egalitarianism

[Kadagar_AV]

I so often meet left leaning people with arguments like: "Because you were lucky to be borne there" or "Because you happened to be borne that way".

Honestly speaking, I do not understand this argument.



Do they have some image of souls floating around, then someone gets borne, and they roll a dice to see what soul will inherit the body? And then it's just happenstance where they end up?




In MY world, we are a direct offspring of our mother and our father. I wasn't lucky to be borne as me, I am a direct result of the genetical inheritance of the 2 people who created me.

I am not "lucky" to have been borne where I am, I have had generations of people doing their damned best to create the best possible outcome for their children, thus building a functional state.


Is this perspective out of view? I have never, ever, understood the "luck" factor in it all... It's not like my dad accidently stumbled and fell into my mother while the souls up in heaven rolled dice as to who would take the body.

[Montmorency]

Yes, of course you are the epitome of the Universe. We know.

[Kadagar_AV]

Yes, of course you are the epitome of the Universe. We know.

Yes, THAT was the point of the thread. Now we solved it for YOU, let's get others to discuss it shall we.

[Beskar]

Well, many beliefs do see it as souls floating around to inherit bodies, randomly taking the new one in line (in some beliefs, this includes animals/all life).

The luck factor is basically that you didn't choose to be born and raised in Sweden for example, so if someone else didn't have the same equal opportunity as you due to the social-cultural conditions, it doesn't make them 'less human' than you, and if the 'souls' were reversed, you would possibly turn out very similar to them.

But ultimately, soul or not, it is about promoting greater equal opportunities across the world, giving everyone a fair and good start in life, and that working together, we could give someone less fortunate due to the vagina they popped out of, a similar good experience to you growing up.

[Kadagar_AV]

Well, many beliefs do see it as souls floating around to inherit bodies, randomly taking the new one in line (in some beliefs, this includes animals/all life).

The luck factor is basically that you didn't choose to be born and raised in Sweden for example, so if someone else didn't have the same equal opportunity as you due to the social-cultural conditions, it doesn't make them 'less human' than you, and if the 'souls' were reversed, you would possibly turn out very similar to them.

But ultimately, soul or not, it is about promoting greater equal opportunities across the world, giving everyone a fair and good start in life, and that working together, we could give someone less fortunate due to the vagina they popped out of, a similar good experience to you growing up.

Absolutely, I agree.


However, before we start to think of how we can bind nations together, we need to ABSOLUTELY VEHEMENTLY argue against the failed chain of taught that we are all equal, because we are not.

We should all be respected, sure, that is why I am vegetarian... But respected and equal is not the same thing.

Black people right now are NOT equal on the work market in Sweden, as an example.

So the more the "good" people claim we are all equal, the more we will see racial riots.


HELLO, what is it that we see all over right now?




I say blacks are problematic to integrate to my society because THEY ARE PROBLEMATIC TO INTEGRATE INTO MY SOCIETY.


I don't hate them, I don't wish them any ill... By all means, if I can I will help.

But let's skip the post WWII trauma where every observance of cultural or genetical difference is = BLOODY RACISM, shall we?




If for no other reason to create a better world, based on facts, not ideologies.

[Montmorency]

Hey, it's not your society. You can pack your bags along with the migrants.

[AE Bravo]

[Kadagar_AV]

Hey, it's not your society. You can pack your bags along with the migrants.

To whom does it belong if not for people who built it and their offspring?

Thank you for your deep and extremely thoughtful contribution to this thread.

[Tuuvi]

And here I thought we were going to have a thread about something other than race differences and immigrants. Oh well.

[Hooahguy]

Just reminding folks to keep it civil.

/modmode


I think its an interesting concept. On one hand yes, my parents have done their best to give me the best life they could. But on the other hand, I feel lucky that my consciousness, or as some might see it, my soul, was given to me. It could have been given to anyone else, but it was given to me in my certain circumstances, with all the benefits and challenges that being me gives. So I think this question is a more spiritual one than anything else.

[Montmorency]

To whom does it belong if not for people who built it and their offspring?

Reality is not an inheritance.

[Brandy Blue]

Well, I'm not sure why you are asking us what these people mean instead of asking one of them, but here goes.

Depending on context, it could mean:

1: Be thankful to your ancestors and proud of what they accomplished. Imitate their diligence.

2: You belong to a "have" group. Be aware that many people belong to "have not" groups and can do nothing about it because there's no point in trying to build a better life if whatever progress you make will be stolen or destroyed by the next group of rebel troops or government solders that comes along. So have sympathy for those who cannot enjoy the benefits of their ancestors' hard work or pass on anything to their children, and help them if you can.

