Cloning

[Husar]

So from a christian's point of view what they are doing is against the natural laws of the way things have been organized by God. Seed + egg = new life.

Why does it work then?
If they could and would clone a human, does he or she not get a soul from God because it was against God's laws? Do the animals lack a spirit because they can only acquire one from a seed? And if the seed is life then animals have a soul as well since having life means having a soul? I thought in Christianity animals are different from humans in that they do not have a soul, but you say a soul is life and animals are clearly alive, no? So if God has his rules and we assume he does not break them himself, why are cloned animals alive if their creation breaks God's rules? Can humans insert a soul into a cloned being?

[Risasi]

The scriptures are very clear in differentiating between a soul and a spirit. They are two very different things. And yes, I believe animals also have a spirit, and obviously a body. And they live a life, or soul. But I would argue they are clearly different from humans.

Ecc 3:19-21; For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. All go to death: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?

Let me ask you this. Is a virus life?

---

As for Dolly the sheep. Was she "alive"? It would appear so, and she also had offspring. But this is what is so disturbing to many of us bible believers. If not broken outright, then at the very least the laws of nature are being bent.

Elsewhere in the scriptures there are accounts of what happened last time. The mixing of different kinds of flesh, hybridization perhaps, including the irruption of the angelic race into the human genome. And all flesh on the earth having corrupted itself. The scriptures also state it will happen again. There will be ten "dead ones". They will be kings.

[Husar]

The scriptures are very clear in differentiating between a soul and a spirit. They are two very different things. And yes, I believe animals also have a spirit, and obviously a body. And they live a life, or soul. But I would argue they are clearly different from humans.

So animals do have a soul but it is different from a human soul?

Let me ask you this. Is a virus life?

I think a virus exists somewhere on the border, it is most likely not sentient life, but neither is a tree one would think. The distinction is not black and white however as there is a lot of grey. Is a plant sentient? Some plants can certainly sense certain changes in their environment, does that make them sentient beings? Viruses do certainly reproduce and even change over time. However, their "life" is a very mechanic one and one virus has to cease existing as such in order to form new ones. They have no brain etc. Basically just a protein hull with DNS that reproduces itself as much as possible. To me it is more like a machine and so is a tree, but then again so can animals and humans seem like machines, more sophisticated ones but still machines. We can clearly see how more brain etc. leads to animals which can do more sophisticated things and are "more sentient" etc. but we always try to decouple humans from this gradual progress and think this does not apply to us even though we have the same basic makeup with a stomach, a heart, lungs, a (more sophisticated) brain, etc.

If all that makes us different and more sophisticated than these animals is "a more sophisticated soul", then why does brain damage or brain altering through drugs affect us so much? Or can humans alter souls?

As for Dolly the sheep. Was she "alive"? It would appear so, and she also had offspring. But this is what is so disturbing to many of us bible believers. If not broken outright, then at the very least the laws of nature are being bent.

But if there are laws of nature, then we cannot bend them, that is the point of saying something is a law of nature. It is however possible that we thought or think that something is a law of nature when it really isn't. Because our understanding of the laws of nature is neither complete nor perfect.

Elsewhere in the scriptures there are accounts of what happened last time. The mixing of different kinds of flesh, hybridization perhaps, including the irruption of the angelic race into the human genome. And all flesh on the earth having corrupted itself. The scriptures also state it will happen again. There will be ten "dead ones". They will be kings.

Then what is the point of warning against it?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ye gads - the OP is stuck in the 16th Century.

So - first off - what he is espousing is not actually what most Christians believe. Today most Christians believe that the soul is something imparted to each individual but when this happens is hotly debated. Some contend that it happens when the sperm and the ovum come together and merge, others that it only happens when the newborn draws breath. What very few Christians believe is that it come specifically from the man's "seed" or that men are the "implanters" of life within women who are then the fertile soil within which this life grows.

Now, to be sure, the belief that the new life was contained within the man's "seed" was a popular a pre-Christian idea which, off the top of my head, can be traced back to the pre-Socratics and was popular with doctors and scientists consistently thought Classical antiquity all the way through the Renaissance only began to be challenged as more powerful microscopes were invented during the enlightenment and we began to actually understand the nature of reproduction.

Now, while there is some debate about whether a human clone would have a human soul I believe the majority answer is a definite "yes" because today we would accept that God, in Hi infinite Love would impart a soul to any thinking human and not allow them to be a monster. Where the anxiety comes is in the transgression of natural processes, which is not a specifically Christian concern - again see pre-Socratics.

The problem with cloning is that we are potentially "making" new life, we are designing it to order rather than allowing it to come inot being through the natural machinery God designed and, frankly, we don't know what we were doing. Dolly the sheep was something of a failure as a clone, she was sick and miserable for most of her life and inevitable the first batch of human clones would be the same, malformed and doomed to short painful lives.

Now, people will tell you a lot about the scientific advantages of being able to clone something but you really have to ask if we should, because the road to hell really is paved with good intetions.

[CrossLOPER]

Ye gads - the OP is stuck in the 16th Century.

Did you not see his reply to me in the other thread?

