Party in the USSR

[InsaneApache]

He's got Seumas Milne as his spin doctor!

Oh my giddy aunt. Labour, the gift that keeps on giving!

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...apologist.html

[Idaho]

I read that angry drivel, for my sins.

“communism in the Soviet Union, eastern Europe and elsewhere delivered rapid industrialisation, mass education, job security and huge advances in social and gender equality.” And besides, the Soviet bloc “encompassed genuine idealism and commitment”

Er.. And? That's all demonstrably true. The Soviet system wasn't some factory of evil thought control and violence. It had those two features, but fundamentally it was a successful attempt to turn an illiterate feudal country into a modern industrial one. No serious historian would contest this - only political dilettantes with little historical education - enter your man.

[InsaneApache]

I read that angry drivel, for my sins.



Er.. And? That's all demonstrably true. The Soviet system wasn't some factory of evil thought control and violence. It had those two features, but fundamentally it was a successful attempt to turn an illiterate feudal country into a modern industrial one. No serious historian would contest this - only political dilettantes with little historical education - enter your man.

Now you're just trolling you naughty boy!

[Montmorency]

communism in the Soviet Union, eastern Europe and elsewhere delivered rapid industrialisation, mass education, job security and huge advances in social and gender equality.

I guess the main complaint would be 'Er, so what?' You might as well say the same about capitalism. The post-Stalin USSR was not a hellhole or Evil Empire, but it is quite right to criticize such strident nostalgia.

And besides, the Soviet bloc “encompassed genuine idealism and commitment”

Lol what?

it was also a country of full employment, social equality, cheap housing, transport and culture, one of the best childcare systems in the world, and greater freedom in the workplace than most employees enjoy in today’s Germany.”

"Full" employment was achieved through the criminalization of unemployment, and served primarily as a tool for organizing and tracking the population while at the same time maintaining networks of patronage in a feudal-like system. Individual variation in globally-defined net worth may have been very low, but this ignores the vast inequality that existed in terms of privilege and prestige. It surprises many individuals to learn that the Soviet domestic economy operated mostly in kind rather than coin, in exchange of favors and services. Indeed, to speak of social equality in the Soviet Union while criticizing the West's lack thereof is just silly.

Housing: Always atrocious in terms of both space and utilities, but there were some bright spots in the various attempts at reform (particularly in the Khruschev era).

Transport: Fairly good, but as usual for industrial countries the emphasis was on expediting long-range travel of goods, commodities, equipment, and military units. And even then, Soviet road infrastructure was notoriously-bad throughout the century, and the capacities for rail and air transport of civilian passengers were limited.

Culture: Culture (not in the sociological but the classic sense) has always been a point of both pride and sensitivity for Russians, but it's not exactly relevant to - wait, what exactly is the question anyway?

Childcare: There were always places to drop off young kids while you went to work, I'll grant him that.

Freedom in the workplace: Hard to even respond to this one as it's not clear what this is supposed to mean or refer to.


Just seems like another contrarian pinko, peevishly detracting his own society and blindly celebrating whatever alternatives he can latch onto without giving consideration to what his own principles are or should be, and how to accordingly compare various system by them.

[Montmorency]

As for comparisons to Islamist Iran, well, it's no surprise that the language of shame and blame and sin carries over quite well.

As the 1980 Moscow Olympics approached, a Soviet official was asked whether his country would host that year’s Paralympics for the first time.

“There are no invalids in the U.S.S.R.!” he thundered back, a phrase that went down in history.

[Idaho]

Russia, in 30 years, went from being a country of illiterate peasants and feudal lords, with a thoroughly pre modern concept of time, law, manufacturing, etc. To a country that defeated the greatest military power of the age (Germany) and was the first to send an astronaut to space.

I would be the first to list the downsides, drawbacks, tyranny and lunacy of the Soviet system. But credit where credits due.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Russia, in 30 years, went from being a country of illiterate peasants and feudal lords, with a thoroughly pre modern concept of time, law, manufacturing, etc. To a country that defeated the greatest military power of the age (Germany) and was the first to send an astronaut to space.

I would be the first to list the downsides, drawbacks, tyranny and lunacy of the Soviet system. But credit where credits due.