3: Boy, are you clueless. (No offense, Kad. I also don't have a clue what it is like to return to my village only to find out that everyone was killed horribly while I was gone. Us first worlders usually don't.)

Calling you lucky may be a shorter way (or a more tactful way) of saying one of these things. Or something else.

[CrossLOPER]

understood the "luck" factor in it all

Try explaining this concept to an ISIS sex slave.

[Myth]

Societies where people strive to work hard and excell do better. Examples: Japan, Germany, Scandinavia. Societies where people are lazy and try to skimp on work do worse. Examples: African countries, Southern Italy, Spain, Greece, Bulgaria.

It's our own damn fault for not arbeiten-ing more.

But I didn't choose to be born with an average height and build. I'm jealous of Kad's glorious viking genes, for real. And unlike other modern trending folks, I'll not shout my throat off at women because they're "discriminating me" if they don't choose to immediately jump into bed with me if there's a 185 cm blond haired, muscled dude next to me on the bar. It is what it is.

[Papewaio]

Surely some of that cultural wealth was inherited from the Vikings...

[Fragony]

Give it up Kads, you can't reason with someone who has made up it's mind, the outcome of an equation will never be at stake as the sum will just be altered to get the same results. There is no intellectual integrity to be found in issues that are playing with toes too much.

[AE Bravo]

You mean stepping on toes.

I like that kadagar is openly racist though, assuming he conducts himself the same way in real life. It's better that we are all clear about who carries this, let yourselves be known.

[Fragony]

Well if you stick to defenitions I am one as well, as I believe there are differences that might be genetic. There is no hostility in that though. Racism is a hijacked term that has nothing to do with real considerations, it's lazyness imho to disregard racial theory just because the idea doesn't suit you; that there are in fact differences

edit, you deserve more explanation on why I think so; even third-generation immigrants are hopelessly behind their Dutch compatriots, in just about eveything. It's not not that they aren't getting any chanced to succeed, they are just as addicted to the idea that it isn't their fault as the multiculti-industry is. But it isn't the fault of the average Joe that they are just not good enough. Like feminists screaming for top-positions they are only a nuisance. That is not an opinion or a position, that is just how it works.

[Gilrandir]

Well, many beliefs do see it as souls floating around to inherit bodies, randomly taking the new one in line (in some beliefs, this includes animals/all life).

There is a theory that the choice of bodies is not random. Souls are distributed their bodily shapes with some purpose - mostly to atone for what they have done in their previous life or to learn something which they failed to learn back then.

Societies where people strive to work hard and excell do better. Examples: Japan, Germany, Scandinavia. Societies where people are lazy and try to skimp on work do worse. Examples: African countries, Southern Italy, Spain, Greece, Bulgaria.

It's our own damn fault for not arbeiten-ing more.

Doesn't always work that way. Ukrainians have always been hard workers, and they still are. Many work abroad doing underpaid menial jobs to support their family in Ukraine. In spite of this Ukraine is doing much worse than Spain or Italy, even Southern.

[Montmorency]

It isn't about "hard" or "smart" work, but geography and the state of international technology and economy.

4000 years ago, 2000 years ago, and yes, even today.

[Hooahguy]

Doesn't always work that way. Ukrainians have always been hard workers, and they still are. Many work abroad doing underpaid menial jobs to support their family in Ukraine. In spite of this Ukraine is doing much worse than Spain or Italy, even Southern.

It isn't about "hard" or "smart" work, but geography and the state of international technology and economy.

4000 years ago, 2000 years ago, and yes, even today.

I think its kinda both. On one hand societies that thrive do so through their own hard work but also with some luck. The Ukrainians for example have the misfortune of being hit over the head numerous times throughout history, so its the sad truth that they historically havent done too well. Same with the Polish, who are just now emerging as a new regional power on their own, but still need the assistance of the EU to really develop. I imagine that one day they will be a very big player on the world stage. Maybe not as much as Germany but perhaps larger than some others that one would usually think of when they think of regional powers.

But on the other hand, some societies dont do so well all the time even when handed everything. Not saying that the French are inherently lazy, but Ive read in a number of accounts from soldiers in WW2 that the Germans would move to clean up the rubble immediately after the fighting ended whereas the French still had rubble lying around from D-Day many months after France was liberated. Maybe this was a temporary thing, borne out of the crippling war. Maybe they were just down on their luck. Who knows really.

