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Thread: Our Lord, J.C.

  1. #91
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Sorry Rory, I got to cut in here what you just said is a misnomer. The reason the NHS cannot make 'a profit' is not because the private is better, it frankly isn't, as the NHS does it for significantly cheaper, but because money for NHS is paid upfront from taxes, and is providing a service, whilst the private will charge an individual for a service at above the cost of service. The profit in this regard 'cannot make a profit' but we as members of society do get our 'profit' in terms of having good quality healthcare which is essentially 'free' at use and don't need to worry about getting slapped with £50000 bill for a couple of days in A&E after an accident like in the USA.
    Never said the private sector is better. Private hospitals are doing many operations on NHS patients for NHS tarrifs. Is that because they suddenly have a change of heart and are doing work pro bono? That this is some clever PR ruse? No - they can make a profit on the elective surgery by doing things more efficiently than the NHS does.

    How?

    Depends on the hospital . But some things I have seen

    NHS in an NHS hospital the entire theatre staff bieng paid until 8.30pm at night when all elective surgery finished at 5.30 - yes of course there needs to be facilities for emergency surgery - but identical numbers of staff as during the day? No one had noticed that this was happening for years. No one cared.

    The theatre stopped working for several hours since they were short of a porter to get the next patient down - so about 10 people twiddle their thumbs for a few hours.

    Get this level of wastage happening on a regular basis and guess what? The cost per completed operation goes up. Others who manage to employ enough porters to ensure the extremely expensive theatres are working to capacity get through more work.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  2. #92
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    What stops one from rewarding innovation in a non-profit system? The reward for the doctor is just another expense and not a profit. Research costs are not profit. The only thing that won't happen is that the system needs to cater to investors (sometimes perhaps even the pension funds of the patients...) who have their own ROI in mind instead of what's best for the patients.
    From experience - the ethos of the system. Everyone has nice big final salary pensions. There isn't anything to gain from thinking outside the structure and there is a risk of not getting one's statutory promotion for time served.

    Who in a hospital has what is best for the patient in mind? Everyone wants to get paid and get home with as little grief as possible. Whistle blowers can have their career wrecked for decades. Reporting a mistake is an admission of guilt. Keep one's head down and take the pay.

    There's no need to attract patients - they have no choice but to go to the hospital regardless of what state it is in - many areas there is no other hospital and the good ones often have no ability or desire to expand. If you go bust the central government will wave a magic wand all all the debts disappear and things continue as before.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Never said the private sector is better. Private hospitals are doing many operations on NHS patients for NHS tarrifs. Is that because they suddenly have a change of heart and are doing work pro bono? That this is some clever PR ruse? No - they can make a profit on the elective surgery by doing things more efficiently than the NHS does.
    This is to cover the demand needed to run private surgeries, so they take work at cut-price because they can get something for it and as you said yourself, the solve private sector thumb twiddling by having people to operate on during a lull. There is even the reverse happening where BUPA rents out NHS surgeries at higher than NHS costs to get their clients seen during said lull periods.

    The same even happens in Nursing Homes, private homes charge twice the rate for private funded, but they take on council funded clients to make up numbers because having lower paid in beds is better than having 5 empty beds. It is the same line of thought.

    It is economics. They only accept the work because they have to and it isn't simply for massive profits.
    Last edited by Beskar; 09-23-2015 at 21:51.
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  4. #94
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    They have to??!? An operating theatre is a room with some equipment in it. The main costs are the staff. If they have no work they'll not have the staff. NHS contracts going to private hospitals is relatively recent. The private hospitals were profitable before this ever started.

    The private hospitals are good at finding ways of making more profit such as taking contracts for NHS work as opposed to doing nothing and idly sit around which is what the NHS is good at doing since no one can be bothered to try and do anything better. But if there was no money in it they'd just not have operations being performed.

    The money nursing homes get from the council is decreasing in real terms for years. Many would go to the wall without fleecing private residents - and only by doing so do they manage to keep going. Their business model assumed higher levels of funding and that is why some are increasingly cutting corners or folding altogether.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    I think the NHS suffers from a lack of goodwill. Look at Rory - he's the kind of guy they have working for them, and he's so disillusioned.

    I reckon Corbyn can't fix that.
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  6. #96

    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    I think the NHS suffers from a lack of goodwill. Look at Rory - he's the kind of guy they have working for them, and he's so disillusioned.

    I reckon Corbyn can't fix that.
    Maybe we need more of him.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Maybe we need more of him.
    I know what you mean, and I agree, but I don't think Corbyn is quite what people think he is. Or, to be more precise I DO think he's a genuinely principles man but I suspect his principles are subtly different than what people imagine they are.

    I'm alluding to Michael Foot here - there was quite a bit of fuss a few years ago:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/c...ful-idiot.html

    Consider - Corbyn is friendly towards Russia and in favour of unilateral Nuclear Disarmment despite what happened to Ukraine, at the instigation of Russia. That thought process is not entirely logical.
    Last edited by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus; 09-24-2015 at 01:31.
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    I, uh, was referring to (more of) Rory. So, like, kind of the opposite, maybe.

