To Hijab or not to Hijab

[Montmorency]

Everything is reported.

Can you be more exact? On its face, what you say means that every legally-actionable episode that occurs within the jurisdiction of a given Arab state is reported.

In reality, most instances of, for example, mugging, pickpocketing, or minor fraud are not reported anywhere in the world, so that can't be the case.

What are you trying to say then?

[Pannonian]

Can you be more exact? On its face, what you say means that every legally-actionable episode that occurs within the jurisdiction of a given Arab state is reported.

In reality, most instances of, for example, mugging, pickpocketing, or minor fraud are not reported anywhere in the world, so that can't be the case.

What are you trying to say then?

He's trying to say that, as an ex-pat, he has an overly rosy picture of the country he left behind.

[AE Bravo]

Treason, sedition, rape, murder, embezzling, laundering, heists, political assassinations and even courts with no due process are openly revealed to the public. Say what you want about these "dictators" but they are known to tell it like it is. It's the bedouin way.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Treason, sedition, rape, murder, embezzling, laundering, heists, political assassinations and even courts with no due process are openly revealed to the public. Say what you want about these "dictators" but they are known to tell it like it is. It's the bedouin way.

Really?

So Assad fessed up to using chemical weapons on his own people?

Oh, wait, he's an Assyrian, isn't he - so he doesn't count.

What about the web of lies Gaddaffi span over the Libyan economy?

Anyway - in many states in the Middle East even non-Christians are required to cover their heads, so why shouldn't some Western states ban it?

[AE Bravo]

That was a response to comments made about GCC states. Assad and Gaddaffi aren't bedu. I should have been more clearer, was referring to the relatively progressive sheikhdoms.

Anyway - in many states in the Middle East even non-Christians are required to cover their heads, so why shouldn't some Western states ban it?

Because some of these western countries make big claims for themselves just like these backwards conservative Arab countries do. If you're on the better side of the spectrum there's no need to parallel their paranoia.

[Viking]

@Montmorency

Even if one accepts the idea that these refugees would have a high probability of causing the relevant states to disintegrate (which I don't), it is not given that having Europe accept them is the better alternative. If it were the better alternative, then we would have to expect that the countries in the ME over time gradually would become more stable.

Without such a promise, we would risk seeing streams of refugees from the ME arriving in Europe every now and then. Over decades or centuries, Europe could become a place no more stable than the ME itself.

[Husar]

Anyway - in many states in the Middle East even non-Christians are required to cover their heads, so why shouldn't some Western states ban it?

Where is the superiority of our ways if we make our ways just like their ways?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Where is the superiority of our ways if we make our ways just like their ways?

If it's OK for them to be barbarians why isn't it OK for us?

Personally, I would ban covering the face in public places but make it legal on the street - that way you can wear a scarf when it's cold but when you come inside you take it off.

Currently watching a documentary on this and what comes through is that the Muslim women don't appreciate that the face veil specifically is highly offensive to a lot of Britons. That's not to say that the violent attacks and verbal abuse are in any way justified, they're not, but it's clear the gulf of understanding is on both sides.

[Husar]

If it's OK for them to be barbarians why isn't it OK for us?

Who said it's okay? I want to welcome them to Germany if they are sick and tired of their dictatorships and the oppression. The hijab has little to do with that as long as they want to wear it.
And the more important question is, do you want to be a barbarian and live among them?

Personally, I would ban covering the face in public places but make it legal on the street - that way you can wear a scarf when it's cold but when you come inside you take it off.

Then I would also ban goth clothing, punk haircuts, not having hair at all and other clear symbols of people who obviously despise our mainstream societies and do not want to be part of them. And then we should burn all the books that criticize the mainstream society, jail all computer hackers and people who use encryption or passwords because we are an open society and the internet is a very public place.
And since I don't trust people who do ungodly things behind closed curtains, ban curtains, too.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Who said it's okay? I want to welcome them to Germany if they are sick and tired of their dictatorships and the oppression. The hijab has little to do with that as long as they want to wear it.
And the more important question is, do you want to be a barbarian and live among them?

Saudi Arabia - that's all I want to say.

Then I would also ban goth clothing, punk haircuts, not having hair at all and other clear symbols of people who obviously despise our mainstream societies and do not want to be part of them. And then we should burn all the books that criticize the mainstream society, jail all computer hackers and people who use encryption or passwords because we are an open society and the internet is a very public place.
And since I don't trust people who do ungodly things behind closed curtains, ban curtains, too.

Except I said banning covering the face - you can still see a Goth's face.

[Pannonian]

If it's OK for them to be barbarians why isn't it OK for us?

Personally, I would ban covering the face in public places but make it legal on the street - that way you can wear a scarf when it's cold but when you come inside you take it off.

Currently watching a documentary on this and what comes through is that the Muslim women don't appreciate that the face veil specifically is highly offensive to a lot of Britons. That's not to say that the violent attacks and verbal abuse are in any way justified, they're not, but it's clear the gulf of understanding is on both sides.