[Husar]

Well if you stick to defenitions I am one as well, as I believe there are differences that might be genetic. There is no hostility in that though. Racism is a hijacked term that has nothing to do with real considerations, it's lazyness imho to disregard racial theory just because the idea doesn't suit you; that there are in fact differences

edit, you deserve more explanation on why I think so; even third-generation immigrants are hopelessly behind their Dutch compatriots, in just about eveything. It's not not that they aren't getting any chanced to succeed, they are just as addicted to the idea that it isn't their fault as the multiculti-industry is. But it isn't the fault of the average Joe that they are just not good enough. Like feminists screaming for top-positions they are only a nuisance. That is not an opinion or a position, that is just how it works.

It is racist if you make up genetic differences that do not exist other than in 'science' linked on stormfront.
It's racist if you ignore or discard all other considerations and always. return to genetic or otherwise inherent differences because 'es muss sein'. It's exactly the kind of zeal that you always ascribe to the multiculturals. If you fail to see other reasons why third generation immigrants may not perform well then it is probably because you don't want to see them. Can you explain in detail why the differences can only be genetic? Can you explain why factors such as poverty have no relevance? Can you show that natives from the same neighborhoods have improved a lot in the same timeframe? All you have is a hunch that you turn into a certainty and then call everyone else a denier, that's truthiness, not truth.

[Montmorency]

But on the other hand, some societies dont do so well all the time even when handed everything. Not saying that the French are inherently lazy, but Ive read in a number of accounts from soldiers in WW2 that the Germans would move to clean up the rubble immediately after the fighting ended whereas the French still had rubble lying around from D-Day many months after France was liberated. Maybe this was a temporary thing, borne out of the crippling war. Maybe they were just down on their luck. Who knows really.

The thing is, what does that have to do with work ethic per se?

This was true throughout all European countries devastated by the war, even the UK and Germany. How does it testify to anything in particular? Some regions within single countries were hit worse than others, some had smaller local workforces or allocated funds, some had higher levels of undetonated munitions than others, some had a stronger local economic base than others.

And through it all it's still not clear what the connection to "work" is...

[AE Bravo]

It is racist if you make up genetic differences that do not exist other than in 'science' linked on stormfront.
It's racist if you ignore or discard all other considerations and always. return to genetic or otherwise inherent differences because 'es muss sein'. It's exactly the kind of zeal that you always ascribe to the multiculturals. If you fail to see other reasons why third generation immigrants may not perform well then it is probably because you don't want to see them. Can you explain in detail why the differences can only be genetic? Can you explain why factors such as poverty have no relevance? Can you show that natives from the same neighborhoods have improved a lot in the same timeframe? All you have is a hunch that you turn into a certainty and then call everyone else a denier, that's truthiness, not truth.

Gotta love them truth bombs.

Think about what you're saying for once gents.

[Beskar]

we need to ABSOLUTELY VEHEMENTLY argue against the failed chain of taught that we are all equal, because we are not.

Forgive me for quoting fiction, but it seems like along this train of thought:
"All men ... are NOT created equal! Some are born swifter afoot, some with greater beauty, some are born into poverty and others born sick and feeble. Both in birth and upbringing, in sheer scope of ability every human is inherently different; Yes that is why people discriminate against one another, which is why there is struggle, competition and the unfaltering march of progress. Inequality is not wrong, equality is."

The problem between equality as a concept and 'hard equality' is known. Equality as a concept refers to equality of access generally in a broad meritocratic way. That being, if you're the best for that job you are applying for, you get it, regardless of disability, sex, race, and so on.

To explain to this in a relating manner, would you think it is acceptable for that high-flying ski-ing job you applied for, which you was genuinely the best applicant for, to refuse you because of your kadagarism? You're correct, you are not a clone of every candidate, but equality is the concept of a fair and just society where people are not discriminated against illogically. Not a rally-call for blanket uniformity. It is having the basic rights to dignity and life.

So with my view on equality? You should get that Ski-job. Now, lets replace 'Kad with Not Kad' and 'kadagarism with Black', should the black job applicant be refused even though he is clearly best experienced for the job?

We should all be respected, sure,... But respected and equal is not the same thing.

Depends on concepts being used. This can fall into a trap as people are debating with different schema. Part of being equal is to be treated with respect, but being treated simply with respect is not equality. So they are linked.

Black people right now are NOT equal on the work market in Sweden, as an example.

Then why is this? Is it due to populations not having similar skill level due to lack of opportunity to back at their old homeland? Is it because they are generally poorer than average Swede in areas which are not 'the best' which continues to create an uneven playing field? There are many different answers and possibilities, and generally never "because they have more melanin." even if you try to associate tanned-bimbos as evidence to the contrary.