    /awkward/
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    I, uh, was referring to (more of) Rory. So, like, kind of the opposite, maybe.

    /awkward/
    Rory is a cynic, like most people - and he freely said several years ago that he gave the NHS the minimum number of years after training, then went private to earn some real money and not have to deal with the red tape.

    Fair enough but that's no help to my Nan next time she's sick.
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  10. #100
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    Thatcher and subsequent governments shifted our national culture. It became perfectly correct to think entirely in terms of ones own benefit.

    Cameron talked about the Big Society - but it was hot air. Meaningless. Especially in the context of falling wages, steady levels of unemployment, demonisation of the sick and the blaming of all society's ills on the poorest.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Rory is a cynic, like most people - and he freely said several years ago that he gave the NHS the minimum number of years after training, then went private to earn some real money and not have to deal with the red tape.

    Fair enough but that's no help to my Nan next time she's sick.
    You do realise that GPs and indeed all hospital doctors get a Final Salary pension and retire at 60? I will get less for what I currently do - but I like doing it.

    I am involved in the process of getting new drugs to patients. Unless your Nan would rather there were no treatments I suggest I am as much a part of the care as the people who made the beds, made the surgical equipment etc.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
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  12. #102
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    Thatcher and subsequent governments shifted our national culture. It became perfectly correct to think entirely in terms of ones own benefit.

    Cameron talked about the Big Society - but it was hot air. Meaningless. Especially in the context of falling wages, steady levels of unemployment, demonisation of the sick and the blaming of all society's ills on the poorest.
    As was often said, Thatcher moved the unemployed out of the factories given the inefficiency of British Industry.

    Before Thatcher we had the Social Solidarity of a decade of strikes, 3 day week and having to go to the IMF for a bailout. Yeah, everything was fine before Thatcher ruined it...

    The world is more connected. Machines can do more and more things that previously we needed people to do. The internet is allowing more and more jobs to be moved abroad - I don't care whether the call centre / finance department / procurement is in the UK or elsewhere as long as it works. Increasingly things can be created abroad and brought over by ever more efficient ships. People don't buy local, they generally buy the best value - and that is often abroad.

    Blair gave us the multicultural mix we have. Hardly surprising we do not have one Big Society, but several Small Societies often living seperate lives with seperate cultures next to each other.


    Calling me a cynic is nice and simple, isn't it? Ignore what I say since what I say is what happens.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  13. #103
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    It is ever popular for Thatcherites to compare the very worst elements/moments of what came before, with cherry picked highlights of what came after. There were numerous issues with British economy and society in the 70s, but to claim the only medicine was what in the end happened is to fall into a common heuristic - hindsight bias.

    She removed the industrial base and sold the country to the city. 95% of the financial exchanges in the city are of no consequence to anyone but city funds. It's a giant game of poker among the richest companies in the world.

    As for efficiency, I don't care that much about that. We live on a planet, alone in space. We need to find a way of existing equitably. The current system benefits those with the most power and loudest voices. It reminds me of the words of Douglas Adams on the golden era of the Galaxy - "no-one was poor, at least no-one that mattered".

    I'm not a big one for memes, but this sums up my view on it all. There is a mind shift that needs to occur dramatically. We have gone from being a species that tried to achieve things, to one that justifies self enrichment at the cost of all else, and somehow feels morally right for doing so.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    You are equally guilty of hindsight bias.

    The Industry was clearly not working - the industry was bieng out-competed by those abroad in terms of both cost but especially quality. On the times where the strikes weren't occurring of course. And the rampant inflation since it was a game where Unions in turn demanded more money to do their jobs.

    The concept of the City was a good idea initially - being able to raise money for real businesses, hedge losses against others or future costs. But in the last 200 years things have "blossomed" to more and more weird things that are in essence

    "Poverty" in the UK is defined as the family income bieng 60% of the UK average which means the insanity that if one billionaire were to reside in the UK the number in "poverty" would increase!!! It has nothing to do with the true need of anyone.

    Most people in the world still live on less that £10 a day. EVERYONE in the UK has MASSIVELY more than average - not even the most Left Wing government has truly tried to be fair to all. We still have Union bosses on salaries over £100k who feel justified in living in council houses with subsidised rent.

    Yes, that is an example of the best altruism and the worst avarice. The number of billionaires giving away vast amounts of their wealth are also occurring and there are many examples of abuse in the past as a species we are not getting better or worse.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
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    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Y"Poverty" in the UK is defined as the family income bieng 60% of the UK average which means the insanity that if one billionaire were to reside in the UK the number in "poverty" would increase!!! It has nothing to do with the true need of anyone.
    Which is why people use median income rather than arithmetic mean...
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    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    The bizzare logic of "you can't be bad if someone is worse"
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    Meanwhile, back in the jungle!