I've worn a balaclava outside when it was really, really cold. As soon as I was inside, I took it off. Same with the scarf raised to cover the nose. Always combined with thick gloves and lots of layers of clothing. All of which tended to be sympathetically laughed at by onlookers, who recognised the cold but were perhaps not quite so extremely affected.

Who said it's okay? I want to welcome them to Germany if they are sick and tired of their dictatorships and the oppression. The hijab has little to do with that as long as they want to wear it.
And the more important question is, do you want to be a barbarian and live among them?

Then I would also ban goth clothing, punk haircuts, not having hair at all and other clear symbols of people who obviously despise our mainstream societies and do not want to be part of them. And then we should burn all the books that criticize the mainstream society, jail all computer hackers and people who use encryption or passwords because we are an open society and the internet is a very public place.
And since I don't trust people who do ungodly things behind closed curtains, ban curtains, too.

Some things fit the definition of being socially undesirable, but since they grew up here, they get more of a pass (although hoodies are synonymous with juvenile delinquents, to the point of being satirised in Hot Fuzz). If these things are socially undesirable and they've been imported here, why give them this free pass? It's not as though our society makes huge demands of them to fit in.

[AE Bravo]

If it's OK for them to be barbarians why isn't it OK for us?

First you started out by saying "some European countries" and now it's "us." So which is it? It's not ok for anyone, they can all go to hell.

Saudi Arabia - that's all I want to say.

But that is a hellhole, do you mean you'd like to be a hole too?

Not a good look to point your finger at the world's anus pit and say "but they're doing it too!"

[Kadagar_AV]

First you started out by saying "some European countries" and now it's "us." So which is it? It's not ok for anyone, they can all go to hell.

But that is a hellhole, do you mean you'd like to be a hole too?

Not a good look to point your finger at the world's anus pit and say "but they're doing it too!"

Retort:

Yes, it is a hellhole.

I can agree with you, that it is (among) the worlds anuses.

However, what, OH WHAT, make you think we in the west have a better ability to care for African/Arabic internal strife and religious needs, than Saudi Arabia?



How come Muslim migrants are flocking to Sweden, and not Saudi Arabia?

You don't exactly need a fish under your nose to smell something fishy.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Why?
Do you think it's okay if they are barbarians and enforce that on some of their citizens or what is your point?

No, but I think it's worth pointing out that we're happy to traffic with them, despite it being a terrible place for women.

I thought it was part of your wider point about people who do not want to fit in, but maybe it wasn't or you and Pannonian have become one in my mind. ;)

No, it was about my specific point that Muslims, specifically, do not share our cultural mores. That is a big problem if they want to live in our society. Apparently Americans don't share our cultural mores either - but that's a different question.

First you started out by saying "some European countries" and now it's "us." So which is it? It's not ok for anyone, they can all go to hell.

Banning a viel in public makes the country "hell"? Please. Now, I'll happily admit I don't understand modern Islamic culture - it looks universally crap compared to, say, 12th Century Islamic culture - but the point is very simple - that people who live in Europe should conform to a basic level of common courtesy and in my opinion covering the face in public violates that very basic level of courtesy.

This is why Muslim women are attacked on the street when they wear the veil - because a significant number of Europeans, and African Christians, find it highly offensive that they refuse to show their faces in public.

Personally I think it's ostentatious piety, divisive, and arrogant - and I think it poses a real problem from a security point of view. What's interesting is that it has become more popular int he last two decades, in fact as Islamic terrorism has become more of a problem more and more Muslim women have gone from bear-headed to scarf, to Hijab, to Niqab. There was even a girl, in full Niqab, talking about how everyone reacted when her mother came to pick her up from school the first time wearing a Hijab.

The. First. Time. So, for a few decades this woman was apparently fine with having her head uncovered, then suddenly one day she starts to cover it in public, and that then provokes a reaction. Now, is it the right reaction? No, it is not, but it's an understandable one because many of these woman have recently made a choice to start dressing like they live in the Middle East and not Europe and that's a deliberate statement of separation.

But that is a hellhole, do you mean you'd like to be a hole too?

Not a good look to point your finger at the world's anus pit and say "but they're doing it too!"

See above - you can't have morals and traffic with the Devil, it doesn't wash.

[Pannonian]

First you started out by saying "some European countries" and now it's "us." So which is it? It's not ok for anyone, they can all go to hell.

But that is a hellhole, do you mean you'd like to be a hole too?

Not a good look to point your finger at the world's anus pit and say "but they're doing it too!"

I'd rather point to the world's anus pit and say, let them stew in their own hell hole. I want nothing to do with them whatsoever. They can practise cannibalism or anything else they want for all I care. As long as they don't do it over here. Anyone who thinks it's ok to bring these cultural features over here against our objections can bugger off back whence they came.