I'm probably wasting my time, but okay: Bible > Science. Scientists don't have a good track record in...ever. Heck, I remember my grade school days. When I was a wee lad they were saying the universe was 3 billion years old. Now it's 14 billion, or have they amended it again?
True science is the study of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. That does not mean it can accurately ascertain origin.
Bible is a historical account written by an eye witness. So the bible says the Lord Jesus Christ is the creator of the heavens and the earth. It says he also framed time. It also says Jesus Christ is holding the whole thing together, right now. If he didn't it would go fissionable and explode (or implode?). What it doesn't say is how old the earth actually is (it could actually be pretty old).
Approximately 6000 years ago it suffered an extreme cataclysmic event, due to the fall of an angel named Lucifer (aka Satan, the Devil, Diablos). The earth that then was being overflowed with water. It was then rebuilt and humanity was created. Then roughly 4400 years ago due to the genetic corruption and wickedness of mankind, to actually preserve the human race, there was a second worldwide flood event and the account of Noah. This was a pretty big deal, and can explain some of what we can observe through science today.
Anyway, I'm sure all of that is crazy talk to you and you should probably ignore me before I start talking more about Jesus Christ and how he is God and coming back some day to rule over all of humanity.

My claim is I have the writings of the Author of the universe as my reference. You could crack it open too, you know and actually see what it says. Although clearly that's not good enough for you. I suppose God doesn't have enough initials after his name...

He has the writings of the Author of the universe.

[Risasi]

I find it curious you guys have jumped in when I'm answering Papewaio's question...not that I mind.

Elsewhere in the scriptures there are accounts of what happened last time. The mixing of different kinds of flesh, hybridization perhaps, including the irruption of the angelic race into the human genome. And all flesh on the earth having corrupted itself. The scriptures also state it will happen again. There will be ten "dead ones". They will be kings.

Then what is the point of warning against it?

Because in this age there is a war going on. It's in an unseen war in the heavens, for the minds of men. Men that the god of this age (Satan) has blinded. And that is the point. Satan and his minions have broken the rules. Everyone has to choose sides because in the future this upside-down world will be set aright. Heed the warning or not, your choice.

Every single picture of Adam and Eve shows they have belly buttons. therefor god is not real, only satan exist.

Satan most surely exists, and precedes man in creation. And is more powerful, likely smarter since he is at least 6000 years old, and has one heck of an espionage ring. The lake of fire was prepared for Lucifer and his angels. If you wish to mock God, that is fine. Anyone who rejects the grace freely given by the Lord Jesus Christ may join Satan there come judgment day.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I find it curious you guys have jumped in when I'm answering Papewaio's question...not that I mind.

Because in this age there is a war going on. It's in an unseen war in the heavens, for the minds of men. Men that the god of this age (Satan) has blinded. And that is the point. Satan and his minions have broken the rules. Everyone has to choose sides because in the future this upside-down world will be set aright. Heed the warning or not, your choice.

Satan most surely exists, and precedes man in creation. And is more powerful, likely smarter since he is at least 6000 years old, and has one heck of an espionage ring. The lake of fire was prepared for Lucifer and his angels. If you wish to mock God, that is fine. Anyone who rejects the grace freely given by the Lord Jesus Christ may join Satan there come judgment day.

All things are within the power of the Lord, you should read the Book of Job - Satan's original name was "The Accuser" in the legal sense and, in fact, there's nothing in the Bible that makes him the enemy of God, nor is he ever actually given the name "Lucifer" that is an invention of the early medieval Church, or at best Late Antiquity.

The Book of Revelations is a Book of Prophecy from the 1st Century AD where John is shown what appear to be a set of allegorical murals (they notably lack depth, they are not three dimensional) and it has been persuasively argued that they refer to events that happened within a few decades of the prophecies being made.

Certainly, the belief that we are living in the End Times is not a new one, there are several epochs where men believed, as you do, that Satan was walking the Earth and was the driving force in human affairs - the Hunnic invasion, the Muslim invasions, most the early medieval period up to around 1100, the Black Death, the Fall of Constantinople, the 30 Years War, even World War I was believed by some to be the opening of the Time of Tribulation but time has marches pass all those periods and the End Times have not come.

So, if you are trying to frighten people into believing whatever you believe by convincing them that their souls are in imminet danger then perhaps you are the real problem, and not them.

[Husar]

Because in this age there is a war going on. It's in an unseen war in the heavens, for the minds of men. Men that the god of this age (Satan) has blinded. And that is the point. Satan and his minions have broken the rules. Everyone has to choose sides because in the future this upside-down world will be set aright. Heed the warning or not, your choice.

If god has already meticulously planned the future, how can I have a choice? My future seems to be already planned. Which was also the point of the question, if you believe this future will inevitably happen, how can you think that your warning would change anything?
And if you could prevent someone from fulfilling the prophecy, the prophecy would be unfulfilled, not a good scenario for you either.

[Veho Nex]

Satan most surely exists, and precedes man in creation. And is more powerful, likely smarter since he is at least 6000 years old, and has one heck of an espionage ring. The lake of fire was prepared for Lucifer and his angels. If you wish to mock God, that is fine. Anyone who rejects the grace freely given by the Lord Jesus Christ may join Satan there come judgment day.

You really can't expect the dude who gave us free will to do as we please to punish us because we aren't doing as he pleases? If what people say about the guy he's got thinner skin than a 13yo prep school girl. OMG Becky, did you hear what that VehoNex called me? I just, like, am totally going to condemn him to burn for all time. Yeah, that will, like, show his unfashionable butt who's boss.