So the more the "good" people claim we are all equal, the more we will see racial riots.

Racial riots generally occur because people are not treated fairly or equally. Is your objection because 'good people' shouldn't implant ideas that these 'not-Kad' are not inferior and shouldn't expect to be equal to a 'Kad', or do you see some bizarre association where people trying to promote equality somehow causes division and racial tensions?

[Fragony]

It is racist if you make up genetic differences that do not exist other than in 'science' linked on stormfront.
It's racist if you ignore or discard all other considerations and always. return to genetic or otherwise inherent differences because 'es muss sein'. It's exactly the kind of zeal that you always ascribe to the multiculturals. If you fail to see other reasons why third generation immigrants may not perform well then it is probably because you don't want to see them. Can you explain in detail why the differences can only be genetic? Can you explain why factors such as poverty have no relevance? Can you show that natives from the same neighborhoods have improved a lot in the same timeframe? All you have is a hunch that you turn into a certainty and then call everyone else a denier, that's truthiness, not truth.

My bed would be pretty empty if I were what you are suggesting I am. Stormfront? Hate to say it to you Hussie but you, I like you and I take offence because of that.

If I get another insuniation like that I am leaving as well.

edit, as matter of fact I just did, bye was fun

[Beskar]

To be fair, genetic differences can result in 'sub-optimum' outcomes, but the problem with this is that it puts too much emphasis on 'being the very best' and being honest, do we need to be the 'very best' ? Let's change it up with examples, there are things Hooahguy is better than me at, there are things I am better than him at. Does this make Hooahguy or me 'inferior' in a condescending sense? Our differences don't stop us from being productive members of our societies.

I am going to be anecdotal here, but I am going to give an example of someone I know with Down Syndrome. As you may know, people with Down Syndrome really do roll unlucky on the genetics chart, typically demonstrating learning difficulties and integration in society.

'Jack' (pseudonym) was born with Down Syndrome in 1992, he struggled through mainstream schooling, often being in the extra development classes. He was bullied and told he would be a burden to society and he will amount to nothing. However, Jack's story demonstrates quite the opposite, once he finished school with barely any GCSE's, he was thrown into the world of work. After struggling to get hired due to obvious discrimination, he managed to enrol into a Super Market through an equality scheme. Here he is a sales representative, he does work welcoming people in the store, he often shows them to their products, finding out if any are in stock around the back if they are not on the shelves, and he is often helping customers pack the groceries in bags during busy periods to speed up times at checkouts. He is known for his punctuality in the work place, being very friendly and approachable to customers and staff alike, receiving various customer rewards for his service.

Whilst that sounds like a heartfelt story, this is actually backed up economically too, rather than simply a 'pat on the back'. When he was enrolled through the scheme, the government subsided his placement jointly with the supermarket chain. After a couple of months, he become a fully paid member of the store even though they didn't have to. A year later, he is now one of the highest paid (probably highest) sales representatives in the area, because the chain is actually concerned about other stores stealing him and really want to keep him!

He will probably never be able to get into management, or be the 'best of the best in rocket science', but this is someone who was dealt a bad hand genetically, penalised for such, but when given the opportunity to prove themselves, did so in spades, showing they are the best in what they do.

So I don't know, I believe in equality, I believe that people like Jack has opportunities to be equal, for Jack to demonstrate not only he is 'a equal member of our society' but also be allowed to demonstrate that is he one of the best examples of what our society has to offer.

I guess could always go the argument of his oppressors: "Jack is worthless, better if he was not born", but honestly? I am personally glad someone like Jack was born, I rather have someone with his talents and warm friendly deposition than one of those 'haters'.

Edit:
I was actually remembered that I saw a video like this too with examples of people like Jack.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Husar]

My bed would be pretty empty if I were what you are suggesting I am. Stormfront? Hate to say it to you Hussie but you, I like you and I take offence because of that.

If I get another insuniation like that I am leaving as well.

edit, as matter of fact I just did, bye was fun

Sometimes you just read too much into things. But yeah, some racial theories are actually quite bad and made by bad people.

I don't know why you think I would insinuate that you are a bad person, at worst you are somewhat mislead, but I have argued quite a few times that I do not think you're a racist.

[Beskar]

We decided last night to see if the thread improved, and we responded in hopes to salvage this thread, but unfortunately, some of the replies did not improve.

I think a 'little time-out' on 'Race' related threads may be in order if this is going to continue, it appears that the topic is starting to fray and wear thin on a lot of people, leading to uncivil responses.