How about:

recently praised “the innate humanity of Fidel Castro and Che Guevara’s legacy.” Since 1959, the rancid dictatorship in Cuba has consistently forgotten to hold free elections, but don’t allow ideas of democratic pluralism to undermine “the historical importance of Cuba’s struggle for social justice and sovereignty and its creative social mobilisation [which] will continue to echo beyond its time and place.”

He's a Communist Apologist, of the type which was prevalent on the Left in the 60's and 70's.

[Husar]

It all sound to me like communism had an great and strong initial push but later began to stall in terms of development.

[InsaneApache]

Russia, in 30 years, went from being a country of illiterate peasants and feudal lords, with a thoroughly pre modern concept of time, law, manufacturing, etc. To a country that defeated the greatest military power of the age (Germany) and was the first to send an astronaut to space.

I would be the first to list the downsides, drawbacks, tyranny and lunacy of the Soviet system. But credit where credits due.

There, in a nutshell, you have the leftist point of view. No matter how many people die for the 'greater good' it's the end of those meanie capitalists that counts!

....that they have the absolute gall to accuse the rest of us 'lumpen-proletariat' of having a false conscientious is breathtaking with it's hubris.

[Gilrandir]

You seem to still be confused about my point, which isn't that money did not play a role in the exchange of basic goods for individual citizens, but that its usage and function was very limited compared to Western economies outside of the exchange of hard cash for immediate transactions, and that even there living standards and actual consumption were predicated much less on the exchange of cash but on direct transfers from the government to the citizen in the form of goods, services, accomodations, and so on.

I'm afraid my confusion may be explained by your previous posts on the topic, namely:

It surprises many individuals to learn that the Soviet domestic economy operated mostly in kind rather than coin, in exchange of favors and services.

and:

The internal Soviet economy below the level of Gosplan and inter-republic balancing was extremely underdeveloped in terms of the role of monetary currency.

In those you said nothing of comparison to Western economies (although I'm not sure Western economies had such an intense money flow BACK THEN as they do NOW - but I wouldn't claim the opposite either) and direct transfers (instead you said of EXCHANGE OF FAVORS). The bolded parts were the ones I objected to. With the corrections (or explanations) you have just made it now sounds sensible.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That particular narrative comes mostly from a period of Red Scare. It has been thoroughly debunked in the last few decades.

People mentioned massive industrialization and modernisation of eastern European countries during communism. That is a fact. Mentioning it doesn't mean people aren't aware of lack of civil liberties and human rights abuses during communism, which are also facts.

You ignored that and entered into a McCarthy mode and screamed OMG MONSTER PRAISING!!!

Not really, anyone who talks of the "humanity" of Fidel Castro or "workers' rights" in Soviet Russia is engaging in revisionism.

People talk about the industrialisation of Soviet States whilst neglecting the fact that this industrialisation, as rapid as it was, did not translate into comparably improved living standards vs the West. Put simply, Soviet industrialisation was done poorly and with less care or basic humanity even than the industrialisation that produce Britain's "Satanic Mills".

In fact, I would argue that Industrialisation of Soviet States was inevitable and was probably as likely under the Tsar as Stalin, and the Tsar was a far more relaxed and benevolent ruler - which is really saying something.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If that's how you interpret the term of industrialisation, then Russia, with her mass production of weapons, was already completely industrialised, long before the revolution.
But that's a weird way of defining industrialisation, we usually prefer the importance of industry in relation with the rest of financial activities.

Well, there's "Industrialisation" where you have moved from a craft economy to mass-production and there's the Urbanisation that comes along with it. In the UK Urbanisation really kicks in between the World Wars but by that point a lot of what we used in day-to-day life was mass-produced.

By the overthrow of Tsar Nicholas II Russia already had significant industrial capacity but many things were still made by hand.

The Soviets moved everything to pass production, with often disastrous results. The Destruction of the Ural Sea being the most obvious example - the lack of a Liberal Elite means a lack of sentiment.

[rvg]

The Soviets moved everything to pass production, with often disastrous results. The Destruction of the Ural Sea being the most obvious example - the lack of a Liberal Elite means a lack of sentiment.

*cough*Aral*cough*. Oh, and it was still okay by the end of 1991. The catastrophy came after 1994 or so, once the local khans, I mean presidents, decided to drain the two rivers that the Aral Sea to the point that the rivers no longer reached the lake.