Fate- does it exist?

[Rhyfelwyr]

There is the issue with 'meddling'. You can influence people into certain paths, but does it make it determinism if they are choosing by their freewill to take that path?

For example, in two days, Rhyfelwyr is go to his corner shop to get a scratch card which gives him 1 million pounds. He can obviously ignore this and think "Yeah, I am not doing this Beskar", but now I start working behind the scenes. I throw Rhy's milk away so he needs to pick up some more, I plant a sign that says the corner shop is giving away free milk, so he goes to the corner shop, then I get the shop keeper to give him a complimentary ticket which I planted there. Rhy takes the ticket, goes home, thinks "Why not" scratches it, wins a million.

Is that really determinism? I don't think so.

I agree, that would not be determinism. External influences don't change the fact that the person is free to make a choice in response to those influences. They are still choosing things with their own will.

[Montmorency]

I agree, that would not be determinism. External influences don't change the fact that the person is free to make a choice in response to those influences. They are still choosing things with their own will.

In fact, "influence" makes free will not merely impossible, but conceptually incoherent.

To say something is influenced by something else is just to say that the former is determined.

[Beskar]

To say something is influenced by something else is just to say that the former is determined.

But if something is determined, then nothing would be able to influence it not to be. Such as, "Montmorency will stay in home all day" is your fate, but if I put an icecream van out inside with free icecream, you may exit it, thus you invalidate the determined.

[Papewaio]

Fate probably doesn't exist and if it does Deterministic outcomes still do.

If Fate exists it is because of an outside force willfully acting on the object. If I move a vessel it is my deterministic outcome to do so, whilst it is its fate to be acted upon.

Where my vessel would be a coffee cup, a god's vessel would be a human.

=][=

Personally I think life is sufficiently chaotic and choices essentially limitless that some of us actively choose our own paths and the rest of us plod along in well worn groves of our own choice.

[Husar]

But if something is determined, then nothing would be able to influence it not to be. Such as, "Montmorency will stay in home all day" is your fate, but if I put an icecream van out inside with free icecream, you may exit it, thus you invalidate the determined.

But that you would put the ice-cream truck there was already determined, therefore your initial hypothesis of Montmorency staying at home all day was simply wrong since you did not know about the ice-cream factor in advance.

This is at best a hole in your knowledge about the future or about all the predetermined happenings and how they are inevitably going to predetermine other things but not a hole in the logic of predetermination.

[Montmorency]

But if something is determined, then nothing would be able to influence it not to be. Such as, "Montmorency will stay in home all day" is your fate, but if I put an icecream van out inside with free icecream, you may exit it, thus you invalidate the determined.

Husar is correct. A determined scenario is simply the condensate of the miasma of influences. As always, the answer lies in our ignorance.

If Fate exists it is because of an outside force willfully acting on the object.

Fate is usually considered in terms of an intentional force, but this is just an artifact of how we view ourselves. If we're going to entertain a notion of states of matter at one time exerting 'new' force on states of a prior time, then we might well imagine a situation in which the heat-death of our sun causes AskthePizzaGuy to be elected President of the United States in 2028. But that's a meaningless figment.

There are a few hacks who like to play around with the philosophy of Fate, but they always ignore both its uselessness and its obscurantism.

One of the many demerits against contemporary quantum theory is that there is a significant school within the discipline that argues for a role of Fate not dissimilar from what was in my example above.

[Strike For The South]

Fate is what people call it when they look back and try to make sense of it all.

[Visor]

Fate is what people call it when they look back and try to make sense of it all.

I like this.

I don't believe in fate myself. Things aren't already decided.