's how Islam became a major world religion. There's actually nowhere in the Old World Islam went except by Conquest.

So you pour out all this info you had stored that could possibly place doubts on an issue set in stone. Bro, you are full of it. Give me a source that justifies your classification of Arabs as a static separate people of the Arabian Peninsula.

Set in Stone? History? Even if its written down its not set in stone.

"You have your ways we have ours." Outtahere and take your politically correct hypocrisy with you.

"Coconut" is actually a racist slur invented by Afro-Caribbean to describe blacks who got on and got educated.

[Gilrandir]

that show how much ignorant of CH publications you are.
And your obsession to smear them racists obscene.

I really am. That is why I used the subjunctive mood and "what if" sentences. That is why the latter sentence is irrelevant. I just made some suppositions and your explanation shows that CH are/were not a magazine who mocks/ed ANY stereotypes and superstitions. They don't/didn't laugh at ANYTHING THAT COULD SEEM FUNNY. They were/are targeting the groups that they considered worth it. It is the arbitrariness of mockery objects they targeted that makes it biased.

I was offended by their comment on military and soldiers. And you know what, I accepted it as part of the rights I was defending. The right to think, to have an opinion and to express this opinion, even if I really disliked it.

So you have a right to be offended and others don't? You just said that their offense was nonexistent or was on a flimsy pretext. What I was trying to make you see is that EVERYONE has feelings that can be hurt by mocking something. And YOU are no judge to decide whether OTHERS were offended or not.

Now the reaction to the offense (there was an offense after all, was there?) is a different thing. Yours was the one expected from a European (an American would have probably sued them). The assassins' reaction was, to put it mildly, overreaction.

And my point through all this debate was: you (i.e. CH) knew that some people whose feelings were hurt were prone to violence; you (CH) had been under attack before. For God's sake DO SOMETHING TO PROTECT YOURSELF. Have a gun in your purse before you put on a mini-skirt to have a night stroll around Harlem.

[Pannonian]

"Coconut" is actually a racist slur invented by Afro-Caribbean to describe blacks who got on and got educated.

Coconut, Bounty bar: brown on the outside, white on the inside.
Banana: yellow on the outside, white on the inside.

Terms used by self-appointed guardians of the racial struggle to describe traitors to the cause (ie. anyone who doesn't agree with them). They tend to have quite a collection of insulting terms for whites as well.

[AE Bravo]

So this is why Arabs have not made a large genetic impact within Egypt and why Copts are basically the same people at 2000 years ago.

Actually things aren't/weren't as prejudiced as you may think in Egypt. It wasn't out of place for a Copt to marry a Muslim, although most of the time it was a women marrying a Muslim man. A number of Egyptian actors were married to Coptic Christians. We can agree that Egypt excluding the Sinai was an Arabized region, but the Levant has a clear stamp of Arabic ancestry.

They were Nomads and they marauded - this is a fact - it's how Islam became a major world religion. There's actually nowhere in the Old World Islam went except by Conquest.

Lets focus on Pre-Islam. I already told you that even shortly before Islam this is not an accurate way to describe things.

Now I'm really interested because you dismissed all those sources that describe Arabs as both settlers and marauders. Your understanding of migratory patterns pversimplifies and distorts history. Stop being a useless wordsmith.

[Montmorency]

Have a gun in your purse before you put on a mini-skirt to have a night stroll around Harlem.

Dumb sentence.

[AE Bravo]

Dumb sentence.

^Detached from the rest of the world or obviously hasn't been to Harlem. Best believe you need a gun in your purse. What is with you, guy?

Drag your butt down that mountain please. You're a nuisance in this thread.

[Montmorency]

I live in NYC buddy. Come up the mountain, you might learn a few things.

[AE Bravo]

Lets just say you were never at a ceelo game.