    Better start stocking up on yer burgers and bangers lads.....
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    The bizzare logic of "you can't be bad if someone is worse"
    Your logic - not mine.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post

    ... not even the most Left Wing government has truly tried to be fair to all. We still have Union bosses on salaries over £100k who feel justified in living in council houses with subsidised rent.
    This is bizzare on a number of fronts. I have a glut of possible responses, so much so that I don't know where to start with unpicking.

    How many union bosses both live in subsidised accommodation and have 6 figure salaries? Probably about 3 in the whole country. And why are we even talking about union bosses? What is this, 1978? There are city men by the thousand who earn millions and hold their money offshore with no comment from you. But a union boss on a good salary, paying income tax, is beyond the pale. I think this is classic English class snobbery. How dare the oiks get so uppish.

    The biggest recipient of discounted housing are the wealthy. How many ex council houses in Chelsea or Camden are now owned by rich people? How about those developments specifically for key workers that are now all owned by private landlords making fat profits?
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Your logic - not mine.

    Most people in the world still live on less that £10 a day. EVERYONE in the UK has MASSIVELY more than average
    6000th post slap down!
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    6000th post slap down!

    Congrats

    But how about this - some people in "poverty" have more than one TV that they can afford to replace every few years, multiple games consoles and computers.

    As usual you're both right - but you're wrong about Thatcher, she was the symptom not the cause and Cameron tried various community level initiatives to jump start local businesses etc., they were ignored and then shelved.
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    "Are you refusing to condemn the I.R.A?"

    *click*

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02z3x45
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

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  23. #113
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    He is saying that he condemns both side for the use of violence.
    Listing to your link... It is useful.
    Even if the questioner tries to show him as a IRA supporter, try to listen to the answer, not the question...
    After 4 times, I understand the click.

    Do you condemn the the use of force by the British Arm Forces? Do you condemn the Protestants terrorism? Funny that these question are never asked to rightist politicians.

    Remember what was to be a Catholic in Northern Ireland?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21959048

    http://www.irlandinit-hd.de/main_chap/need.htm

    "Why else would the catholics be so inflexible and insist on using the front door to their school?" If you would bar my children to go to school by the front door, I would put bombs in the Country helping the ones doing so. The they don't care of my children, why should I care of their and them?
    So, Corbyn is condemning both sides, rightly, as it should have been resolved politically, before any violence became the only way to communicate.
    Last edited by Brenus; 09-26-2015 at 14:13.
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    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
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  24. #114
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    It is a sign of how completely the right have controlled and defined the political narrative that reasonable views are vilified as extreme, and extreme views are considered orthodoxy.

    The hypocrisy is so frustrating. The Thatcher government negotiated a ceasefire with the IRA while claiming such a thing was unthinkable. And long after it has happened they pretend to hold some moral high ground to maintain their unionist parliamentary support (while they accuse labour and the SNP of the same thing.. More tedious hypocrisy).
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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  25. #115
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    If you would bar my children to go to school by the front door, I would put bombs in the Country helping the ones doing so. The they don't care of my children, why should I care of their and them?.
    Bit of a disproprtionate response to refusal of entry there.
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  26. #116
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    It is a sign of how completely the right have controlled and defined the political narrative that reasonable views are vilified as extreme, and extreme views are considered orthodoxy.

    The hypocrisy is so frustrating. The Thatcher government negotiated a ceasefire with the IRA while claiming such a thing was unthinkable. And long after it has happened they pretend to hold some moral high ground to maintain their unionist parliamentary support (while they accuse labour and the SNP of the same thing.. More tedious hypocrisy).
    The government of a country has a right, and indeed responsibility, to do the unpleasant and distasteful for the interests of the country. Why was a backbench MP getting up to what Corbyn was getting up to? What's his excuse?

  27. #117
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    I think the NHS suffers from a lack of goodwill. Look at Rory - he's the kind of guy they have working for them, and he's so disillusioned.
    I am also working for the NHS, but I know you already consider me disillusioned too.
    Days since the Apocalypse began
    "We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
    "Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."

  28. #118
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The government of a country has a right, and indeed responsibility, to do the unpleasant and distasteful for the interests of the country. Why was a backbench MP getting up to what Corbyn was getting up to? What's his excuse?
    Honesty?
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  29. #119
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    Honesty?
    Why was a backbench MP getting involved with so many matters outside his constituency, and even outside the country? What has Islington North to do with Northern Ireland, Palestine, Iran, Russia, and all the other things that Corbyn has got involved with?

  30. #120
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Lord, J.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Why was a backbench MP getting involved with so many matters outside his constituency, and even outside the country? What has Islington North to do with Northern Ireland, Palestine, Iran, Russia, and all the other things that Corbyn has got involved with?
    MPs are supposed to blend local advocacy with an active involvement and interest in wider foreign, international and domestic policy.

    Surely you know that?
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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